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post #1 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 03:31 AM - Thread Starter
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lifted from the other thread:

"if you bundle a sdi modded player with your new scaler and a very, very short sdi cable you can charge $10,000...oops, you would have to only allow one output rate...oops, not scaling of p or 1080i, or..."

sounds like a very interesting and much more involving alternative to the faroudja DCS.

john
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post #2 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 06:30 AM
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Hi Ofer,

answer from the other thread: the matrix switcher will have rs 232 and IR as well. It will switch component video as well as PCM audio. 8inputs to 3 outputs, with a fancy plate.

The scaler will have these inputs
2 s-video
2 composite
2 component
1 rgbhv
1 dvi/htcp
1 sdi

if you notice we added dvi input, however, it is our position that sdi output from dvd to sdi input on the scaler will outperform dvi out to dvi in. The reason for this, is because SDI is only 480i so we take a clean source and scale it, and with dvi output it is already progressive source that is being processed to NT resolution of display. So by using SDI output we actually take out the extra step.

Does DCS have any digital inputs, like SDI or DVI?
Thank you

michael@keydigital.com
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post #3 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 07:02 AM
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Hi Michael,

Wow, very nicely done on the matrix switcher! One important thing is discrete input selection on the matrix switcher - so that people with pronto remotes can discretely select a particular input/output combination!

The same applies to the scaler: discrete ON/OFF, channel selection and aspect ratios. It's not that hard to do, but companies, for some reason are dismissing this critical feature and we get TOADs (toggle only devices) :(

About the DVI, am I to understand you'll be SCALING DVI, not just passing it through?

BTW, will you be offering the DVI blaster option on this unit? Is it an add-on feature? What plasmas does it support?

Jlm,

I'm in complete agreement - this sounds like a much higher potential idea than DCS.

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
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post #4 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 08:10 AM
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Michael:

Sounds like a great product.

Just to clarify the terminology, though, can you please explain what you mean by a matrix switcher versus a scaler. It sounds like it’s both, but I find the words confusing.

BTW: the DCS has DVI in (pass through only) and DVI out, according to the documentation. No support for SDI, though.

Thanks.
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post #5 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 08:44 AM
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This new scaler sounds very exciting!!
Are the S-video connections BNC, or the normal S-video connections??
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post #6 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by oferlaor
Hi Michael,

Wow, very nicely done on the matrix switcher! One important thing is discrete input selection on the matrix switcher - so that people with pronto remotes can discretely select a particular input/output combination!

The same applies to the scaler: discrete ON/OFF, channel selection and aspect ratios. It's not that hard to do, but companies, for some reason are dismissing this critical feature and we get TOADs (toggle only devices) :(

About the DVI, am I to understand you'll be SCALING DVI, not just passing it through?

BTW, will you be offering the DVI blaster option on this unit? Is it an add-on feature? What plasmas does it support?

Jlm,

I'm in complete agreement - this sounds like a much higher potential idea than DCS.
Hi Ofer,

Yes we will have discrete selections on Matrix switcher and on new scaler.

The unit will scale any DVI input including 480p, 720p, and 1080i to DVI output. So basicallly it will scale any input up, down and cross convert.

The unit will have DVI Blaster, so it will work without any problem with all displays that have DVI inputs. We making the scaler extremely user friendly to Pioneer Plasma's, and we will be able to support Pioneer Plasma in Native Rate in DVI.

The unit will have 17 most common resolutions. This unit is based 95% on hardware and not software and we will be able to have firmware upgrades via internet.

Thank you

michael@keydigital.com
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post #7 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jim Boden
Michael:

Sounds like a great product.

Just to clarify the terminology, though, can you please explain what you mean by a matrix switcher versus a scaler. It sounds like it’s both, but I find the words confusing.

BTW: the DCS has DVI in (pass through only) and DVI out, according to the documentation. No support for SDI, though.

Thanks.
Hi Jim,

As you probably know, our last scaler digital LEEZA is a scaler and A/V switcher. The new product will be a stand alone scaler and a stand alone component matrix switcher. The reason, for this is simple, lets say a dealer sells a Faroudja scaler, he can still specify my switcher $1499 Retail into the job. However when digital LEEZA $7K was scaler/switcher the dealer who sold a Faroudja would not specify digital LEEZA as a switcher since it would be an overkill. So to summarize regardless which scaler dealer sells, KD will still get a small piece of the action on providing 8to3 matrix switcher, since most installations require a switcher.

SO DCS has DVI input as a passthrough! Thats great, look at my comments above about DVI vs SDI. Nevertheless we will have both SDI and DVI and we will scale DVI up, down or cross convert. Basically what you see happening here is simple logic, since its hard for a smaller (KD, Vigatec, TAW) manufacturer to have 5 different scaler sku's like F NR, F2000, F 3000, F5000, DCS, etc... It is easier to make 1 box that will do what all 5 do and more for a reasobale price. This is the only way to compete against company's who have the bigger market share. Eventually the bigger company begins to feel threatened and usually the first sign of this, is when a bigger manufacturer begins to OEM his/her valuable possession "technology". If you cant beat them sell to them:-)
Thank you

michael@keydigital.com
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post #8 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cclear
This new scaler sounds very exciting!!
Are the S-video connections BNC, or the normal S-video connections??
Hi Cclear

I think they are BNC
Thank you

michael@keydigital.com
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post #9 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 09:45 AM
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Michael,
For plasma panels that presently have a DVI input, and are not HDPC compliant, will it be possible for Key to make the following feature into your new scaler:
Take the HDPC DVI output of a DSS unit and output a regular non HDPC DVI signal? Just wondering, thanks.

mark

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post #10 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 09:59 AM
 
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Michael

Mayber I am dense, but are you saying that the this will basically be a two piece unit, a switcher and a scaler. so If you want to buy the scaler, do you need the switcher and if not, in what situation would you not need the switcher. For example, I have the Leeza, if I wanted to upgrade, would I just need the scaler portion or would I need both scaler and switcher

thanks
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post #11 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 10:30 AM
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Hi Mark,

From technical point its no brainer but from legal point, its a problem, I think, i am not up to date on what is happening with HDCP.
Thank you

michael@keydigital.com
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post #12 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 11:38 AM
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Legally (*he said stepping gingerly into this*), to strip out the HDCP codes and send the info via DVI "in the clear" would likely be viewed by the content providers as a copyright violation. On OTA HD broadcasts, or anything coming in via DVI that is not copy-protected, what MBurnstein suggests will be fine.

The interesting question for KD is this: how will the new scaler handle material coming in via DVI that is copy-protected? Can it be processed with the HDCP/HDMI stuff in it? Or, must the copy protection be stripped out of the signal, the signal processed, and then the copy material reinserted? My uninformed technical view is that it might be difficult to process copy-protected material.

Another question: you mentioned that the unit would be friendly to Pioneer plasmas; but in earlier posts there was some suggestion (as is the case on the new Vigatec Dune) that the new KD scaler would not support 72 hz (or 48 hz) refresh because the hardware solution is essentially fixed at 60 hz, and doing a frame rate conversion causes more problems than it solves.

Can you clarify that for us? Thanks!

Cheers
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post #13 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Humey
Michael

Mayber I am dense, but are you saying that the this will basically be a two piece unit, a switcher and a scaler. so If you want to buy the scaler, do you need the switcher and if not, in what situation would you not need the switcher. For example, I have the Leeza, if I wanted to upgrade, would I just need the scaler portion or would I need both scaler and switcher

thanks
Humey

Sorry for the confusion!

We are introducing 2 new separate products. 1 is a scaler. the scaler will have these inputs:
2 s-video
2 composite
2 component
1 rgbhv
1 dvi/htcp
1 sdi

2nd product that we are introducing is a matrix (component) switcher 8inputs to 3 outputs , it has nothing to do with a scaler.

In your case if you have a DIGITAL LEEZA, you dont need the switcher product and might want to consider the scaler product, especially that we will offer 1 time option to all our existing DIGITAL LEEZA customers to purchase the new scaler at marginal price.

next month i will post a link that will ask all existing DIGITAL LEEZA users to email me their names, address, proof of purchase, etc... and we will get a list going for all customers who want to take the upgrade unit.
Thank you

michael@keydigital.com
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post #14 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 12:52 PM
 
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If I may request an option for the new scaler, I would appreciate if you would add a 12v control for projector screens. I know that alot of projectors have this already included, but not all of them do. I would assume that it would be an easy and cheap add on and yet help us with our systems

Also, will there be any test patterns on the new scaler. I would pay big bucks (ok, not really) to have some sort of test pattern that would help for adjusting pixel clock. For example, Mark Rejhon's pixel perfect test paterrn comes to mind
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post #15 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Joel
Legally (*he said stepping gingerly into this*), to strip out the HDCP codes and send the info via DVI "in the clear" would likely be viewed by the content providers as a copyright violation. On OTA HD broadcasts, or anything coming in via DVI that is not copy-protected, what MBurnstein suggests will be fine.


Another question: you mentioned that the unit would be friendly to Pioneer plasmas; but in earlier posts there was some suggestion (as is the case on the new Vigatec Dune) that the new KD scaler would not support 72 hz (or 48 hz) refresh because the hardware solution is essentially fixed at 60 hz, and doing a frame rate conversion causes more problems than it solves.

Can you clarify that for us? Thanks!

Cheers
Hi Joel,

All our existing units work excellent with all plasma's that support DVI in as well as Pioneer Plasma, in Native Rate in DVI. I think you are confusing us with another manufacturer. The new scaler will have 48, 50, 60, 72 and 75hz.

Just on this forum alone you can get testimonials from users who bought Digital Leeza and Pioneer Plasma and see what they say.
Thank you

michael@keydigital.com
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post #16 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 01:37 PM
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Michael, I'm fully aware of the situation re the LEEZA, believe me. I do, however, remember some very preliminary discussions about the new product and there was some discussion that 72 hz would be a problem. It's possible I am remembering Vigatec Dune discussions. But if there's no issue then, FABULOUS! :D

Have you seen ClearMatrix Pro? Any sense of how it performs on video when compared to DCDi?

My point about what comes in HDCP/HDMI encrypted, however, is slightly different. You might want to ask Mike T about it.

Cheers
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post #17 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 01:38 PM
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Michael:

I have seen nothing but good comments about Pioneers with the Leeza (ericbee, jlm, asinshesq, to name a few).
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post #18 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 01:39 PM
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Humey,

What's the 12V control supposed to do, exactly?

Michael,

I think what Humey is referring to is a few very simple patterns:
1. Alternate dot (dots alternate in on and off and shift one line).
2. Horizontal alternate line
3. Vertical alternate line.

Basically, these are used to adjust overscan, dot clock, etc. on the projector/plasma so that they are native rate.

Does the DVI blaster only affect Pioneer? I don't quite recall, but I think NEC and Fujitsu also had problems reaching native rate through DVI as well. Do you have any experience with DVI blaster on those units?

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
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post #19 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Humey
If I may request an option for the new scaler, I would appreciate if you would add a 12v control for projector screens. I know that alot of projectors have this already included, but not all of them do. I would assume that it would be an easy and cheap add on and yet help us with our systems

Also, will there be any test patterns on the new scaler. I would pay big bucks (ok, not really) to have some sort of test pattern that would help for adjusting pixel clock. For example, Mark Rejhon's pixel perfect test paterrn comes to mind
Humey

Great ideas! I dont know the answer to both questions, please email mike@keydigital.com with your suggestions. I think eventually we can add anything we want to the scaler since it will be firmware upgrdable with no limitations. Our main goal is to introduce a solid product at CEDIA in September. Keep in mind you can buy AVAI disc and with SDI inputs on scaler do all the test patterns. For us it becomes an issue of time and money as of today, will we sell more units with HD scaling or with test patterns? We decided HD scaling is most important to our dealers so we will implement it first and everything else will be done via firmware upgrade, when the need arises. By the way all firmware upgrades are free.

Its very hard to manufacture a perfect product, but you can rest assure we have the expertise Mike Tsinberg has 39 HDTV Pattents the most in USA today. 9 Years as VP of R&D at Toshiba and 9 years in R&D at Phillips. Mike Tsinberg in 2000 was invited by the White House to represent USA in Russian Engineering Summit. Was invited by the Columbia University in 1997 to lecture 500 engineering professors on HDTV. Check it out! The reason no one hears about these things from Mike as he is very quite about it and i intend to keep KD moving forward based on his REPUTATION and KNOWLEDGE and let everyone know what kind of people are behind the company. So, i am very confident we will have a great product for the right price, we will take good care of our existing customers, our dealers, and all new customers.

Have a good weekend!
Thank you

michael@keydigital.com
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post #20 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 01:46 PM
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Oferlaor:

The 12V thing is used to control the raising and lowering of screens from the ceiling. The NRS has one and I think the CS-1 does as well.
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post #21 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Joel
Michael, I'm fully aware of the situation re the LEEZA, believe me. I do, however, remember some very preliminary discussions about the new product and there was some discussion that 72 hz would be a problem. It's possible I am remembering Vigatec Dune discussions. But if there's no issue then, FABULOUS! :D

Have you seen ClearMatrix Pro? Any sense of how it performs on video when compared to DCDi?

My point about what comes in HDCP/HDMI encrypted, however, is slightly different. You might want to ask Mike T about it.

Cheers
There are no problems with Pioneer Plasma and our existing scalers, i can assure you.

Clear Matrix Pro vs DCDi: Thats a million dollar question. I cant answer this question, because I am in sales if do i am doomed and if i dont i doomed as well. This question is for MIke T his email:mike@keydigital.com he can answer it and back it up with technical analysis.

HDCP issue: I agree with you. The unit will scale DVI though not passthrough.
Thank you


On HDCP point:

michael@keydigital.com
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post #22 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 02:03 PM
 
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Jim is correct in regards to the 12v. My projector is controlled by preamp which is a pain since the preamp is used for both FP and my tv and programming the preamp so that the screen comes down for one thing and not another is cumbersome. Having the control through the scaler, would be perfect as the scaler would only be used with the FP

Michael

On the issue of the test pattern, the one pattern I am talking about is not availabe anywhere (as far as I know) except either from a HTPC (Mark Rehjon test pattern) or from the Rock (again from Mark) or from Dilard

Including this on the scaler would make us scaler plus Dila owners very happy

I have mentioned this test pattern to Mike many times but I think the extra push from you would help things move along
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post #23 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by oferlaor
Humey,

What's the 12V control supposed to do, exactly?

Michael,

I think what Humey is referring to is a few very simple patterns:
1. Alternate dot (dots alternate in on and off and shift one line).
2. Horizontal alternate line
3. Vertical alternate line.

Basically, these are used to adjust overscan, dot clock, etc. on the projector/plasma so that they are native rate.

Does the DVI blaster only affect Pioneer? I don't quite recall, but I think NEC and Fujitsu also had problems reaching native rate through DVI as well. Do you have any experience with DVI blaster on those units?
Hi Ofer,

Please email Mike at mike@keydigital.com about the test patterns as a suggestion.

With DVI blaster in the scaler works with every Plasma, FUJITSU, NEC, Pioneer in Native Rate in DVI, etc... The problem was resolved 2 months ago and we had a FREE DVI blaster upgrade going.
Thank you

michael@keydigital.com
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post #24 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Humey
Jim is correct in regards to the 12v. My projector is controlled by preamp which is a pain since the preamp is used for both FP and my tv and programming the preamp so that the screen comes down for one thing and not another is cumbersome. Having the control through the scaler, would be perfect as the scaler would only be used with the FP

Michael

On the issue of the test pattern, the one pattern I am talking about is not availabe anywhere (as far as I know) except either from a HTPC (Mark Rehjon test pattern) or from the Rock (again from Mark) or from Dilard

Including this on the scaler would make us scaler plus Dila owners very happy

I have mentioned this test pattern to Mike many times but I think the extra push from you would help things move along
Humey

Okay, i will speak to Mike tonight about test patterns. I wish someone told me earlier, as it might be a little late but i will push Mike into THINKING about it. PLease email me michael@keydigital.com exactly what you want done and i will do my best.
Thank you

michael@keydigital.com
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post #25 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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i think Mark R once posted that the background for the *** and Leeza menu pages works the same as his pixel-perfect pattern, so it was there all along!

john
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post #26 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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i see that the dirty word filter has a new entry! ;)

john
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post #27 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 03:07 PM
 
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jlm

I know about the checkerboard that the Leeza has, in my opinion its way to small to use. At least, I couldnt work with it. I had someone else who has a dila (like me) and uses Marks pattern through his htpc come to my house and play with my system. He really couldnt work with it either. Way to small of a pattern.

I do appreciate the suggestion though

Whats with not being able to use the name WAT
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post #28 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 03:13 PM
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michael, thanks so much for answering all these questions!!! :D
This really does sound like a fantastic scaler!!
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post #29 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 03:34 PM
 
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One thing you can say about Key Digital, okay two things

One, they have great customer services and two they are happy to listen to you.
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post #30 of 271 Old 06-28-2002, 04:56 PM
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Amen, thanks Michael -- I appreciate your answers. I'm not quite sure I understood your HDCP comment above, but I do appreciate it! :) I was aware that the LEEZA has been a perfect fit for the Pioneer, thanks.

Have a good weekend!

Cheers
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