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Video Processors > The Official HD Leeza review thread.
Mark_H's Avatar Mark_H 09:06 AM 05-11-2003
Does anybody else feel that the HD Leeza's output is too low?

Prior to installing the HD Leeza I measured a full 100 IRE white field from the Faroudja, using the Milori Eye and read 36.5 cd/m2.

I'm now attempting to do greyscale on the HDL and at 100 IRE can only achieve 13-14 cd/m2 (SDI) *if* I push contrast high on the projector (which I don't want to do). Via component I was able to get 20 cd/m2.

I just switched back to the Faroudja and boy is there a difference! The Faroudja's image is *SO* much brighter and more vibrant... :confused:

Mark

Charles R's Avatar Charles R 09:22 AM 05-11-2003
Phat Phreddy did all of the work and figured out how to get 1360x1024 via DVI (and RGBHV though it doesn't look as nice) to work in 1:1 on the G150 several months ago and it has worked great for me since.

Most of the settings are beyond me but somehow he tricks the projector into thinking it's in 1600x1200 (which is supported) while still displaying only 1360x1024. Again, it works great for me, a perfectly crisp desktop, no noise, full screen DVDs with a much better image versus not using 1:1.

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1360x1024=1360,285,192,323,1024,151,3,72,162000,336

Generic timing details for 1360x1024:
HFP=285 HSW=192 HBP=323 kHz=75 VFP=151 VSW=3 VBP=72 Hz=60
thebland's Avatar thebland 10:06 AM 05-11-2003
Thanks, Charles.

I hope that KD can incorporate such into a firmware upgrade for us G-150 users.

I will ask.
thirdkind's Avatar thirdkind 11:26 AM 05-11-2003
Has anyone tried it with "crappy" sources yet? Granted, the ability to deinterlace/scale 1080i is the primary selling point for the HD Leeza, but I have a sizeable LD collection I plan on scaling as well. I'll have my HDL tomorrow, but I'm curious if anyone has tried it on lo-res composite/S-video sources yet.

I'll post my opinions after I get it set up tomorrow night. I'll be using it with a JVC SX21 projector. I'm anxious to see how it does with HD because the internal scaling/deinterlacing of the SX21 leaves a lot to be desired when compared to the Sharp 10k I had previously. DVD via my HTPC looks stunning though. The SX21 is notorious for needing external scaling to look its best.
asinshesq's Avatar asinshesq 12:09 PM 05-11-2003
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark_H
Things to look for:

The computer generated feet during the reconstruction: lots of noise in there. But the biggest, and easiest problem to spot is when she jumps through the wall and runs down the corrugated tube... watch the right hand side of the tube as she runs down it - very nasty artefacting appears in a significant area....
I jsut checked how that scene looks through the old Digital Leeza and my 50" 503cmx -- didn't see any noise there.

More generally, any impressions on how the HDL stacks up against the digital Leeza on dvds and regular sd stuff?
Mark_H's Avatar Mark_H 12:46 PM 05-11-2003
Have just finished watching the first full film on the HD Leeza.

The SDI connection was lost 13 times during the film :(

On the plus side, the film was rendered very cleanly with only one major artefact problem. If anybody has Queen of the Damned (no comments, please :D ) - check the last few minutes where Lestat leaves the building - the horizontal blinds in the windows were rendered as dancing diagonal blinds!

As an experiment, I reconnected the Faroudja and watched the final chapter again and ... :eek: The Faroudja looked like a grainy VHS video in comparison to the HDL! However, it did render the blinds correctly ;)

There are a lot of teething problems with the unit, which we're feeding back to Key, but if they can resolve them, this is a killer unit.

Mark
napp's Avatar napp 01:28 PM 05-11-2003
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark_H
Have just finished watching the first full film on the HD Leeza.

The SDI connection was lost 13 times during the film :(

On the plus side, the film was rendered very cleanly with only one major artefact problem. If anybody has Queen of the Damned (no comments, please :D ) - check the last few minutes where Lestat leaves the building - the horizontal blinds in the windows were rendered as dancing diagonal blinds!

As an experiment, I reconnected the Faroudja and watched the final chapter again and ... :eek: The Faroudja looked like a grainy VHS video in comparison to the HDL! However, it did render the blinds correctly ;)

There are a lot of teething problems with the unit, which we're feeding back to Key, but if they can resolve them, this is a killer unit.

Mark
Mark,

what SDI-modified player are you using? Is the HDL supposed to work better with the KDS-modified Panasonic players?

Thanks, NAPP
Dave Harper's Avatar Dave Harper 03:11 PM 05-11-2003
Thanks Alan, it needed that:)!!!

Anyone in the Central PA area have one yet that I can check out on my own? I am anxious to see this thing in action.
Alan Gouger's Avatar Alan Gouger 03:25 PM 05-11-2003
The topic of this thread is self explanatory. Please keep it on topic please.
Any threads off topic will be deleted.

James please repost your questions/opinions but please keep the other company out of it.
As you can see I have deleted everyone else's comments as well.
Art Sonneborn's Avatar Art Sonneborn 03:30 PM 05-11-2003
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark_H
Have just finished watching the first full film on the HD Leeza.

The SDI connection was lost 13 times during the film :(

On the plus side, the film was rendered very cleanly with only one major artefact problem. If anybody has Queen of the Damned (no comments, please :D ) - check the last few minutes where Lestat leaves the building - the horizontal blinds in the windows were rendered as dancing diagonal blinds!

As an experiment, I reconnected the Faroudja and watched the final chapter again and ... :eek: The Faroudja looked like a grainy VHS video in comparison to the HDL! However, it did render the blinds correctly ;)

There are a lot of teething problems with the unit, which we're feeding back to Key, but if they can resolve them, this is a killer unit.

Mark
Mark,
I'm a CRT guy, at this point , and I'm still considering my options in an upgrade. You are one of the few in this thread who are using a CRT in your evaluation so what you have to say ( particularly when you are comparing to the 5000) is more applicable to my situation. Would you say that in DVD based stuff that the HDL compares favorably or even exceeds the 5000 at say a 960p scan frequency?

Art
Mark_H's Avatar Mark_H 03:36 PM 05-11-2003
Quote:
Originally posted by napp
Mark,

what SDI-modified player are you using? Is the HDL supposed to work better with the KDS-modified Panasonic players?

Thanks, NAPP
I use a Meridian 800 with Immersive Inc's SDI card.

Mark
thebland's Avatar thebland 03:48 PM 05-11-2003
Mark,

I feel like I too am noticing some loss of brightness from the LEEZA.

I have not tried to bypass it yet to try and quanitfy how much. I am still tweaking and getting to know the unit..

60 hz will not sync properly with my DILA. Unfortunately, the other refresh rates are causing some studdering.

Do you continue to see the lower output or is there a means to remedy - besides upping the contrast?

BTW - I have only tried the DVI output and SDI input.

Running at 1280 X 960. 75 hz and Panamorph.
Mark_H's Avatar Mark_H 03:50 PM 05-11-2003
Quote:
Originally posted by Art Sonneborn
Mark,
I'm a CRT guy, at this point , and I'm still considering my options in an upgrade. You are one of the few in this thread who are using a CRT in your evaluation so what you have to say ( particularly when you are comparing to the 5000) is more applicable to my situation. Would you say that in DVD based stuff that the HDL compares favorably or even exceeds the 5000 at say a 960p scan frequency?

Art
Hey Art,

The HDL, via SDI, exceeds the Faroudja 5000 in some areas: the image is sharper, the Y/C chroma delay is gone, the colour banding problem with the Faroudja is fixed. The image is also much cleaner, free of grain and noise. The HDL is much more flexible than the Faroudja. The HDL also outperformed the Faroudja on deinterlacing the Video Essentials montage.

Right now, there are problems with the HDL, which I have highlighted in previous posts, and which need addressing by Key. Once fixed I'll have no hesitation, based on what I've seen so far, of permanently replacing my Faroudja with the HDL.

Mark.
thirdkind's Avatar thirdkind 03:50 PM 05-11-2003
I'll have both the included RP62 as well as a modded RP82 I bought separately from JVB to test out with the HDL's SDI input. I'll post my comments tomorrow night after I've hooked everything up and have had the time to watch some stuff.

I don't have Queen of the Damned, but I do have The Fifth Element and The Matrix, so I'll look for the artifacts that others above are describing.
Mark_H's Avatar Mark_H 03:54 PM 05-11-2003
Quote:
Originally posted by thebland
Mark,

I feel like I too am noticing some loss of brightness from the LEEZA.

I have not tried to bypass it yet to try and quanitfy how much. I am still tweaking and getting to know the unit..

60 hz will not sync properly with my DILA. Unfortunately, the other refresh rates are causing some studdering.

Do you continue to see the lower output or is there a means to remedy - besides upping the contrast?

BTW - I have only tried the DVI output and SDI input.

Running at 1280 X 960. 75 hz and Panamorph.
Well, upping the contrast above 56 (default 50) is not an option as the HDL clips out the whites at that setting, so is pretty useless. So, unfortunately, I have had to calibrate my memory block for the HDL at almost 40% less light output than the Faroudja. This could be the major stumbling block for me and I hope there is some workaround...

Mark
Mark_H's Avatar Mark_H 03:55 PM 05-11-2003
Quote:
Originally posted by thirdkind
I'll have both the included RP62 as well as a modded RP82 I bought separately from JVB to test out with the HDL's SDI input. I'll post my comments tomorrow night after I've hooked everything up and have had the time to watch some stuff.

I don't have Queen of the Damned, but I do have The Fifth Element and The Matrix, so I'll look for the artifacts that others above are describing.
If you get a chance, check via SDI and component... I do not see the artefacts when viewing through component, only SDI... I have no idea why that would be.

Mark
Allen Fleener's Avatar Allen Fleener 04:21 PM 05-11-2003
Mark H:

Is the picture better the same or worse when you use SDI versus component from the DVD player?
Nick Satullo's Avatar Nick Satullo 04:26 PM 05-11-2003
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark_H
Does anybody else feel that the HD Leeza's output is too low?

Prior to installing the HD Leeza I measured a full 100 IRE white field from the Faroudja, using the Milori Eye and read 36.5 cd/m2.

I'm now attempting to do greyscale on the HDL and at 100 IRE can only achieve 13-14 cd/m2 (SDI) *if* I push contrast high on the projector (which I don't want to do). Via component I was able to get 20 cd/m2.

I just switched back to the Faroudja and boy is there a difference! The Faroudja's image is *SO* much brighter and more vibrant... :confused:

Mark
Mark:

I'm not familiar with the Milori Eye, nor for that matter with the measurements of cd/m2. I assume it's a brightness/contrast measurement, however, and I get the idea . . . was your comparison to the Faroudja component video to component video (as opposed to SDI from the HDL to Faroudja component?)

I've got the K-Mart version of your setup (mine is the 8" NECXG135LC2, with the Faroudja NRS at 720p), so I'm grateful that I'll have a week's worth of your comments before I tinker with mine. I could try it with the 720p memory that's already there, but there are several different options (like 960p, and scaling 1080i to 1080p) that I'll wait to all have done at once. I currently don't use the NRS for a HD pass through, as I have the HD signal going directly to the projector. That may change with the HDL, but, after setup, I intend to live with it for a bit before deciding whether to permanently get rid of the Faroudja. I have a gnawing feeling that, for my setup, I may not really improve on 720p for DVD playback or, for that matter, 1080i for HD. Only trying it will tell.

The brightness issue is the only one I've read of these comments that concerns me. I will not be using SDI, however (reasons posted elsewhere), and am going to be curious to see if it differs input to input. DVD will be component video, and HD will be VGA RGB.

Thanks for all your help and insightful comments.

Nick :cool:
Art Sonneborn's Avatar Art Sonneborn 06:05 PM 05-11-2003
If there is no answer for the HDL requiring the CRT PJs to be calibrated at a 40% reduction in light output then that would be the deal breaker for me. I'm just getting about 12fL now try 7fL :( :( . I know I had to go to the Extron transcoder when similar light output/ calibration issues came up with the KD product that could not be worked out.



Art
David F's Avatar David F 06:25 PM 05-11-2003
I'm also a CRT user and if there's that much reduction in light output I'll have to stick with the Digital Leeza. I can't afford that much drop-off.

Dave Harper, I'll let you know when I get mine in and set up and if you're interested you can stop by and play with it.
dahester's Avatar dahester 07:08 PM 05-11-2003
I detect a hardware mod coming soon...Usually the output level is set by an external resistor on the video DAC. This will be an easy fix for the soldering savvy...

-Dylan
joeycalda's Avatar joeycalda 07:13 PM 05-11-2003
Mark,
I am very interested as well , how it compares with the Meridan component to the Faroujda-component to the Leeza . I have not heard any comments on s-video satellite. Faroujda handles this very well. We all know that sdi should yield a cleaner and sharper image than component. If the Faroudja had a sdi input it would be perfectly fair. Actually a DCS would be even better than the f5000. My Lexicon MC 12 used to cut out all the time. Sold it. Hope this is quick fix.
Thanks JC
thebland's Avatar thebland 07:38 PM 05-11-2003
As a note, I was able to eliminate the 60 hz sync issue on my DILA by changing the resolution.

My projector at 1280 X 960 at 60 hz loses sync every 1-2 seconds.

When I changed the res to 1365 X 1024, I was finally able to lock in 60 hz refresh, the stuttering ceased and deinterlacing snapped right into place and the overall noise floor of DVDs was substantially cleaned up. The picture became most liquid and jaggies disappeared. Obviously, the wrong res and refresh is devastating. The difference from the internal scaler is very significant.

My wife picked it out immediately. We were seeing detail and tectures that we never saw in our regular DVDs we watch.

However, I did notice some horizontal banding of the picture. I have to experiment a little more to find out if it is a LEEZa artifact or something else.

I still have to get the picture to fit my 16:9 screen with my Panamorph.

I will be playing with the various input ARs and tweaking my Panamorph next to get a true 16:9 picture.

Slowly but surely, it is shaping up.
reg152's Avatar reg152 08:22 PM 05-11-2003
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark_H
Does anybody else feel that the HD Leeza's output is too low?

Prior to installing the HD Leeza I measured a full 100 IRE white field from the Faroudja, using the Milori Eye and read 36.5 cd/m2.

I'm now attempting to do greyscale on the HDL and at 100 IRE can only achieve 13-14 cd/m2 (SDI) *if* I push contrast high on the projector (which I don't want to do). Via component I was able to get 20 cd/m2.

I just switched back to the Faroudja and boy is there a difference! The Faroudja's image is *SO* much brighter and more vibrant... :confused:

Mark
I second the Faroudja being much brighter and vibrant. I went from the NRS 720P to the HDL and back to the NRS. This was running my RP-82 in interlaced mode through the SD component input. I really had to push the projector hard (**CONTRAST**) to get the "punch" I got with the NRS.

~Ryan
reg152's Avatar reg152 08:24 PM 05-11-2003
Quote:
Originally posted by DHarp193
Thanks Alan, it needed that:)!!!

Anyone in the Central PA area have one yet that I can check out on my own? I am anxious to see this thing in action.
Dave,

I'm in York and have one all hooked up. PM me if you would like to see it.

Ryan
lovingdvd's Avatar lovingdvd 08:27 PM 05-11-2003
HDL sounds fantastic but I have to agree that it will be a deal breaker if it turns out that it reduces the overall brightness I'm getting now without any external scaler (currently using the internal scaler/deinterlacer of my Sharp 10K).
Tony Costanza's Avatar Tony Costanza 09:28 PM 05-11-2003
thebland comment
"When I changed the res to 1365 X 1024, I was finally able to lock in 60 hz refresh

Jeff - Are you saying that you were able to input 1365 x 1024 on 1:1 mode? If you are using panel mode than I would suggest trying 1280 x 1024. From what I understand any input over 1280 is resized down by the projector which could mean the projector is scaling twice.

TonyC
Nick Satullo's Avatar Nick Satullo 10:24 PM 05-11-2003
Ummmhh . . . okay, I hooked it up (despite the fact that I wanted to wait for a pro to do it). At first I couldn't get it to detect a signal, then realized that, for all my earlier clamoring, my DVD players output an interlaced signal. Swapping the component inputs to SD got me my signal . . . and my picture.

Remember, I was not outputting it through SDI, but component. and I'm also firing onto a large screen (123" diagonal) and I did not notice a significant loss of brightness . . .but I did notice the image was slightly washed out . . . and, if we're using the word "punch" . . .well, the Faroudja NRS packed a solid one and these were glancing blows.

My DVD Changer is controlled by a convergence unit called Entre (it's really an Escient Fireball). There is a pungent gray and orange screen that appears to lists the shiny discs that repose in one's collections, and they are handsomely dispalyed across the screen. I have had the Entre two years now, with the NRS for two years, and it is an image I know well.

It seemed a bit blurred, as if the image had been soaked in dishwater. You get the point . . .

Nonetheless, when I shifted to the 960p resolution all the punch and more jumped in, though the picture clearly needed sizing and h/v adjustments that I have yet to tinker with. Ahh, more, Ahh, bad tidings. . . . perhaps?

If I had to say, based on my one hour of use tonight (which was only goaded by the comments on brightness), I would say HDL has shifted to underdog in replacing the Faroudja NRS. That can change when Chuck applies his talents to the deal, but, if not, then the albeit-limited but excellent Faroudja NRS shall remain in my system forevermore. Or, until the next neat product . . .

Nick :cool:
oferlaor's Avatar oferlaor 01:08 AM 05-12-2003
Tony,

Keep in mind that there's a significant difference between scaling up and scaling down. Scaling up is usually the result of most of the artifacts most people see. Scaling down is much easier and is definitely less devestating to PQ.
Mark_H's Avatar Mark_H 01:50 AM 05-12-2003
Quote:
Originally posted by Allen Fleener
Mark H:

Is the picture better the same or worse when you use SDI versus component from the DVD player?
The SDI connection results in a sharper image than the component input. It's not a huge difference, but definately there. The SDI image is also much cleaner than the component, which introduces grain and video noise.

Mark.
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