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new Key scaler

15K views 270 replies 48 participants last post by  Joel 
#1 ·
lifted from the other thread:


"if you bundle a sdi modded player with your new scaler and a very, very short sdi cable you can charge $10,000...oops, you would have to only allow one output rate...oops, not scaling of p or 1080i, or..."


sounds like a very interesting and much more involving alternative to the faroudja DCS.
 
#202 ·
I am in the market for a new scaler and with all the mudslinging you would think that there was an election coming up! So far my vote goes for the HD LEEZA! Just solely based on the Michaels cool and non-venomous answers to all questions! Power buy or not I want a HD LEEZA!! See ya at CEDIA for the preview! And YES I mostly watch HD satelite and rarely watch DVD's! Helfy!!!!
 
#203 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Pinkney Tuck No need of a scaler for HDTV....I just purchased a JVC 30K and of course It will be used with the G90.
You must not know much about your own projector. On a G90, 1080i/60 has mild-to-bad interlacing issues that are quite noticeable. 720p/60 has obvious scanlines. This is my whole friggin point: you need an external scaler to optimize the HDTV video signal for the G90. The ideal is 1080p/72 for 1080i/60 or 720p/60 film (with 3:2 processing), 1080p/60 for 1080i/60 or 720p/60 video. The only way to get this is with a scaler. Not an HTPC. A scaler. Hopefully like the forthcoming HD Leeza.
 
#205 ·
ofer,


my htpc has sdi in, has been running for six months without even the slightest hiccup, has no windows icons, only a movie based splash screen and comes on instantly when i pop a dvd in the player (denon 3300 w/sdi). It is also fully controlled by my pronto, including dscaler. i have not touched it or tweaked it since it was built. it cost less than $1,500. it produces a dvd image that is better than any scaler i have tested, including the rock and leeza. you and Pinckney have completely different set-ups and needs. A plasma in your living room is quite a different animal than a g90 on a 100"+ screen in a dedicated theater. i have a similar set-up and only watch tv that is digital sd or hdtv. usually sports. i am not interested in regular tv or cable in my home theater. and i certainly don't watch vhs or ld. i have a little 50" to watch that. a scaler that can do a little of everything is probably right for you. but you two are comparing apples and oranges. i am with pinckney in that i watch 99% dvd and hdtv in my dedicated home theater and everything else on the "kids" tv. if i only had a small display device that i used for everything, i would need something different.


i'm not sure why some people are so interested in de-interlacing hdtv 1080i. few people on this forum have displays that would benifit from this and the few that have tried it with the vigatec have reported being unimpressed.(unless i missed something)
 
#206 ·
Hey,


Dave,


Since neither you nor I have seen the contract, I will not "chime in" again on this particular issue... I would guess that KeyDigital knows what they can or cannot do & have sufficient legal assistance to help them determine if they can do it or not. Even if they can't, there are countless legal ways around such a provision, such as someone else openning a company and licensing ClearMatrix & another board and reselling it back to KeyDigital. I'm not sure that such a contractual obligation can REALLY be enforced if KeyDigital were determined to produce a software based scaler.


Sorry, my whoops about CES. For some reason I saw CES and thought CEDIA... CES aint that far off, you're right - 5 months should be enough time for Phil make a serious effort. Lets see what you guys come up with!


About the technical aspects. You are starting to sound like Phil ("think out of the box", "who said anything about..."). Instead of offering critique to my statements - I would recommend you get some real info from Phil (assuming he has it). I assume he knows how he plans to drive HD into the PC. If so, revealing the basic technology should not hurt anything. A single straight answer wouldn't hurt.


Pickney,


No, we don't have HDTV. PAL on my plasma doesn't look that great, but it does look ALOT better when scaled. On a friend's 100" screen (using Sharp 9000), TV does NOT look all that horrible. I guess the Sharp has a good scaler inside.


Anyway, the whole point of scalers, these days, is to drive an ideal image down to the display's native rate. If you don't think you need a scaler, you'll get no argument from me. As James Bond said, your application and mine are completely different - there's no point in comparing or using the same hardware for such different needs.


James,


I understand, but without TV, your setup is not of use to me. Are you using silk SDI with DScaler? If your PC is basically used as a scaler? If so, why do you need a computer instead of something like the Rock (lower cost?). I mean, it sounds like you're using your computer to convert SDI to native rate (i.e., there's nothing else working short of DScaler, right?) - why would you need a remote for it? Anyway, it sounds like your application is very similar to Pickney's - i.e., virtually no TV. Obviously, that's not applicable for me - I would like to scale up my PAL sources (PVR and satellite).


How would you resolve HDTV (or do you also think that 1080i does not require deinterlacing)?
 
#207 ·
Quote:
it produces a dvd image that is better than any scaler i have tested, including the rock and leeza
I found the image from my Radeon HTPC and the Leeza/SDI-DVD to be pretty much the same. I can't see where you would have found any significant differences.
 
#208 ·
ofer,


yes, i understand my set-up is no use to you. that is my point. you and pickney(and me) have very different set-ups. and very different needs. we essentially have two set-ups. one for film based dvd and hdtv and one for "lesser" sources. you have only one and need it to do it all. very different and no need to argue. i am using silk sdi w/dscaler. i am using it as a scaler only. i am not using the rock, because the picture is better on film and i no longer need the other features. the lower price is a bonus. i can use my pronto on all of my equipment. i don't need to use it on the htpc because it's always on and dscaler open. i just mentioned it because you said you needed an htpc that you could use your pronto on. i have watched much hdtv on my set-up and the picture can be the best i have ever seen. i have never seen it de-interlaced but have read here it is soft. i am very happy with the hdtv i have seen and project it as is. pretty much the only sd or hd i watch is sports and i'm not as critical of the picture as fil.


dean,


i'm not sure why your htpc doesn't look better than a leeza on film based material. it should. i remember when mike p came over last year with a $500 htpc at 450mhz that rivalled my rock in sharpness, backround detail,ringing, banding ect. it had major problems and was not ready for prime time. that was along time ago, most of those problems are worked out and my htpc with sdi and a mike modded radeon smokes the rock and leeza in most categories. this has been confirmed by several on this forum including, mike p., kd4,mark haflich and at least a half a dozen more. i don't know how your htpc is set-up, but i would look there for the difference. if you don't need all the features, and you mostly watch film based dvd's and pass-through stuff like hd or video games, i haven't seen anything to beat this htpc. and i have seen most of them on excellant displays. i don't know what display you have, but it might not be as noticable on say a plasma or sharp 9000.
 
#209 ·
Dave, you are welcome anytime, in fact i think you have been invited several times. you might want to wait a few weeks. my rock is in need of repair, i am having my blue tube rebuilt and mike is about to install the final version of his card in my htpc. alot of things happening right now.
 
#210 ·
Great, thanks James:)!!!


In fact, I was invited once, but was doing an install that day and couldn't make it. I was told that I would receive an email or PM when the next showing was, but haven't received anything yet, so I wait with baited breath;)!!!


What are the symptoms on your Rock??? Maybe I can assist? Send me a PM or email at harperhometheater@comcast.net and we can work this out hopefully.
 
#211 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Pinkney Tuck
720p/60 for film with 3:2 is not enough on a G90.
Read my post again, S-L-O-W-L-Y. I'm talking about taking 720p/60 film to 1080p/72 (frame tripled 1080p/24). I know 720p shows scanlines on a G90. Why do you think I'm waiting to see what the HD Leeza can do for me--for my health? Plus if you admit that 720p shows scanlines on a G90, then your whole "I don't need a scaler" position pretty much falls apart, n'est-ce pas?

Quote:
Originally posted by James Bond
i'm not sure why some people are so interested in de-interlacing hdtv 1080i. few people on this forum have displays that would benifit from this and the few that have tried it with the vigatec have reported being unimpressed.(unless i missed something)
Yes, HD deinterlacing/scaling is a niche product and will likely remain so--still, I am happy KD and others are willing to tap into this market. The Vigatec (at least the old model, based on numerous insider reports/observations) filtered vertical resolution when deinterlacing 1080i, yielding something akin to 1400x1080p. The new Dune F-powered unit should fare better--can't wait to see. I used to own a DVP5000, but found that it introduced its own PQ anomalies (due to synch line noise), and I sold it, as Faroudja said it was operating to spec; plus, it was an absurb amount of cash at the time in light of the pel mel HD content available. Even the mighty Teranex 6u can't give me what I want (I can't use 1080p/24 HD-SDI, and there are no commercially available frame triplers/DACs to be had)...so the possibility that KD can give me even close to nirvana for such a small investment is *very* intriguing.
 
#212 ·
Hey James,


Agreed 100%.



Hey Dave,


I can see what you're saying about the NDA. Sorry about "pushing you to the edge", I didn't know that item was under NDA. It's probably frustrating as hell not being able to tell anyone.


I'm basically out of guesses, since the only thing I can think of that wasn't mentioned before (i.e., doing the deinterlacing in hardware, DSP, multiprocessors and compression on the PCI bus) is a dedicated, customized AGP card that works both as a display card and a video input card. That would be able to input the data as required (AGP bus is pretty good with that), but wouldn't be able to improve processing speeds. The only other option is the DSP/Hardware route. Anyway, I'm done speculating - let me know when Phil comes out with real data.


About Phil, I think he earned it all by himself. I was a big *you*know*who* supporter and bought a rock myself. What turned me around was unacceptable behavior, smug superior attitude and nasty stuff I hear all the time from customers and others who've had dealings with Phil.


I'm not the only one rubbed the wrong way - this is why Phil has been kicked out of this very forum and his company we "dare not speak his name" anymore. Phil is definitely a visionary, but his biggest mistake was not just running his company - but talking with customers directly. His type of personality needs to be as out of distance from customers as possible (i.e., no email, no forums, etc.). Deniz should have been running the PR show, not Phil.


Anyway, we've been diverted long enough. As one of the focal points of this debate, I'm dropping this subject matter and returning to the main topic.


Does anyone have any information if the unit will come in black or silver, or both? Jlm?
 
#213 ·
i have signed a nda with key and cannot reveal their true colors ;); ask dharp to ask deniz to ask phil, or ask ericbee to ask bogdan.


i'm not in the loop.
 
#214 ·
John


I have a nda with KD also. My problem is that I have another nda that prohibits talking about my first nda.


Damn I screwed up, I just told you about my nda


John, would you be willing to sign an agreement that prohibts you talking about my first nda. Although my second nda prohibits discussion of my first nda, I dont have a third nda that prohibits discussion of my second nda, so that one is okay to talk about.
 
#219 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by amillians
your whole "I don't need a scaler" position pretty much falls apart, n'est-ce pas?
Pas du tout! It would still be 99 % DVDs and 1% DVHS, vu le catalogue. I watch news and sports on a small rptv, remember. I would rather wait for 1080P DVHS until the cows fly before buying a scaler.
 
#222 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by oferlaor
Pickney Tuck,

Then what the $@% are you doing on our forum?!
You mentionned on this thread, on this video processor board, that you were "surrounded by computers". Like all computer geeks who tried to build a radeon htpc by themselves, and failed, you now disparage the htpc platform. In the mean time you tried The Rock and had to return it. Now you want to try the Leeza HD. What about having someone build a Radeon htpc for you? It will cost you only $1,500. And the picture is to die for. That's all I am saying.
 
#223 ·
Pickney,


We've run this topic to the ground (and this is the wrong thread for it) - start a new (HTPC vs. embedded scalers) and I'll happily participate. Again, you must realize that my application is completely different than yours, why can't you accept that your solution may not be the perfect one for everyone?!


Immersive's new scaling card makes things much easier than things were before. I'll want to see how much integrators will sell a complete system before making I can say if it's worth a try or not.
 
#224 ·
Last minute addition:


HD-SDI


the "Puppy" does not have dvi in.

http://www.groveplasma.com/TORUS%20SCREENING.jpg


Quoting Chris:"1080P24 directly in, 72 refresh. YES refresh DOES matter on the D-ILA."


Can an HD-sdi unit be available (1080p 24 at 72.)


I refuse to sell a Teranex for dvd's only.


Down to 1 DVD, and proud of it!



I am dreaming up a 3 zone system, The "Puppy" in the theater HD-sdi, and two 73" inch Fujitsus DVI in Family and Master Bedroom.




Bring on the multiroom HD server too!
 
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