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post #181 of 271 Old 07-23-2002, 02:35 PM
 
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Michael

Why was the Digitial Leeza based on software and not hardware as you now implementing? Especially since your expertise is in hardware and any software based system had to rely on outside sources.

I am not trying to be argumentative so please don't take offense at my question. It just seems that if you had taken the hardware approach in the beginning, you would already been farther along in the road in the process,

Or was it basically live and learn. You figured your hardware and their software was the best of the two worlds and in the end while the product was a success, the partnership didn't work out.
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post #182 of 271 Old 07-23-2002, 03:30 PM
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Humey,

I think you answered it for yourself. KeyDigital's strength in hardware design and Mark R.'s strength in the software arena really brought out two fantastic products. I think "irreconcilable differences" are the reason why this partnership fell apart.

In any case, software relies on strong hardware to do the work. I don't think an HTPC solution (even an embedded one like the LEEZA design was) can provide a solution to HD scaling in an affordable way. The current PC architecture simply isn't equipt.

I'm assuming that KeyDigital wanted the best flexible SD scaler (for which the HTPC architecture is ideal) and went with a software based approach. On the HD front, no such option exist (unless you go with a completely proprietary architecture like the Terranex). The only way to do HD processing today is in hardware - the processing power that HD deinterlacing requires is simply too great of the current PC architecture (that's likely to change in a few years, but who knows where the scaling market will be at that time).

IMO, KeyDigital has taken all the good choices, but perhaps not with the best of partners.

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
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post #183 of 271 Old 07-23-2002, 05:27 PM
 
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Ofer

Forgeting about the partnership, wouldnt have KD forseen the problems with scaling HD using a software system and thus avoided it, or did they figure they would either have a new scaler by that time or an add on to fix the problem.

What advantages do you have using software over hardware aside from flexibility. And even if flexiblity is an issue, it seem like the new scaler will be pretty flexible in what it can do.

Is the issue with hardware, that once the hardware is put to its the limit, you cant go further without changing the hardware, and with software based system, the system is only limited to the design of the software

Of course software systems have their limitation also, based on what you hear UBX (take the previous letter, for example T is before U, A is before B and so on) will be doing, they will need to upgrade their hardware for their new software and had to do it previously due to processor constraints.

Maybe the issue is that a software based system, which is mostly a computer can be updated by swapping parts, just like any other computer and maybe a hardware system is not easily upgradeable.

Nu, what do you think Ofer?
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post #184 of 271 Old 07-23-2002, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Humey
Michael

Why was the Digitial Leeza based on software and not hardware as you now implementing? Especially since your expertise is in hardware and any software based system had to rely on outside sources.

I am not trying to be argumentative so please don't take offense at my question. It just seems that if you had taken the hardware approach in the beginning, you would already been farther along in the road in the process,

Or was it basically live and learn. You figured your hardware and their software was the best of the two worlds and in the end while the product was a success, the partnership didn't work out.
Hi Danny,

Its a really good question!

The scaler was designed by the forum members.
Thank you

michael@keydigital.com
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post #185 of 271 Old 07-23-2002, 06:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by michaellucky


Hi Pinkney Tuck,

I am not familiar with HTPC scaler quality or reliability. I would like to understand the product a little better: Does HTPC offer SDI inputs and/or DVI inputs?
Thank you
Setting a trap! Look, this whole thing is about scaling DVD. No need to scale HDTV and DVHS, really. Who cares about scaling NTSC and laserdiscs anymore? I don't. I don't need SDI and DVI inputs. I don't need a standalone DVD player. I will look at your scaler, out of curiosity, but honestly I don't think that it will produce a better picture for DVD than my radeon htpc. DVD is what people care on a high end front projection system.
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post #186 of 271 Old 07-23-2002, 06:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by oferlaor
Hey Pinkney Tuck,
Fascinating! The king of people who don't care about a radeon htpc are mostly professionels like you who tried to build one and failed. Their pride prevent them to have one built for them. So they go on buying $3,500 or more flawed scalers instead of buying a perfectly built and quiet and baby simple to use $1,500 htpc. Fascinating!
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post #187 of 271 Old 07-23-2002, 06:57 PM
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The reason KD is not doing a software solution with PC components is because it is prohibited due to a contractual agreement with T.A.W. on that design. [/b][/quote]


Hi Dave.


The statement above is incorrect!
Thank you

michael@keydigital.com
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post #188 of 271 Old 07-23-2002, 07:05 PM
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wow.. either Pinkney Tuck is just trolling to get people mad, or just someone that has an amazing level of ignorance packaged in a arrogant voice.

I agree with micheal, enjoy your HTPC...
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post #189 of 271 Old 07-23-2002, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pinkney Tuck


Setting a trap! Look, this whole thing is about scaling DVD. No need to scale HDTV and DVHS, really. Who cares about scaling NTSC and laserdiscs anymore? I don't. I don't need SDI and DVI inputs. I don't need a standalone DVD player. I will look at your scaler, out of curiosity, but honestly I don't think that it will produce a better picture for DVD than my radeon htpc. DVD is what people care on a high end front projection system.
Dear Pinkney Tuck

Enjoy your HTPC!
Thank you

michael@keydigital.com
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post #190 of 271 Old 07-23-2002, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Fascinating! The king of people who don't care about a radeon htpc are mostly professionels like you who tried to build one and failed. Their pride prevent them to have one built for them. So they go on buying $3,500 or more flawed scalers instead of buying a perfectly built and quiet and baby simple to use $1,500 htpc. Fascinating!
That's a good bit of hyperbole there. I moved from an HTPC to the Leeza, and I would imagine I know easily as much about the subject as you, and had no trouble building them or maintaining them. The issue is ease of use and maintaining stability. It is extremely easy to have an HTPC that's working perfectly and upgrade a driver, or install some seemingly unrelated applications, and have it go to hell. The Leeza also provides video switching (I have 2 HD sources in addition to the SDI DVD player) and format transcoding, so it has a number of uses.

I don't think anyone argues that the picture differences between a good HTPC and a good digital scaler are all that noticeable. Its not about picture quality for many people, its about convenices, instant on vs boot up, no maintenance vs. endless tweaking, etc... They aren't giving up any picture quality, and they are gaining a good bit more convenience.

And HTPC software components are not very well designed for automation because the folks writing them aren't really thinking much about that part of it.

Dean Roddey
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post #191 of 271 Old 07-24-2002, 12:52 AM
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Hey,

DHarp,

OK, I'll bite:
1. I know that *you*know*who* wants to come out with a scaler by Cedia 2003 (is that Sept. 2003 or April?)

2. Mathematically, it is simply not possible to do uncompressed HD on the PCI bus. You'd need at least 2:1 (3:1 to be on the safe side) compression to do that.

3. the combination of ClearMatrix and Y/C delay correction requires a high speed processor (in fact, it required a serious update in hardware). Now, how will deinterlacing of something at least 4 times the size of the NTSC signal process? You'll need a REALLY fast (read: hot/fan noise/pricey) processor for that much power. Granted, by next year, another bus might be available and processor speeds might go up, and prices come down. Still it will be mondo expensive and who knows how it will perform (particularly if you improve on ClearMatrix with something else more processor intensive!).

4. About that software "design" - do you mean the design of an HTPC? that's basically what the scaler you're selling is - an embedded HTPC. Do you own a patent on that "design". I think not, you were hardly the first ones to come out with an HTPC.

I guess we'll see where we are in 2003. In the mean time, will customers wait around to see, will they buy any more processors knowing that the architecture is going to be doomed in a few months? Will the market care for HD scalers, or want just SD scalers. God only knows... We'll have to wait and see.

Humey,

There's no question, regarding feature flexibility, software is much superior over hardware. If there are bugs in the deinterlacing software, you can replace the deinterlacing software and fix the bugs. Bugs in hardware are difficult to correct at best. Deinterlacing algorithms are even more difficult to correct (unless it's a DSP type solution which is neither hardware nor software). Not sure what KeyDigital is using - it could be a DSP type processor (dedicated high speed processor that specializes in signal processing). Rolling out new options and features will surely be more difficult for KeyDigital than with a software solution.

Both solutions, hardware and software, are limited by what's required of them. In software, if you ask it to do too much and it can't make it on time, you have to upgrade your hardware (e.g., Rock+).

Obviously, I'm talking in a void. KeyDigital could be using FPGAs (which can be reconfigured through software...) or DSPs, or who-knows-what to carry out the deinterlacing. Right now, that's the only way to do HD deinterlacing (short of rebuilding the entire PC architecture).

I don't think it's a mistake to do SD in software and HD in hardware. Why should the two ideas conflict? I still think a software platform is ideal for whatever it can cope with (in terms of performance).

Pinkney Tuck,

So, TV viewing is for "suckers", aye? I like watching TV. I watch PVR, I watch stuff from VCR occaionally. There are people (not me, sadly) who watch HD. Your solution, as I see it covers 1/5th of a normal viewing experience. Pretty good waste of money, if you ask me.

I didn't buy my HT just for watching DVDs, although it's a very important part of my system. I want it to shine when I watch ANYTHING at all.

I think you're in the wrong forum - go to the HTPC forum, where you'll find others who watch nothing but DVDs.

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
www.hometheater.co.il
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post #192 of 271 Old 07-24-2002, 05:15 AM
 
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Scaled TV is just unwatchable on a G90 projection system when you get used to anamorphic DVD. DVD do represent 99% of the normal viewing experience of people with such a system. Contrary to some other parts of the world, DVDs are plentiful and readily available here in the US. What we are looking for is to get the best picture and the best way to achieve this, to me, is with a radeon htpc. I have a small and more pedestrian 1080i RPTV to watch the news and sports in HD or not during the day and it scales the picture just fine (I don't care). No need for an outboard scaler. As for plasmas who do need scaling, in my opinion, they are not good enough for DVD and movies in general, including DVHS, and a waste of money for news and sports.
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post #193 of 271 Old 07-24-2002, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pinkney Tuck
Scaled TV is just unwatchable on a G90 projection system when you get used to anamorphic DVD. DVD do represent 99% of the normal viewing experience of people with such a system.
So now you're an expert on the viewing habits of G90 owners? Funny, I never got the survey. Besides, what a stupid thing to say--HDTV is a fairly large part of the viewing experience of the G90 owners I know, and that's precisely why I'm following this thread.

For the record, I have a G90 and I do use an HTPC for DVD viewing--TT plus a Mike Parker Radeon 7500 MP-1 card (actually, a beta of the current card). For film-based DVDs, it produces an outstanding picture. For any video-based content or the occassional bad edit/flag, it sucks a$$. My Digital Connection HTPC has been tweaked by the gods and it still locks up every now and then--I put up with it because I feel it throws the best possible DVD picture for my display, short of moving to a Teranex.

That said, I (and a lot of fellow 9" CRT owners) are on the hunt for affordable high performance 1080i deinterlacing, and the new HD Leeza may be the answer we are looking for. HTPCs can't handle this task...HD processing is the purvue of scalers. If the Key Digital unit can do what I want, I'll buy it for it's HD processing alone. If it even comes close to my HTPC DVD PQ, I'll chuck the HTPC in a heartbeat--if it doesn't, the two will coexist, but I can bet you I'll be watching a lot less scaled DVD and a lot more deinterlaced/scaled HDTV.

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post #194 of 271 Old 07-24-2002, 07:37 AM
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Pinkney Tuck,

LOL, you can't be serious. Wait... You are serious...

I love your reasoning. I stand on my head and eat strawberries for all three meals, therefor 99% of all other people in the universe must do the same. Make sense...

FYI, if people weren't watching TV, commercial TV stations would be out of business... I dare say that most people with a high end system are NOT watching 99% DVD.

In addition, some HD sequences I've seen in the past look MUCH better than DVD. HTPC cannot keep up with HD and basically alot of pixels are simply thrown away in the process of viewing.

In addition, I am a big stutter hater. If the PC is doing something ("Thinking") - i.e., retrieving something from the harddrive, a stutter occurs (i.e., loss of 1 frame or more), and that would drive me NUTS.

Anyway, having 1 TV for sports and another for DVD might be OK for some. There's certainly not enough rooms in my house for that... I don't think every family should have 1 TV for sports, another for sitcoms and a third for DVDs. Pickney, I don't think you'd fit into any statistics of "normal" TV viewing.

Isn't there a "special" forum for people that watch 99% DVDs, on HTPCs, and have a separate TV for "other" types of viewings? Pickney, you should create a website called www.IHaveAnHtpcForDVDsAndAnotherTVForSports.com ...

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
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post #195 of 271 Old 07-24-2002, 04:19 PM
 
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Dave

When you say that KD is contractually prohibited from producing a PC based scaler, do you mean using *** licensed software or any PC based scaler using any software created by anyone?

If the latter is true, that is pretty harsh
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post #196 of 271 Old 07-24-2002, 04:37 PM
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I'm not sure the specifics of that contract are anyone's business but the parties to it, to be honest. I would also guess (but don't know of course) that there's a confidentiality provision in there that would, ahem, "discourage" the parties from discussing it.

Cheers
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post #197 of 271 Old 07-24-2002, 05:09 PM
 
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Joel, I agree with you, but hey he brought it up, not me
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post #198 of 271 Old 07-24-2002, 05:23 PM
 
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Thanks for the answer. I know you are just a dealer (using the word "just always makes something sound bad) so I know you arent necessarily privy to everything. I think we all know that the KD software came from T*W which came from Mark R, but something has to be said for the KD hardware.

Anyway, I guess the prohibition makes sense as KD could have dropped the T*W software a year later but used the knowledge to build another software based scaler and gone around the agreement with T*W

The question then is if the Rock has the same inovations as the Leeza, why didnt it win the same awards
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post #199 of 271 Old 07-24-2002, 06:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by oferlaor
Pinkney Tuck,

LOL, you can't be serious. Wait... You are serious...

I[/url] ...
I said scaled TV. You were talking about TV, not HDTV. Scaled NTSC TV does look like **** on a big screen. No need of a scaler for HDTV. That was my point. Do you have HDTV in Israel anyway? I don't think so. I just purchased a JVC 30K and of course It will be used with the G90. Watching News and Sports is a different story. I do that in a lighted room while doing something else. No need for a fancy projector in a dark room. Anyway, I am not a big sports fan and I could not care less about Barbara Wawa, Sam Donalson and Larry King. Nothing original here. Who turns on his G90 just to watch the News:D :D ?? Let's count.
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post #200 of 271 Old 07-24-2002, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DHarp193


Michael,

The reason KD is not doing it may not be solely due to said agreement, but you and I both know that this agreement exists and KD cannot do a PC based software scaler without the OK from T.A.W., so this is surely one reason that you are not going that route on your new design. That was part of the deal when you partnered with T.A.W. to release the Leeza.

I do however wish you luck with your new scaler and I KNOW it will be a great one and well worth the price of admission:)!!! If only because of one Mr. Mike Tsinberg and his wealth of knowledge and passion for his customers, as well as your own. Great Job guys:cool:!!!
Hi Dave,

I Thank you for the compliments and for all the information!

Dave about the agreement issue: What ever makes you happy is fine with me, i will not argue about a dead end issue.
Thank you

michael@keydigital.com
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post #201 of 271 Old 07-24-2002, 07:37 PM
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Hi Michael:)!!!

No problem about the compliments, they are WELL deserved, I must say!!!

It's not about my happiness. It's just so everyone can be on a level playing field here. There is no argument from me, just trying to clear up some innacuracies and speculation. Now that that is done, I agree it is a dead issue. Until of course, Ofer chimes in again:rolleyes:

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post #202 of 271 Old 07-24-2002, 07:38 PM
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I am in the market for a new scaler and with all the mudslinging you would think that there was an election coming up! So far my vote goes for the HD LEEZA! Just solely based on the Michaels cool and non-venomous answers to all questions! Power buy or not I want a HD LEEZA!! See ya at CEDIA for the preview! And YES I mostly watch HD satelite and rarely watch DVD's! Helfy!!!!

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post #203 of 271 Old 07-24-2002, 07:46 PM
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Originally posted by Pinkney Tuck No need of a scaler for HDTV....I just purchased a JVC 30K and of course It will be used with the G90.
You must not know much about your own projector. On a G90, 1080i/60 has mild-to-bad interlacing issues that are quite noticeable. 720p/60 has obvious scanlines. This is my whole friggin point: you need an external scaler to optimize the HDTV video signal for the G90. The ideal is 1080p/72 for 1080i/60 or 720p/60 film (with 3:2 processing), 1080p/60 for 1080i/60 or 720p/60 video. The only way to get this is with a scaler. Not an HTPC. A scaler. Hopefully like the forthcoming HD Leeza.

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post #204 of 271 Old 07-24-2002, 08:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by amillians
720p/60 film (with 3:2 processing)
720p/60 for film with 3:2 is not enough on a G90.
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post #205 of 271 Old 07-24-2002, 11:56 PM
 
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ofer,

my htpc has sdi in, has been running for six months without even the slightest hiccup, has no windows icons, only a movie based splash screen and comes on instantly when i pop a dvd in the player (denon 3300 w/sdi). It is also fully controlled by my pronto, including dscaler. i have not touched it or tweaked it since it was built. it cost less than $1,500. it produces a dvd image that is better than any scaler i have tested, including the rock and leeza. you and Pinckney have completely different set-ups and needs. A plasma in your living room is quite a different animal than a g90 on a 100"+ screen in a dedicated theater. i have a similar set-up and only watch tv that is digital sd or hdtv. usually sports. i am not interested in regular tv or cable in my home theater. and i certainly don't watch vhs or ld. i have a little 50" to watch that. a scaler that can do a little of everything is probably right for you. but you two are comparing apples and oranges. i am with pinckney in that i watch 99% dvd and hdtv in my dedicated home theater and everything else on the "kids" tv. if i only had a small display device that i used for everything, i would need something different.

i'm not sure why some people are so interested in de-interlacing hdtv 1080i. few people on this forum have displays that would benifit from this and the few that have tried it with the vigatec have reported being unimpressed.(unless i missed something)
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post #206 of 271 Old 07-25-2002, 12:41 AM
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Hey,

Dave,

Since neither you nor I have seen the contract, I will not "chime in" again on this particular issue... I would guess that KeyDigital knows what they can or cannot do & have sufficient legal assistance to help them determine if they can do it or not. Even if they can't, there are countless legal ways around such a provision, such as someone else openning a company and licensing ClearMatrix & another board and reselling it back to KeyDigital. I'm not sure that such a contractual obligation can REALLY be enforced if KeyDigital were determined to produce a software based scaler.

Sorry, my whoops about CES. For some reason I saw CES and thought CEDIA... CES aint that far off, you're right - 5 months should be enough time for Phil make a serious effort. Lets see what you guys come up with!

About the technical aspects. You are starting to sound like Phil ("think out of the box", "who said anything about..."). Instead of offering critique to my statements - I would recommend you get some real info from Phil (assuming he has it). I assume he knows how he plans to drive HD into the PC. If so, revealing the basic technology should not hurt anything. A single straight answer wouldn't hurt.

Pickney,

No, we don't have HDTV. PAL on my plasma doesn't look that great, but it does look ALOT better when scaled. On a friend's 100" screen (using Sharp 9000), TV does NOT look all that horrible. I guess the Sharp has a good scaler inside.

Anyway, the whole point of scalers, these days, is to drive an ideal image down to the display's native rate. If you don't think you need a scaler, you'll get no argument from me. As James Bond said, your application and mine are completely different - there's no point in comparing or using the same hardware for such different needs.

James,

I understand, but without TV, your setup is not of use to me. Are you using silk SDI with DScaler? If your PC is basically used as a scaler? If so, why do you need a computer instead of something like the Rock (lower cost?). I mean, it sounds like you're using your computer to convert SDI to native rate (i.e., there's nothing else working short of DScaler, right?) - why would you need a remote for it? Anyway, it sounds like your application is very similar to Pickney's - i.e., virtually no TV. Obviously, that's not applicable for me - I would like to scale up my PAL sources (PVR and satellite).

How would you resolve HDTV (or do you also think that 1080i does not require deinterlacing)?

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
www.hometheater.co.il
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post #207 of 271 Old 07-25-2002, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
it produces a dvd image that is better than any scaler i have tested, including the rock and leeza
I found the image from my Radeon HTPC and the Leeza/SDI-DVD to be pretty much the same. I can't see where you would have found any significant differences.

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post #208 of 271 Old 07-25-2002, 07:25 AM
 
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ofer,

yes, i understand my set-up is no use to you. that is my point. you and pickney(and me) have very different set-ups. and very different needs. we essentially have two set-ups. one for film based dvd and hdtv and one for "lesser" sources. you have only one and need it to do it all. very different and no need to argue. i am using silk sdi w/dscaler. i am using it as a scaler only. i am not using the rock, because the picture is better on film and i no longer need the other features. the lower price is a bonus. i can use my pronto on all of my equipment. i don't need to use it on the htpc because it's always on and dscaler open. i just mentioned it because you said you needed an htpc that you could use your pronto on. i have watched much hdtv on my set-up and the picture can be the best i have ever seen. i have never seen it de-interlaced but have read here it is soft. i am very happy with the hdtv i have seen and project it as is. pretty much the only sd or hd i watch is sports and i'm not as critical of the picture as fil.

dean,

i'm not sure why your htpc doesn't look better than a leeza on film based material. it should. i remember when mike p came over last year with a $500 htpc at 450mhz that rivalled my rock in sharpness, backround detail,ringing, banding ect. it had major problems and was not ready for prime time. that was along time ago, most of those problems are worked out and my htpc with sdi and a mike modded radeon smokes the rock and leeza in most categories. this has been confirmed by several on this forum including, mike p., kd4,mark haflich and at least a half a dozen more. i don't know how your htpc is set-up, but i would look there for the difference. if you don't need all the features, and you mostly watch film based dvd's and pass-through stuff like hd or video games, i haven't seen anything to beat this htpc. and i have seen most of them on excellant displays. i don't know what display you have, but it might not be as noticable on say a plasma or sharp 9000.
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post #209 of 271 Old 07-25-2002, 09:32 AM
 
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Dave, you are welcome anytime, in fact i think you have been invited several times. you might want to wait a few weeks. my rock is in need of repair, i am having my blue tube rebuilt and mike is about to install the final version of his card in my htpc. alot of things happening right now.
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post #210 of 271 Old 07-25-2002, 10:22 AM
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Great, thanks James:)!!!

In fact, I was invited once, but was doing an install that day and couldn't make it. I was told that I would receive an email or PM when the next showing was, but haven't received anything yet, so I wait with baited breath;)!!!

What are the symptoms on your Rock??? Maybe I can assist? Send me a PM or email at harperhometheater@comcast.net and we can work this out hopefully.

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