The Official HD Leeza review thread. - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 07:30 AM
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Hi Ofer,

Quote:
Originally posted by oferlaor
Regarding punch, it does sound like Faroudja might be doing some contrast bandwidth expansion. I wonder how this can be tested for (I can't think of a way). This is, again, kind of cheating - as it improves the detail, but "changes the movie" (i.e., it's not outputting the same thing the director was looking at when he was shooting).
Starting to get off topic now, but as long as the projector is properly calibrated for greyscale and colour then how can it not be outputting what the director (cinematographer?) intended?

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post #182 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 07:35 AM
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oferlaor:

I agree with what you state. But, is there any difference with respect to crt aging/stress, if, for example, the scaler outputs a 700 mv signal, and the projector is calibrated to output a predetermined amount of light (for example, 12 foot candles), by, for example, adjusting the contrast setting on the projector to, for example, 60, vs. using a scaler that outputs a 1 volt signal, and calibrating the projector to output the same predetermined amount of light (e.g., 12 foot candles), by setting the projector's constrast setting to, for example, 50. The light output is the same in both cases, and thus, shouldn't the stress/aging of the tubes should be the same?

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post #183 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 07:39 AM
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Mark:

You posted your response as I was typing the above post.

I also don't understand how it could make a difference. It seems to me that if the crt tubes are being driven the same (regardless of whether the contrast is increased at the scaler or the projector), the output image should be the same. Perhaps a crt tube expert can shed light on this.

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post #184 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by steve
Mark:

You posted your response as I was typing the above post.

I also don't understand how it could make a difference. It seems to me that if the crt tubes are being driven the same (regardless of whether the contrast is increased at the scaler or the projector), the output image should be the same. Perhaps a crt tube expert can shed light on this.

Steve
Me neither, Steve. Don't forget though, it's not just the tubes but the entire CRT system which is working hard to generate a high light output level. If some of the burden can be moved to the scaler it makes the projector's job a lot easier?

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post #185 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 07:45 AM
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Mark

Have you attempted to watch a film all the way through using the Panny SDI player??

Just interested to know whether this cured the drop out issues. I will be running a modded Denon 3300 player and have been slightly concerned at your findings. Gordon will be installing my HD leeza in just over a week on my 9inch CRT so am following this thread with great interest.

Does your issue with the brightness shift when switching inputs or is this a constant problem (??) on all inputs?

Cheers

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post #186 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 07:55 AM
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Hi Elliot,

Quote:
Originally posted by Elliot
Mark

Have you attempted to watch a film all the way through using the Panny SDI player??
No not yet, but my next film will be on the Panny. I suspect the SDI problems I've seen are all related to my Meridian SDI card and some incompatibility therein.

Quote:

Just interested to know whether this cured the drop out issues. I will be running a modded Denon 3300 player and have been slightly concerned at your findings. Gordon will be installing my HD leeza in just over a week on my 9inch CRT so am following this thread with great interest.
My observations were that the component output was brighter than the SDI output (but with subsequent loss of picture quality) but still nowhere near bright enough for my liking.

Next test is to measure direct light output from the Panny HD-1000 DVHS deck, the JVC D-Theater deck and an Accupel HDTV test signal generator and then the same systems going through the Faroudja at default contrast and then the HDL at default contrast... this will prove nothing of course - as has been pointed out, scoping is the only way to see the real answers, but if the HDL is the only low output device it will reinforce my confidence that what I am posting is correct ;)

We need to remember that these are pre-release models and this is hopefully a teething problem. *IF* however, Key say they are working to spec, and that no change is required, then I think that the HDL is not for CRT users unless they like watching very dim images :( But let's not jump the gun, just yet... :D

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post #187 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 08:01 AM
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Hi Mark

I have been witness to problems with the SDI card in the Meridian, and the fault was picture drop out.

This was using the 800 series into a Runco (i think) plasma screen with SDI input, it dropped out so frequently that during a demo they gave up, therefore i also suspect that this is the cause of your problems.

Brightness is a key factor, i am running a Stuart perf screen (admittedly in a total blackout room) but i do like a bright image with punch. Lets hope this is another of the teething problems :(

Gordon does not seem too worried, and for that reason i am confident things will be rectified :)

I look forward to further results in your testing.
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post #188 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 08:03 AM
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I was also under the impression that these were not pre production models??
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post #189 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 08:18 AM
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Mark_H,

Indeed - this is worth a thread of its own. In short, this is changing the linearity of the grayscale. Essentially, this is dynamic gamma curve that changes as it responds to the movie (in dark scene, it can expand the darker IREs, so you get essentially more detail at the expense of a slightly brighter scene than the director intended). Dynamic bandwidth expansion defeats the calibration, somewhat...

Please let us know your test results with actual numbers, as this will be very interesting!

Steve,

That's exactly correct. The problem would be primarily for a non-calibrated displays (which the majority of displays are).

Elliot,

It's a question of terminology. This series is definitely not the major production run that most people will get their systems from. I'm not sure how many were manufactured, but it's not a huge amount. Most people will get their systems in June, during the larger production run.

If you choose to call these "preproduction" systems, I guess you can... Except for the 15 systems with a minor fan issue, we've not yet established that there are any hardware issues with these units. Most of the issues we discussed appear to require tweaks.

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post #190 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
I guess what I'm asking is this: when CRT users used the digital leeza in the past, did they have similar problems? Did they need to punch up the settings from the digital leeza as well, and if so how well did that work?
I have a Digital Leeza and NEC 9pg. The Leeza replaced a CrystalImage scaler, but I'll be damned if I can remember there being a brightness issue when I switched. I can tell you I don't have a problem with brightness now, and my current Stewart screen is actually a little larger than the previous Draper screen.

I don't think this is an issue with the Digital Leeza.

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post #191 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by PF
And Andreas,

Please, enough already. Let's be real here. Faroudja processors don't increase phosphor burn. They are accused of lots of things mostly having do with price, but that is not one of them.
I suggest you read again what I wrote.

There is nothing wrong with what I wrote. I didn't say Faroudja processors increase phosphor burn. If they have a too hot signal (and I heard they have) then this must be taken care of when doing a calibration. Otherwise the increased level will mean more energy to the phosphor if the input stages don't clip and if the CRT was calibrated for a 700 mV signal.

Nothing to argue about. It just means we need to measure that stuff before any comment regarding reduced brightness is worth a discussion.


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post #192 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by oferlaor
Mark_H,
Please let us know your test results with actual numbers, as this will be very interesting!
Here they are. Note, I only used the Accupel HDTV signal generator, as it didn't make much sense to use the DVHS players without test patterns.

Projector contrast set to middway. Measured 2ft from the screen with a Milori GretachMacbeth Eye One. Pattern was 100 IRE field. Measurements in cd/m2


______________________________mid contrast_____max contrast
Accupel direct to PJ___ 25.54
Via HD Leeza_______________________11.98__________14.50
Via Faroudja 5000___________________16.86__________47.6

Draw your own conclusions ;)

Mark.

PS 14.5 max for HDL is not a typo :eek:

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post #193 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elliot
Hi Mark

I have been witness to problems with the SDI card in the Meridian, and the fault was picture drop out.

This was using the 800 series into a Runco (i think) plasma screen with SDI input, it dropped out so frequently that during a demo they gave up, therefore i also suspect that this is the cause of your problems.
Ouch, thats not what I wanted to hear. I've had the SDI card in the 800 for almost a year(?) just waiting for the opportunity to use it ... :(

Quote:

Gordon does not seem too worried, and for that reason i am confident things will be rectified :)
Indeed. Hopefully, we're all working together to make the HDL the best product it can be :D

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post #194 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 08:55 AM
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Mark and Ofer:

Ofer:
O.K. I thought it should be the same for a calibrated projector.

Mark:

If you increase the contrast setting on the projector so that you get a 100 IRE reading of 16.86 (same as you currently have with the F5000) when using the HDL, does the picture appear better, equal to or worse than with the F5000?

I assume your projector was calibrated using the F5000. Based on what I think Ofer stated above, if you calibrate the projector with the HDL to produce the same picture (and light output) that the projector produces when calibrated with the F5000, there should be no additional stress, etc. on the projector. Correct?

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post #195 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 09:00 AM
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mark,

I didn't mean to measure the light output. You need to scope out the output of the HDL and the NRS to determine if one of them is "hot" (i.e., voltage output stronger than 700mv).

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
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post #196 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 09:02 AM
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Sorry Mark :(

It was while i was at Meridian one day and they were championing this new card........which wasn't working :mad:

I am an installer (like Gordon) but my specialist area is not video calibration, i leave this to him!! this is a very interesting learning curve for me and can't wait to get into hi def! I have to admit to be being envious of your set up Mark, it sounds awesome :)
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post #197 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by oferlaor
mark,

I didn't mean to measure the light output. You need to scope out the output of the HDL and the NRS to determine if one of them is "hot" (i.e., voltage output stronger than 700mv).
I don't have a scope, so this is the best I can offer. My assumption is that the Accupel *is* correctly rated on it's output and yet, even ignoring the Faroudja results, the HDL *at max contrast* only manages about 60% of the Accupel's output.

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post #198 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by steve
I assume your projector was calibrated using the F5000. Based on what I think Ofer stated above, if you calibrate the projector with the HDL to produce the same picture (and light output) that the projector produces when calibrated with the F5000, there should be no additional stress, etc. on the projector. Correct?
At this stage in time, incorrect. See my post above on why raising contrast at the PJ is a "bad thing". I currently have to raise the contrast significantly (30 steps) when using the HDL to get even halfway towards the Faroudja calibrated setting. This introduces all the stress related nasties I outlined.

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post #199 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
GretachMacbeth Eye One. Pattern was 100 IRE field. Measurements in cd/m2
Mark,

you should take into account that the cd/m2 readings of the EyeOne are
-politely spoken- inaccurate. I am not even sure if the error is linear but I suspect not.

Colorfacts 3.0 is supposed to fix this. At least that is what I was told.

Regards,
Andreas
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post #200 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
I don't have a scope, so this is the best I can offer. My assumption is that the Accupel *is* correctly rated on it's output and yet, even ignoring the Faroudja results, the HDL *at max contrast* only manages about 60% of the Accupel's output.
If anybody has an analog multimeter, you can also measure this. An analog multimeter will display an average of the voltage (w.r.t. response time of the meter), so it could be used to get a rather rough idea of the voltages present on the component/RGB output of each scaler. Definitely not enough for a scientific comparison, but enough to let you know if you're on the right track. Just don't measure any lines which hold sync info (i.e. don't measure Y on component, or H/V lines on RGB).

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post #201 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andreas Griess
Mark,

you should take into account that the cd/m2 readings of the EyeOne are
-politely spoken- inaccurate. I am not even sure if the error is linear but I suspect not.

Colorfacts 3.0 is supposed to fix this. At least that is what I was told.

Regards,
Andreas
Why is the Eye-One inaccurate? It does a bang up job on my computer monitor (and my inkjet printer). Can you give me a reference (link) for further study on this?

However, even if the Eye-One is inaccurate the readings taken by Mark should all be realtive to one another (ie, they should all have the same inaccuracies).

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post #202 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 09:56 AM
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Head... brick wall...

bang bang bang bang *thud*

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post #203 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 10:02 AM
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Yes, but unless we know how the error affects the results, it's difficult to relate the results to each other (is the error linear? is it logarithmic?).

Go the voltage route first. It's best to measure close to the source. Otherwise you've got an unknown between your test instrument and the instrument under test.

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post #204 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark_H
Head... brick wall...

bang bang bang bang *thud*
I am sorry. I didn't mean to hurt you :)

Geof,

you need to talk to Gretag or Milori about why the results are not correct. I just went deep enough to recognize that the measurements have not much in common with illumination measurement.

You should notice that there is a difference between the spectral response that the sensor delivers and it's cd/qm readout. The former is ok (or perfect) but the latter is just off and needs to be fixed (in hardware or software). Your calibration will be fine but you cannot trust the illumination measurements.

Regards,
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post #205 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark_H
At this stage in time, incorrect. See my post above on why raising contrast at the PJ is a "bad thing". I currently have to raise the contrast significantly (30 steps) when using the HDL to get even halfway towards the Faroudja calibrated setting. This introduces all the stress related nasties I outlined.

Mark
What projector stress? It takes a given voltage on the tube cathode to produce a given light output. That's it. It doesn't matter where the gain is made, either in the projector or the scaler.

The contrast control in any projector is simply a video level control. In the case of an analog CRT device, believe me, there is plenty of headroom in the gain stages throughout the projector. We are probably talking about a discrepence between 600mv and 1v here. This is well within the dynamic range of any gain stage in the projector. When we get to an actual stress point such as the cathode drive transistors, the gain is already there. So it's the same voltage level no matter where the gain was applied. I.E. in the projector or the scaler.

Yes, both KD and Faroudja should be outputting 700mv at 100ire but if not, adjusting the contrast of the projector is not going to hurt anything.

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post #206 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 10:25 AM
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Mark - someone asked an important question that I didn't see an answer to. In the cd/m2 readouts, is it possible to then increase the pj contrast when viewing through the HDL so that you get higher cd/m2 without introducing clipping or other issues? In other words with all settings being as they were the light output is reduced, but perhaps you then have the opportunity to compensate for this at the pj by increasing the pjs contrast without causing any issues. Please let us know. Thanks!
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post #207 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by lovingdvd
Mark - someone asked an important question that I didn't see an answer to. In the cd/m2 readouts, is it possible to then increase the pj contrast when viewing through the HDL so that you get higher cd/m2 without introducing clipping or other issues?
Yes, to a certain degree. As noted, the projector's contrast was set to 50, so there is plenty of room for movement.

Quote:

In other words with all settings being as they were the light output is reduced, but perhaps you then have the opportunity to compensate for this at the pj by increasing the pjs contrast without causing any issues. Please let us know. Thanks!
To an extent. This goes right back to my initial posts about how I attempted to do just this but was unable to due to the lack of output available from the HDL

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post #208 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 10:40 AM
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I thought Mark already answered this with both the fact that even maxing out the contrast didn't get to the optimized Faroudja settings and caused the whites to clip to boot.

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post #209 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glimmie
What projector stress? It takes a given voltage on the tube cathode to produce a given light output. That's it. It doesn't matter where the gain is made, either in the projector or the scaler.

The contrast control in any projector is simply a video level control. In the case of an analog CRT device, believe me, there is plenty of headroom in the gain stages throughout the projector. We are probably talking about a discrepence between 600mv and 1v here. This is well within the dynamic range of any gain stage in the projector. When we get to an actual stress point such as the cathode drive transistors, the gain is already there. So it's the same voltage level no matter where the gain was applied. I.E. in the projector or the scaler.

Yes, both KD and Faroudja should be outputting 700mv at 100ire but if not, adjusting the contrast of the projector is not going to hurt anything.
Glimmie, I'm not disputing what you're saying, but I'd be grateful if you'd read the post [#180] where I described the different effects of setting contrast in the projector vs setting it in the scaler and then put forward some possible reasons for why I'm seeing what I see.

I'm not making it up as I go along, honest ;)

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post #210 of 1632 Old 05-13-2003, 10:44 AM
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Location: Europe
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Quote:
Originally posted by joeycalda
Napp.
Modified by www.vigatec.de , they also modify a bunch of others.

JC
Joey, I didn't get it : you mean Vigatec SDI-modifies the Panasonic players distributed by KDS? I thought it was KDS to do that.

Thanks, NAPP
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