Has anyone seen the Lumagen Vision or Vision Pro? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 230 Old 03-05-2003, 02:36 PM
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Patrick,

You might try

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/q_and_a_submission.html

setting the topic to "Video," noting that your request is for Stacey.

I didn't have much luck finding contact info on the Secrets site, either.
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post #92 of 230 Old 03-05-2003, 04:18 PM
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Thanks Steve, I've done that but haven't heard back from them yet. It looks like we'll be reviewed in a magazine soon at least.

-Patrick

Patrick Harkin, Lumagen Inc. engineer
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post #93 of 230 Old 03-07-2003, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I guess I can answer my own thread!

I just received my VisionPro. My initial impressions are good. The external build quality is quite good. The machined aluminum, black anodized face plate is very nice, and very simple. Lumagen was nice enough to ask for my system set-up, and pre-configure the VisionPro for my PJ. Without getting into too much detail yet, I can say the the unit displayed an image on my PJ as soon as I connected it. This was very nice, I was expecting to have to attach a computer monitor first to get the unit ready for the PJ. One thing that confused me at first ( even though I read it in the manual weeks ago) was the display on the unit. The back-lighting shuts itself off a few seconds after the last command. This is a nice feature to reduce light pollution in the theater, however, there is no other power indicator. Since I did not have my PJ on yet, I thought the unit shut off for some reason. I don't think that this will be an issue once I get used to it. I am also not a big fan of external power supplies. I did, however, know that the unit had one of these before I purchased it.

The image looks good so far, but I have not done any calibration yet, so I won't post any impressions until I do.

Off to a weekend of tweaking.

Ken
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post #94 of 230 Old 03-10-2003, 10:45 AM
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For interested parties in the UK - Gordon at Convergent-AV is now the UK distributor for Lumagen.Congratulations to both him and Lumagen for responding so quickly to a demand from potential buyers overseas.

I have ordered a vison from him and he is coming to install/calibrate when it arrives - so I will post further comments then.

Paul
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post #95 of 230 Old 03-10-2003, 12:59 PM
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Are there any distributors in Germany? Let me know so I can hurry up and buy.
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post #96 of 230 Old 03-13-2003, 08:46 AM
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Are there any lip sync issues resulting from the 67 mS latency introduced by the 4-field video processing in the scaler (video chain lags the audio chain)?

- Tim

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post #97 of 230 Old 03-13-2003, 10:34 AM
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VideoGrabber,

Assuming that Lumagen doesn't do anything differently from the IScan Pro in this respect (they are using approx the same deinterlacing chip), I haven't experienced any noticable problems with lip sync using my IScan Pro.

Of course, that's my opinion - you may be more sensitive than I...

-Jon

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"First things first, but not necessarily in that order." - Dr. Who
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post #98 of 230 Old 03-13-2003, 11:46 AM
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Thanks, Jon. It's been a while since I tested it, but I think my threshold of sensitivity is around 100 mS. The reason I ask is that another option I'm considering is an internal H3D, which should have similar 4-field processing, yet appears to suffer from lip sync issues... according to posts here in the forum.

The other question I had involved vertical chroma filtering, and how well it deals with sources having CUE and ICP issues.

- Tim

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post #99 of 230 Old 03-13-2003, 02:03 PM
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I read this thread in great interest for the Vision; but, I do have a question.
In reading the Vision manual, the component input accepts only interlace signal & not progressive? Correct?

Regards,

Ron C
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post #100 of 230 Old 03-13-2003, 02:06 PM
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VideoGrabber,

I've unscientifically found about the same threshold for me (100ms).

My personal opinion of devices with chroma related problems is this: don't watch 'em :D Garbage in, garbage out. I know that doesn't help...

-Jon

-Y
"First things first, but not necessarily in that order." - Dr. Who
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post #101 of 230 Old 03-13-2003, 03:30 PM
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Ron:

The component input goes to the de-interlacing chip and therefore takes interlaced component video only.

There is also a pass through input that takes 480p or HDTV formats either as RGB or component video and outputs it without scaling or other modification, except that the horizontal and vertical sync. can be inverted if needed to suit the monitor or projector.

Thus there is no scaling available to video that is already progressive scan.

Allan

Remember when lines and logos burned the TV screen? I was at a concert where a musical selection made extremely heavy use of about four of the keys of the piano.
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post #102 of 230 Old 03-13-2003, 03:47 PM
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Ron C- That's right we accept only interlaced input signals.

Tim- With regard to CUE & ICP, our boxes do perform vertical signal processing which mitigates the chroma problems substantially. Looking at some of the noteable scenes:
-Red button in 5th Element CUE is not noticeable.
-Red lines on car hood of Monsters Inc. aren't visible
-Moulin Rouge jacket scene, chroma errs are improved but slightly visible

-Patrick

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post #103 of 230 Old 03-13-2003, 05:32 PM
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yubyub wrote:
> My personal opinion of devices with chroma related problems is this: don't watch 'em <

Well, I've already got one (a Sony 875p 301-disc megaChanger), so it's an issue for me. And I may be adding a couple more changers.

And although it may be possible to avoid CUE, ICP is an issue that any deinterlacer has to deal with, from any interlaced source. It's the nature of the beast, and some deal with it better than others.

Patrick, thanks very much for the quick and knowledgable response. Your participation here is a real asset.

- Tim

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post #104 of 230 Old 03-13-2003, 07:25 PM
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Tim:

What does ICP stand for?

Also, wouldn't vertical chroma filtering adversely affect source material that does not have the Chroma Upsampling Error, such as laser disk programs and broadcasts?

Allan

I had an IScan v1, and I could see the lip sync. error. With the de-interlacer's four field lookahead, there is no way around it other than delaying the audio to match. If you add a 3d comb filter to the video signal path, such as from a high end laser disk player, you increase the lip sync. error.

Remember when lines and logos burned the TV screen? I was at a concert where a musical selection made extremely heavy use of about four of the keys of the piano.
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post #105 of 230 Old 03-13-2003, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
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VideoGrabber,

I am using the VisionPro. I've only had a weekend to play with it, but so far I like it. I will post my impressions when I have had more time with it. However, I wanted to let you know that the 67ms video delay is very noticeable. In fact, my denon avr-3802 receiver did not have an audio delay feature, so I upgraded to the 3803 which does. Just set it up tonight and the improvement is drastic.

Ken
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post #106 of 230 Old 03-13-2003, 07:50 PM
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I guess my ears aren't that fine tuned, as the 67ms doesn't bother me :D

That's why the saying goes "demo it!"

-Jon

-Y
"First things first, but not necessarily in that order." - Dr. Who
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post #107 of 230 Old 03-13-2003, 11:55 PM
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Allan asked:
> What does ICP stand for? <

Interlaced Chroma Problem, as examined and reported by Don Munsil and Stacy Spears. It's not a bug, but a problem common to all DVD players and MPEG decoders, that exists whenever the chroma fields from an interlaced static image are upscaled. It can look like CUE, but isn't, and can appear streaky, or as a mottling or plaid effect in static solid color areas.

Vertical low-pass filtering applied after deinterlacing can completely correct the ICP issue (e.g. 3-tap vertical blur with coefficients of 0.25, 0.50, 0.25). This can be done without loss, because there are only 240 lines of chroma actually on the disc. The problem arises when that is separated into two 120 line fields, upsampled, and interleaved into a 480 line frame. This results in false-color artifacts (chroma aliasing).

Check out the Special Report on the www.hometheaterhifi.com site for lots more details, and a beautifully written analysis and explanation by Don and Stacy. It's a gem.

The approach that's used in the Sage chip is a side-effect of a cost saving technique, due to their throwing away one field of chroma entirely. It hides the chroma problems somewhat effectively, but can introduce a flickering effect on sharp edges, especially animation. They also use a vertical low-pass filter, intended to remove chroma artifacts common in composite video sources, which is very effective. So it could definitely be improved upon, since it unnecessarily reduces the vertical chroma resolution from 240 to 120 lines.

> Also, wouldn't vertical chroma filtering adversely affect source material that does not have the Chroma Upsampling Error, such as laser disk programs and broadcasts? <

No, not if it's only decimated once, rather than twice, as the Faroudja chip does. These are composite video sources, and the filtering we're discussing can be very effective in minimizing artifacts normally present in those domains, and is frequently applied anyway as a chroma-noise reduction technique.

Re: the lip-sync error, Allan explained:
> With the de-interlacer's four field lookahead, there is no way around it other than delaying the audio to match. If you add a 3d comb filter to the video signal path, such as from a high end laser disk player, you increase the lip sync. error. <

Thanks, Allan. This is very good information to have and consider. I always assumed that any of the video processing operations that were applied in the temporal domain (which is most effective) would have a (cumulative) impact, regardless of how they were implemented. Yet we hear some folks commenting on certain approaches as being objectionable, and others seem not to be aware of any anomalies.

Papaek wrote:
> I wanted to let you know that the 67ms video delay is very noticeable. <

Thanks, Ken. So the problem is there, and how apparent it is will be dependent on each user's sensitivity, as well as the presence or absence of other A/V processing elements in the signal chain.

Patrick,
I appreciate that you picked out some of the most egregious examples, and gave an unvarnished appraisal of the unit's capabilities.

- Tim

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post #108 of 230 Old 03-14-2003, 09:52 AM
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Allan & Patrick,

Thanks for the clarification! I got a little confused on page ten of the manual it states "accept standard SDTV interlaced video." I forgotten that SDTV includes interlaced and is not only progressive.

Regards,

Ron C
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post #109 of 230 Old 03-14-2003, 01:48 PM
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Regarding the video delay through the Vision or VisionPro processors. It's 4.5 fields +/- 0.5 fields which is on par with most video processors that I know of. I can't say that I've ever noticed the delay, but, as others have mentioned, if its an effect you can see you might want to look into an audio reciever that has a delay line to compensate.
If you have an audio reciever with a delay line you could set it to 75 ms for NTSC or 90 ms for PAL to compensate.

-Patrick

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post #110 of 230 Old 03-14-2003, 08:56 PM
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Just took delivery of a Vision (the small one). Running it with an LD player and a computer monitor. The limited viewing I have done so far suggests everything is working OK.

I can try to take requests on things you folks would like to see.

Have an old secondhand DVD player, can't navigate the AVIA menus until I get a replacment remote. Previously using an HTPC setup for DVD's (which would not exercise the Vision).

Now for the strange part. My RPTV doesn't work with the Vision. It sync's OK with 480p and 600p except the colors are all messed up. Although I have never seen the Macrovision fading in person, I would describe it using the same words as people use to describe Macrovision manifestation, the picture goes bright and dark. I also see color intensity and tint changing, sometimes as extreme as all of the blue disappearing for awhile, then it comes back and all the green disappears. It is not a question of a loose connection losing all the blue, etc. The reason is not the wrong choice of RGB or Y/Pb/Pr.

Another example of anomaly:

Y/C delay test. Top half of screen should be yellow, bottom white, two red upright bars. Got top dark green, bottom medium blue, stripes still red.

Remember when lines and logos burned the TV screen? I was at a concert where a musical selection made extremely heavy use of about four of the keys of the piano.
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post #111 of 230 Old 03-14-2003, 10:29 PM
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Allan:
Please email jim@lumagen.com with details of your setup, and let's get this figured out.

In the meantime:
We have seen a couple of RPTVs that are overly sensitive to timing and act similar to what you describe with strange colors. At 480p we use SMPTE timing, but some sets seem to not like this standard timing. Try setting "VRES" something slightly higher than 480p, say 482p or 490p, and see if that helps. Also, it shouldn't make a difference, but you might try setting the vertical rate to 59.94, rather than the (current) default of 60. You may also want to give your set more horizontal blanking time using our output size command.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen

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post #112 of 230 Old 03-14-2003, 11:26 PM
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I took delivery of the Vision Wednesday evening ...and...after a day and night of tweaking in combination with Ovation Software's disc..I really believe it's a very nice software/hardware package.

I'd D/Led the user's manual two weeks earlier and practically had it memorized before the unit's arrival, so I could fairly easily understand and navigate the various configurations, not the least of which are the multiple "save" and "copy to" commands..in conjunction with the MemA and MemB configurations.

Unlike the previous poster, I had a great image right off the bat running it's RGBHV output directly into my Philips' VGA input.. My existing configuration consists of an ISF grayscale calibrated Philips 9352 W/S in combination with an ISCAN Ultra, so I knew what to look forward to regarding the 480P de-interlacing. I was anticipating the benefits of having DVDs scaled to 1080i...It's worth it...a measurable improvement in smoothness.

Tremendous amount of tweaking flexibility re: black level, white level and its 7.5/0 IRE 'pedestal'.

I've spoken to both Jim and Patrick...both gentlemen very courteous, knowledgable and helpful. In fact, I called Jim Friday morning to discuss his unit and even got a free tweak in the process....he advised me to set my VRATE to 59.94 from the default of 60...which evidently will be a future software default.

In my opinion and experience so far...a great product.
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post #113 of 230 Old 03-15-2003, 05:26 AM
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Just remembered a tweak to the TV that someone else told me about, to fix a "macrovision-like" problem. Tried that and everything is working fine.

It had something to do with "clamping", I haven't figured out exaclty what it means. The symptoms suggested the "luminance" of each of the red, green, and blue losing reference level.

I thought the problem was with the TV becuase the Lumagen worked fine with an analog computer monitor.

Remember when lines and logos burned the TV screen? I was at a concert where a musical selection made extremely heavy use of about four of the keys of the piano.
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post #114 of 230 Old 03-15-2003, 12:43 PM
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philnort wrote:
> he advised me to set my VRATE to 59.94 from the default of 60. <

It's good to know that's possible. From the manual, I got the impression that that the scan rates were adjustable in 0.1 Hz increments. So you'd find yourself off a bit trying to match 1000/1001 SMPTE timings of 47.952, 59.940, and 71.928 Hz. [Oops, I see the manual says 0.01 increments, so 59.94 is no problem. But what about the other two?]

Does anyone know if it's possible to adjust the output drive voltage from the nominal 700 mV RGB output? Either internally or by menu adjustment? I.e., bump it up to ~900 mV for driving longer lines, and compensating for PJs that do better with above 700 mV source signals? Could eliminate the need for an Extron line booster, and an additional link in the video signal chain.

Patrick,

the manual describes how horizontal oversampling can make 720p look close to 1920x1080i, without the interlace artifacts. Could you fill us in on the oversampling? I assume it's variable, and dependent on factors relating to the total bandwidth of the unit. I.e., the same reason that the number of horizontal lines it can output varies by refresh rate and AR.

Also, I'd be interested to know a bit more about the detail enhancement that's available, which I get the impression is part of the Imagen's proprietary scaling algorithms. I.e., you're combining scaling and sharpening in one pass?, rather than a post-processing sharpening algorithm to tweak things up a bit after a cubic-spline (or whatever) upscaling softens them somewhat. Is it adjustable? [NB: I just found the Sharpening section in the manual, so it appears that it is. Though the range of the adjustment isn't indicated.]

Lastly (for now), how does the unit respond to Macrovision-impaired input signals?

- Tim

- Tim
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post #115 of 230 Old 03-15-2003, 06:49 PM
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Tim-
- Yes, its only adjustable to .01 hz accuracy for vertical refresh currently. I'll check into adding a special code to enable higher precision for the power-users out there.
-The output voltage can be adjusted up. If you go into service menu mode ("MENU",0,9,1,0) then navigate to the level items under the output menu you will find a White level which has adjustable settings for r,g,b. It can be adjusted up to almost 1000 mv as I recall.
-The output is oversampled to maximize horizontal resolution for a given mode at a given vertical refresh rate. The result is that at 720p,59.94 hz the horizontal resolution is scaled to 1860 pixels. At 1080i,59.94 hz you'll get 2800 pixels per scanline.
-There is a sharpness control on the menu which utilizes the TV decoders ability. It has 4 levels. Our propietary scaling engine which preserves detail as it scales up the image is not adjustable.
-Macrovision is removed from the video signal and it does not effect the video quality.

-Patrick

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post #116 of 230 Old 03-15-2003, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Patrick,

Wow, very cool info. Thanks.

Jim mentioned writing a manual for the service menu items. I hope he does this soon, it seems there are a lot of valuable items there.

Ken
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post #117 of 230 Old 03-16-2003, 10:38 AM
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Patrick,

Thanks for all the technical info. Very impressive. This unit is sounding better and better. Also refreshing is your willingness to consider enhancements to a product that's already extremely flexible. Kudos.

Since you're using the SiI504, have you thought about using the digital audio passthru capabilities of the chip to provide an audio delay to match the video delay? AFAIK, the 504 is unique in offering this capability, which goes unused by all the player manufacturers.

- Tim

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post #118 of 230 Old 03-16-2003, 11:12 AM
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Going back through the previous comments, YubYub asked:
> BTW - patrick - add an SDI input to these things, and I'll buy one right away. <

Please don't, at least not on the base Vision unit. Some of us will have to save up our pennies just to afford that model, and SDI isn't something that's readily available as an output on most devices.

A retrofit to the Pro model would be entirely appropriate, but please keep a lower-priced option available in your lineup.

- Tim

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post #119 of 230 Old 03-16-2003, 11:22 AM
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Video Graber that feature does not go unused by all the player manufacturers. Arcams FMJ27 and those owners of DV88's who have added the prog scan board upgrade can make use of this, very useful, feature.

Gordon

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post #120 of 230 Old 03-16-2003, 04:06 PM
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Thanks, Gordon! I wasn't aware of that.

It's too bad that more don't take advantage if it. Apparently, the video latency isn't considered to be significant enough to matter to most.

- Tim

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