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post #91 of 390 Old 08-01-2002, 11:03 AM
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But we still need an answer on the 72 hz (or even 48 hz) compatibility issues..... I thought it was an issue with the Faroudja deinterlacing hardware, not the enhancer.

If it's still there, then would folks who need those output refresh rates still need to use DScaler?

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post #92 of 390 Old 08-01-2002, 11:23 AM
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Hey Joel,

You know, I really do think that the 24Hz/48Hz/72Hz issue can be solved rather easily in software. To me, this seems like a perfect application for DScaler connected to the 480p output of the card.

Basically, you can use DScaler to do 3:2 cadence detection of the incoming 480p stream, so that you can extract the original 24Hz frameset and generate 48/72Hz as you want. Basically it would require computations similar to, but not exactly like, the 3:2 detection for 480i sources.

Vigatec's Dune/F can't do it because they probably don't have the processing power on-hand, but an HTPC will!

Michael
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post #93 of 390 Old 08-01-2002, 11:30 AM
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Michael is almost on the money. Dscaler will work day one as they already have JudderTerminator.

But given the presence of an FPGA and our own software, its really a matter of time before we consider adding such a feature. The software gives us lots of flexibility to do things that haven't been done with this chip. I'll leave it at that for now.

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post #94 of 390 Old 08-01-2002, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Yep, Michael is correct. In fact, it is easier to find matched frames than fields that makeup a fame. The problem will come in during bad edits when you no longer have matched frames.

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I mentioned the Digital camera was that I don’t know of any DScaler algorithms and/or cards that can handle native progressive signals just yet?
VMR can do screen captures.

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Stacey, what are your thoughts on the upcoming DxVA/DX9 compliant cards/drivers/SW as far as future display quality improvements in conjunction with a Holo3Dgraph carded HTPC solution?
I can't discuss MS products/technologies that have not shipped yet.
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post #95 of 390 Old 08-01-2002, 07:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by KenLand


Seriously, I and my family can't be trusted to properly handle discs, put )

Ken

Discs get all scratched up in a changer. You periodically have to replace them. They skip, freeze and all.. At least you can clean dirty fingers marks. Changers make sense for audio, speacially pop music, hopping from track to track, disc to disc, but little sense for linear viewing video.
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post #96 of 390 Old 08-01-2002, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I am curious, what OS do you plan to use with this card?

I will use XP.
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post #97 of 390 Old 08-01-2002, 08:16 PM
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So will this card allow me to create a headless HTPC to do nothing but scaling and deinterlacing.

I've got a $3000 RPTV; I'd like to scale everything to 1080i, but I'm not about to spend more on a processor than I did on the set, and I don't want to go whole hog HTPC right now. But I can handle a headless little 1U PC with 480i/p in and 1080i out for a reasonable price.

So if this card is reasonable $, coupled with an inexpensive video card (low-end GF4, for instance), is this going to be answer for me?

Oh, and if this thing is supposed to use a DVI output, and my TV doesn't have a DVI input, what to do? Would I have run the VGA through a transcoder to component?

edit: Nevermind about this question. I got unlazy and did a search: (Here's a newbie question you don't have to answer if you think I'm just lazy: What's SDI and how do you get a modded DVD player?)
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post #98 of 390 Old 08-01-2002, 09:11 PM - Thread Starter
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I've got a $3000 RPTV; I'd like to scale everything to 1080i
I recommend against scaling to 1080i, you loose the benefit of progressive scan. You best bet is to go to 540p, which will use that same 1080i memory. With 1080i, you get interlaced artifacts like moire and twitter that go away with progressive scan.
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post #99 of 390 Old 08-01-2002, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by sspears


I recommend against scaling to 1080i, you loose the benefit of progressive scan. You best bet is to go to 540p, which will use that same 1080i memory. With 1080i, you get interlaced artifacts like moire and twitter that go away with progressive scan.
yeah, either way, but the main goal is bypassing the set's internal scaler -- and making 480i look good. I imagine I'd be able to sit down and do some A/B viewing between 540p and 1080i and see which I like better. The small amount of 1080i programming I've managed to watch just has me drooling.
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post #100 of 390 Old 08-01-2002, 09:50 PM
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In order to upsample 480i to 1080i you're actually doing a full deinterlace. There's no way to change resolutions without going to progressive scan in the middle. So 480i -> 1080i looks like

480i -> 480p -> 1080p -> 1080i,

(although in reality, you never really compute all 1080 lines of the 1080p stage; just the 540 you need for each interlaced field.) By comparison, going to 540p is

480i -> 480p -> 540p.

So in a sense, you don't really lose the "benefit" of progressive scan, because you needed it to get to 1080i in the first place. I would encourage you at least to check out both and see what you prefer. If you're using an HTPC to do the scaling, you'll probably prefer 540p because that will allow you to see the Windows desktop without it flickering like crazy. But if you're just scaling movies, who knows, 1080i might look better.

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post #101 of 390 Old 08-01-2002, 11:03 PM - Thread Starter
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To see why 540p looks better than 1080i, I can name a couple of examples. At 1080i, complex detail breaks into moire.

I have run my DVP3000 at 1080i while playing with video content. (to see if it would be any better since video is difficult to deinterlace.)

However, you should try both and as long as your video card supports it, you can choose which works best. That is the beauty of this this combo.
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post #102 of 390 Old 08-02-2002, 01:37 AM
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Any news as to whether this card is entirely in the 10-bit domain? Stacey, as usual, I trust you will set me right as to whether this is an essential parameter or not.

Cheers,

Brett
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post #103 of 390 Old 08-02-2002, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brett
Any news as to whether this card is entirely in the 10-bit domain? Stacey, as usual, I trust you will set me right as to whether this is an essential parameter or not.

Cheers,
So the SDI input can accept both 10-bit and/or 8-bit SDI. The Philips is a 9-bit decoder. We interpolate the bt.656 stream up to 10-bit before the Fli2200 is fed and then the 10-bit output of the Fli2200 must be reduced to 8-bit again. Unfortunately, this is a limitation of the video cards today. I think the Radeon 9700 may be the first to actually accept a 10-bit steam. We think we can get the 10-bits in there if it does.

Some of you may recall I recently had some comments on the Matrox Parhelia - this is the reason I was looking at it. I thought it could take in a 10-bit stream, but it cannot afterall. Try as I might to work with or influence the graphics card companies, I cannot change their evil ways alone. They simply don't care about small companies, and IMO, pay lip service to us HTPC folks on the forum.

Short answer - the card itself is as 10-bit as it can be. Whether or not we'll ever be able to get 10-bits into a graphics card is another matter. However, I think most will agree the 10-bits is most important where the scaling occurs since that is the most likely place you would get quantization errors. We also bumped things up to be 10-bit before the Fli2200 to make sure it had adequate headroom for its processing too.

Hope that helps! :)

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post #104 of 390 Old 08-02-2002, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by sspears
...cut...I have the Dune with F chip at the moment...cut...
sspears, as you are testing the Vigatec product at the moment, what else can you say about the DUNE-F?
Is it worth the money?
Thanks
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post #105 of 390 Old 08-02-2002, 08:18 AM
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Stacey,

I think you're the only one who can do a full all-out shootout of the current crop of scalers. It would be VERY interesting to compare Dune-F, Holo3DGraph, CS-1 and HD-LEEZA.

Any chance you could do that?

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post #106 of 390 Old 08-02-2002, 08:26 AM
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Will there be synchronization issues between the HOLO3DGRAPH and the graphics card? In other words, will there be any dropped and/or repeated frames (a.k.a. micro-stutters) because the timing of the incoming video signal is slightly different from the timing of the output signal?
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post #107 of 390 Old 08-02-2002, 08:54 AM
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Two part answer - with DScaler this is mitigated via JudderTerminator.

With the Fli2200 I currently run the card at 59.94 and it passes the WHQL X Parade test (basically a stock ticker sort of test) just fine. Moreover, as indicated above - we can and probably will implement a sort of refresh lock mechanism to allow for 48/72/75 etc. There are some neat ways of doing this with our card due to the flexibility of the hardware/software combination.

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post #108 of 390 Old 08-02-2002, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by coppit
Can someone explain the hype to a newbie?
- This card is a video capture card, so I can use my Radeon 8500 without having to upgrade to an All-In-Wonder
- Deinterlacing is hard to do, and software DVD players don't do a great job. This card implements the DCDi algorithm in hardware, which is better.
- This card does all the processing in the digital domain, and outputs digital video.
- MPEG decoding is hard. This card may have on-board decoding, which will reduce the load on the processor. (But won't help with DiVX and other encodings.)

Questions:
- Is there some other benefit I'm missing?
- How big a difference does the all-digital processing make?
- So does this mean that an All-In-Wonder inherently does an A-D and D-A transformation?
- Will software deinterlacers ever catch up, thereby making the hardware implementation unnecessary?
- Given +1GHz CPU speeds, why not just do all the scaling and deinterlacing in software?
- What hardware and/or software does this card replace? (external hardware scaler, software scaler, TV capture card, MPEG decoding card, more?)
- Newer DLP projectors have on-board DCDi. Why do I need this card if I'm already paying for DCDi? Or asked another way, does this mean I can look for a cheaper projector without on-board DCDi?
coppit
Alright, the benefit that you're missing is the quality of the a/d conversion of the new philips chip and flexibility of multiple inputs such as component, SDI, a daughtercard for potentially more inputs and last but not least, flexibility of choosing the deinterlacing algorithm you want. Of course you'll only get full digital domain by using SDI or if they implement a hardware based mpg2 decoder. This is different beast from the current crop of capture cards that dScaler is compatible with, the AIW's are not compatible with Dscaler.

Although the card could probably have no problems "capturing video" as in using a codec like Huffyuv to store video on your hard drive to convert to another format, but I think that's not the main intent of the card... The card is for real-time deinterlacing and scaling for 480i/480p sources. Besides the card does not have a TV tuner like the AIW cards.

Will software catch up to DCDi... eventually..maybe, but I believe DCDi has been a proven chip for deinterlacing video sources. Dscaler does a good job, but I think the DCDi will do an even better job on video. Sure you could do this in software, which this card still allows you to do. All HTPC'ers have wanted some kind of Faroudja processing on a PCI card for a loong time. We have Dscaler and we love it, but there was always the "Faroudja is best on video" threads that said, HTPC's are "almost there".

Some newer PJ's have DCDi built in. This is great for people who want an all-in-one solution who has only a few input sources and don't have the need for a lot of custom aspect ratios.
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post #109 of 390 Old 08-02-2002, 10:30 PM
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Ok, slightly confused here - once installed in a PC, does this card make TheatreTek (and other similar software) redundant? I ask because I've just purchased TheatreTek (yesterday!) but intend buying this card.
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post #110 of 390 Old 08-02-2002, 10:39 PM
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Paul,

In short, yes. The card's attendant software provides it's own method of display or allows the use of Dscaler for display. There are others here who can clarify this more.

TheaterTek, et al are designed to play DVD from a source within the machine -i.e. the DVD drive. Holo3DGraph deals with a signal that originates external from the PC.

Jeez, it's so clear till I open my mouth !

FWIW - I am an addic. er ah HT enthusiast and own TheaterTek and many other methods / devices to play with or Ah critique.

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post #111 of 390 Old 08-02-2002, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jamin
Jeez, it's so clear till I open my mouth !
LOL :)


Ok, I'm still confused as your reply sort of contradicts itself. The card is designed primarily for external sources - ok that I understand. But, can the card also scale and display an internal DVD without the need for a software player like Theatretek? You say yes but then qualified the yes with mention of external sources so I'm still not sure if it can or can't.

Sorry if I'm being a pain Jamin.
Thanks,
Paul
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post #112 of 390 Old 08-02-2002, 11:05 PM
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It depends on whether or not Tom includes an MPG 2 decoder that will decode the stream from an internal dVD player. As it stands now, without the MPG2 decoder, you'll have to provide an external DVD source (SDI, component input or svideo) for deinterlacing/scaling.
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post #113 of 390 Old 08-02-2002, 11:05 PM
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Paul,

I get it now. My short answer "yes" was meant to agree with the redundancy thing you mentioned.

The Holo3DGraph can not, "as I understand it" utilize information coming from your PC's internal DVD drive. So, no it won't be involved in playing a movie from your PC's DVD drive.

Having said that - there is talk about the external MPEG decoder card for the Holo3DGraph card which will allow you to .....

I confess, I too get fuzzy right here. The trick, as I understand it (this is a plea to be set straight !) is grabbing the DVD stream, which is MPEG encoded, and decode it. Then you feed it to the Holo3DGraph card so that you can let it do its job.

The place I get fuzziest is how all this "plumbing" works. Righ now, the Holo3DGraph (<---tough word to type a lot) input only comes from the external connectors. The "plumbing" allows it to deinterlace, via the faroudja (or not) and feed the resultant to either Dscaler or its own software for subsequent display.

Did I make it worse ?

Anybody want to de fuzzy fie me please do (hint hint)

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post #114 of 390 Old 08-02-2002, 11:18 PM
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I think if you have an internal DVD player, you'll still need DVD player software - as Tom specifically targets this to input external sources.

The whole point (or actually one of the points) is to try and turn the HTPC into a dumber device, so you don't "need" to use an internal DVD player.

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post #115 of 390 Old 08-02-2002, 11:24 PM
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Jamin,
Yes, I see what you are saying;

The card can playback an internal dvd source but only in conjunction with a yet to be released mpeg decoder, so, software is still necessary at this time for internal dvd play.

This makes sense as its prime function is external sources - I'd confused myself by thinking that it would also (in its current form) handle internal sources which I now understand it can't yet do.

I'm happy now! Thanks Jamin, glad one of us knew what we were talking about!
Paul

PS - hows about H3D from now on rather than Holo3dgraph (you're right, it is hard to type let alone say it!)
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post #116 of 390 Old 08-02-2002, 11:26 PM
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Hi Ofer
Got it now, it was just me being thick (again)!
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post #117 of 390 Old 08-02-2002, 11:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
hows about H3D from now on
I like that.
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post #118 of 390 Old 08-02-2002, 11:36 PM
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Paul,

I'm with you - If what i said you understood and what you understood is right -- we got it ! H3D it is !


oferlaor,

I agree, one of the many points is, as you say, an opprtunity to dumb it down a bit. But there are great uses for the flexibility here as you well know. Shoving an MPEG decode card in allows a "scaler" with built in DVD drive - sort of . I can see a bunch of ways to go - especially since the compute burden is not particulalry high.

Hmm, wonder which is cheaper for the all digital processing path - ext DVD drive with SDI mod, or internal DVD with additional MPEG decode card? Will wait and see.

Hey, I like your thread on the H3D vs Ro*k - I just can't add anything there though. Do you still have a Vigatec unit?

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post #119 of 390 Old 08-02-2002, 11:41 PM
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sspears,

Do you know how the "plumbing works" with respect to getting an internal DVD drive MPEG stream to a different card for decode and subsequently in the H3D for processing?

Is it all on the PCI bus - until a jump (sdi) over to the H3D?

I'm not trying to pin anybody down here - more of a general sort of question.

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post #120 of 390 Old 08-02-2002, 11:50 PM
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it would seem wastful to put "everything but the kitchen sink" in the card. An MPEG decoder will have loads of potential problems and increase the cost of the card unecessarily.

In particular, the slowest CPU out there can do a good MPEG2 decode these days without any problems. So, why add MPEG in the mix too?

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