What does the Vertex do over the Integral and Linker? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 158 Old 08-25-2017, 10:47 AM
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Vertex improvement continues...

If user selects Matrix Thru/Swap, an additional line now appears for RX1 and RX0 as you can see from attached picture.
Also, a separate Edid for each input port is now available.
The Port1 is by default "Follow port 0" so you can just select port 0 custom EDID and it will be applied to both. However, if you open Port1 pull down menu you can select separately for it.
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post #62 of 158 Old 08-27-2017, 12:39 PM
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Can the vertex or Integral and linker for that matter, downscale (for lack of a better term) 4K/60 to 4K/24?
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post #63 of 158 Old 08-27-2017, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
Can the vertex or Integral and linker for that matter, downscale (for lack of a better term) 4K/60 to 4K/24?
No, that's frame conversion/frame interpolation that requires a lot more processing power (hence a lot more expensive devices).
The Linker/Vertex do up/downscaling of resolution/bit depth/chroma subsampling, not frame conversion/interpolation.
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post #64 of 158 Old 08-29-2017, 10:27 AM
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I tried to download firmware + IR code list but the download bar in the browser doesn't pop up. Is this blocked until release date?
I would like the prepare the IR command list into the iRule database to kill some time before 1 november.
I did the Integral previously and it still gets daily use through my remote setup.

Stereo is simply Multichannel light.
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post #65 of 158 Old 08-29-2017, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post
I tried to download firmware + IR code list but the download bar in the browser doesn't pop up. Is this blocked until release date?
I would like the prepare the IR command list into the iRule database to kill some time before 1 november.
I did the Integral previously and it still gets daily use through my remote setup.
We will start adding them shortly as it get close to what we want for launch.

And to please a few, we just added RS232 total control support.

examples of the rs232 interface
#set hdrstr 87:01:1a:b0:02:00:c2:33:c4:86:4c:1d:b8:0b:d0:84:80 :3e:13:3d:42:40:a0:0f:32:00:e8:03:90:01
#set hdrcustom on

The above just send the hdr string over console and enable the injection.
this process can easily be automated now (to control from LINUX/MAC/WIN) and not just WIN.
We've been adding all commands and documenting it in a .doc file

#set edidmode automix
#set edidtable 8
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post #66 of 158 Old 09-03-2017, 09:18 AM
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My X950 is connected with celerity cable from my HDMI 1 out from my CXA 5100 yamaha pre/pro to the HDMI 1 input in the pj. How am I going to put the vertex, since there's no small celerity cables such as one or two meters. If I can use another high speed HDMI cable, the vertex will be placed before or after the yamaha? By the way, my BD 205 is just about to come. Does the vertex used to strip metadata is able to supress the stripping metadata of the Oppo 205, so it won`t happen the black crushing. Forgive me if I understood wrong.

Last edited by Walter Santos Filho; 09-03-2017 at 02:29 PM.
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post #67 of 158 Old 09-04-2017, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Santos Filho View Post
My X950 is connected with celerity cable from my HDMI 1 out from my CXA 5100 yamaha pre/pro to the HDMI 1 input in the pj. How am I going to put the vertex, since there's no small celerity cables such as one or two meters. If I can use another high speed HDMI cable, the vertex will be placed before or after the yamaha? By the way, my BD 205 is just about to come. Does the vertex used to strip metadata is able to supress the stripping metadata of the Oppo 205, so it won`t happen the black crushing. Forgive me if I understood wrong.

You can use any high speed cable, Vertex is less sensitive to cable issue than Integral.
You can place it before AVR if you need it for one source or two sources only, or you can place it after AVR if you need it for all sources connected to your AVR.

You can also place it before AVR for one source and after AVR for all sources at the same time using the 18Gbps Matrix.

Last edited by HDfury; 09-05-2017 at 07:07 AM.
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post #68 of 158 Old 09-04-2017, 07:43 AM
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Does the Vertex maintain a internal sampling of 4:4:4 Chroma when up scaling (1080p/60 RGB 4:4:4 In = 2160p/60 RGB 4:4:4 Out)?

Last edited by hexcode99; 09-04-2017 at 07:51 AM.
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post #69 of 158 Old 09-04-2017, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Santos Filho View Post
...By the way, my BD 205 is just about to come. Does the vertex used to strip metadata is able to supress the stripping metadata of the Oppo 205, so it won`t happen the black crushing. Forgive me if I understood wrong.
No, there is nothing the Vertex can do to prevent the Oppo from clipping blacks when it converts HDR to SDR BT.2020, as I replied to your post in the JVC projector thread.
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post #70 of 158 Old 09-05-2017, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hexcode99 View Post
Does the Vertex maintain a internal sampling of 4:4:4 Chroma when up scaling (1080p/60 RGB 4:4:4 In = 2160p/60 RGB 4:4:4 Out)?
The details of scaling algo are not available at the moment, so we cannot confirm for sure how it is done but we have room to offer control over it, which means that the scaling algo parameters are not fixed and you will be able to play with the variable at some time (need some more GUI work for that).
It could be deducted from the output if internal sampling was 4:4:4, but for this we first need to unlock all possible parameters and variables. so that's typically a question we might be able to answer at release or shortly after.
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post #71 of 158 Old 09-05-2017, 08:03 AM
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I missed the GoBlue requirement as well. It should be offered in some sort of bundle in the same way the HDMI cable options are shown along with the descriotion, "Needed for Bluetooth connectivity".
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post #72 of 158 Old 09-05-2017, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
The details of scaling algo are not available at the moment, so we cannot confirm for sure how it is done but we have room to offer control over it, which means that the scaling algo parameters are not fixed and you will be able to play with the variable at some time (need some more GUI work for that).
It could be deducted from the output if internal sampling was 4:4:4, but for this we first need to unlock all possible parameters and variables. so that's typically a question we might be able to answer at release or shortly after.
I have a Vertex on pre-order, but this is kind of a big deal. If it doesn't maintain 4:4:4 on in/out, won't really be of use for me.
There is no way to find out for sure until after my order has shipped?
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post #73 of 158 Old 09-05-2017, 10:50 PM
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I'm looking to buy either the Linker or the Vertex, my setup is as follows:

Oppo 203
Marantz 7010
JVC X5000
Panasonic TH-P60ST60A (so non HDCP2.2/HDMI2.0 plasma)

Currently I'm running the Oppo 203 directly to the PJ for video and to the Marantz for audio (and using my old Oppo BDP83 for BD to TV).

What I'd like to do is run the Oppo 203 via one cable to the Marantz to display on both the PJ & TV (taking the Oppo83 out of the system )

Before I decided to take the 83 out of the equation I was just going to use a Linker between the 203 and PJ to stop the JVC from defaulting to Gamma D everytime it stops or restarts as I'm about to calibrate the JVC, the Linker would be fine for that.

However now that I want to remove the 83 and run the 203 to the Marantz for both the PJ and TV would I now need the Vertex instead to achieve this?

I hope this makes some sort of sense.
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post #74 of 158 Old 09-06-2017, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syaoran View Post
I missed the GoBlue requirement as well. It should be offered in some sort of bundle in the same way the HDMI cable options are shown along with the descriotion, "Needed for Bluetooth connectivity".
Yes correct, we will make it more clear once we have time, thank you for the suggestion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hexcode99 View Post
I have a Vertex on pre-order, but this is kind of a big deal. If it doesn't maintain 4:4:4 on in/out, won't really be of use for me.
There is no way to find out for sure until after my order has shipped?
It's proprietary information which we don't know, we only have access to variables and parameters for it, so the real test is through excel spreadsheet test like we and others have done for Linker previously.
And since we don't judge our picture quality ourselves, we never did and always let users speak about it. You would need to wait first test to make your opinion.

All i can tell you right now is that it use patented technology called Super Resolution with Grad and Expansion Control, Edge Correction Control, Enhancer Merge Control and Enhancer Re-Correction Control.
You can find same technology in many high end equipment, however, we intend to bring you custom control on all of that, but we are looking for somewhere after the release for that. (since we never promised all that for release ..)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazz063 View Post
I'm looking to buy either the Linker or the Vertex, my setup is as follows:

Oppo 203
Marantz 7010
JVC X5000
Panasonic TH-P60ST60A (so non HDCP2.2/HDMI2.0 plasma)

Currently I'm running the Oppo 203 directly to the PJ for video and to the Marantz for audio (and using my old Oppo BDP83 for BD to TV).

What I'd like to do is run the Oppo 203 via one cable to the Marantz to display on both the PJ & TV (taking the Oppo83 out of the system )

Before I decided to take the 83 out of the equation I was just going to use a Linker between the 203 and PJ to stop the JVC from defaulting to Gamma D everytime it stops or restarts as I'm about to calibrate the JVC, the Linker would be fine for that.

However now that I want to remove the 83 and run the 203 to the Marantz for both the PJ and TV would I now need the Vertex instead to achieve this?

I hope this makes some sort of sense.
Well i would say Vertex is the right choice if you have the budget, or you can get Linker now and use the discount to preorder Vertex, so you got both for approx the price of Vertex alone.

Last edited by HDfury; 09-06-2017 at 02:50 PM.
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post #75 of 158 Old 09-06-2017, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
It's proprietary information which we don't know, we only have access to variables and parameters for it, so the real test is through excel spreadsheet test like we have done Linker previously.
And since we don't judge our picture quality ourselves, we never did and always let users speak about it. You would need to wait first test to make your opinion.

All i can tell you right now is that it use patented technology called Super Resolution with Grad and Expansion Control, Edge Correction Control, Enhancer Merge Control and Enhancer Re-Correction Control.
You can find same technology in many high end equipment, however, we intend to bring you custom control on all of that, but we are looking for somewhere after the release for that. (since we never promised all that for release ..)
Since the information on Vertex is not available, how would my (1080p/60 RGB 4:4:4 In = 2160p/60 RGB 4:4:4 Out) question play out on the Linker?
Would it maintain the internal sampling of 4:4:4?
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post #76 of 158 Old 09-06-2017, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hexcode99 View Post
Since the information on Vertex is not available, how would my (1080p/60 RGB 4:4:4 In = 2160p/60 RGB 4:4:4 Out) question play out on the Linker?
Would it maintain the internal sampling of 4:4:4?
Estimated is 4:2:2 for Linker (by us and others), we expect Vertex to be higher.
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post #77 of 158 Old 09-07-2017, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
Estimated is 4:2:2 for Linker (by us and others), we expect Vertex to be higher.
Hi,

I hope Vertex will maintain 4:4:4. Based on what you are saying, sounds like it might.
Nevertheless, I will not open mine until I get a confirmation one way or the other.

Thanks
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post #78 of 158 Old 09-07-2017, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hexcode99 View Post
Hi,

I hope Vertex will maintain 4:4:4. Based on what you are saying, sounds like it might.
Nevertheless, I will not open mine until I get a confirmation one way or the other.

Thanks
Ok we will more likely try to check it and provide more info before it ships.
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post #79 of 158 Old 09-08-2017, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post

Well i would say Vertex is the right choice if you have the budget, or you can get Linker now and use the discount to preorder Vertex, so you got both for approx the price of Vertex alone.
Thanks, that settles it, Vertex it is then.
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post #80 of 158 Old 09-12-2017, 12:53 PM
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Manni01 and claw,
Can you please let us know how you think the HD to 4K upscaling of the Vertex compares to the DMP-900 or UDP-203?
Thanks

Last edited by Dundas; 09-12-2017 at 01:27 PM.
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post #81 of 158 Old 09-12-2017, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dundas View Post
Manni01 and claw,
Can you please let us know how you think the HD to 4K upscaling of the Vertex compares to the DMP-900 or UDP-203?
Thanks
Sorry but I'm not using the Vertex to upscale, only to downscale to my 1080p Dell PC Monitor.

I use MadVR to upscale my 1080p content to 4K and the UB900 to play UHD Bluray almost exclusively.

I don't have the time to do comparative tests re upscaling quality at the moment as that's not one of my uses for the Vertex.

Maybe Claw will be able to comment.
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post #82 of 158 Old 09-15-2017, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dundas View Post
Manni01 and claw,
Can you please let us know how you think the HD to 4K upscaling of the Vertex compares to the DMP-900 or UDP-203?
Thanks
One thing to consider is that the Vertex will only upscale 1080p to 4K. It will not upscale 1080i or 720p HD from cable TV boxes.

I have fed my HTPC Blu Ray 1080p output into both the Oppo HDMI input and the Vertex for upscaling to 4K. Visually, I don't see a difference in quality. I also had my Denon AVR upscale Directv 1080i and 720p to 1080p and then have the Vertex upscale it to 4K. This also looked as good to me as when I have the Denon upscale directly to 4K.

I see no reason to have my Oppo output 1080p and put the upscaling responsibility to the Vertex so I have not tested this.

The main reason I might have the Vertex do some scaling is so that it always outputs the same 4K24 and 4K60 formats whether it is the Oppo Home Screen, a Blu Ray disc, or a UHD disc. For example, always convert all input signal formats to either 4K24 4:4:4 BT.2020 12-bit and either 4K60 4:2:2 BT.2020 12-bit or 4K60 4:2:0 BT.2020 12-bit depending upon the frame rate of the input. Doing this seems to reduce the JVC video sync time a bit when I have both the Oppo Home Screen and UHD disc playback sent to the JVC as 4K24 4:4:4 BT.2020 12-bit instead of the Home Screen sent as 4K24 4:4:4 Rec709 12-bit when the Oppo is configured to UHD 24Hz. Though it might be my imagination. The JVC video sync time is already quicker with the Vertex compared to either the Linker or Integral.

CJ

Last edited by claw; 09-15-2017 at 12:44 PM.
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post #83 of 158 Old 09-15-2017, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
The main reason I might have the Vertex do some scaling is so that it always outputs the same 4K24 and 4K60 formats whether it is the Oppo Home Screen, a Blu Ray disc, or a UHD disc. For example, always convert all input signal formats to either 4K24 4:4:4 BT.2020 12-bit and either 4K60 4:2:2 BT.2020 12-bit or 4K60 4:2:0 BT.2020 12-bit depending upon the frame rate of the input.
So does that mean you're having the Vertex map Rec.709 into Rec.2020?
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post #84 of 158 Old 09-15-2017, 02:51 PM
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The LG OLEDs currently use the static metadata to select the tone-mapping. They also have a dynamic contrast setting that enables "Active HDR".


Is it possible to use the Vertex send static metadata values that override the disk to select the desired tone-mapping?
For example, always send max nits of 1000.


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post #85 of 158 Old 09-15-2017, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
One thing to consider is that the Vertex will only upscale 1080p to 4K. It will not upscale 1080i or 720p HD from cable TV boxes.

I have fed my HTPC Blu Ray 1080p output into both the Oppo HDMI input and the Vertex for upscaling to 4K. Visually, I don't see a difference in quality. I also had my Denon AVR upscale Directv 1080i and 720p to 1080p and then have the Vertex upscale it to 4K. This also looked as good to me as when I have the Denon upscale directly to 4K.

I see no reason to have my Oppo output 1080p and put the upscaling responsibility to the Vertex so I have not tested this.

The main reason I might have the Vertex do some scaling is so that it always outputs the same 4K24 and 4K60 formats whether it is the Oppo Home Screen, a Blu Ray disc, or a UHD disc. For example, always convert all input signal formats to either 4K24 4:4:4 BT.2020 12-bit and either 4K60 4:2:2 BT.2020 12-bit or 4K60 4:2:0 BT.2020 12-bit depending upon the frame rate of the input. Doing this seems to reduce the JVC video sync time a bit when I have both the Oppo Home Screen and UHD disc playback sent to the JVC as 4K24 4:4:4 BT.2020 12-bit instead of the Home Screen sent as 4K24 4:4:4 Rec709 12-bit when the Oppo is configured to UHD 24Hz. Though it might be my imagination. The JVC video sync time is already quicker with the Vertex compared to either the Linker or Integral.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
So does that mean you're having the Vertex map Rec.709 into Rec.2020?

And also can the linker do this so as to reduce JVC Sync times/occurrences? My panny also outputs home menu in 709 so Rec.2020 would avoid an extra sync.
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post #86 of 158 Old 09-15-2017, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank D View Post
And also can the linker do this so as to reduce JVC Sync times/occurrences? My panny also outputs home menu in 709 so Rec.2020 would avoid an extra sync.
Yes, I have the Vertex converting REC709 to BT.2020. I don't think it makes much if any real difference in the sync times. HDCP handshaking is still the main culprit. And I don't think you can have the Panasonic player output 4K24 for its Home Screen like I can with the Oppo.

I haven't tried this with the Linker but I believe it is possible.

CJ
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post #87 of 158 Old 09-16-2017, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
Yes, I have the Vertex converting REC709 to BT.2020. I don't think it makes much if any real difference in the sync times. HDCP handshaking is still the main culprit. And I don't think you can have the Panasonic player output 4K24 for its Home Screen like I can with the Oppo.

I haven't tried this with the Linker but I believe it is possible.
I assume that's with the 3x3 matrix functionality?
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post #88 of 158 Old 09-16-2017, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I assume that's with the 3x3 matrix functionality?
The Scalar tab on both the Vertex GUI and Linker GUI allows you to choose the output Color Space and Bit Depth. I have never tried it with the Linker.

CJ
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post #89 of 158 Old 09-16-2017, 09:32 AM
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I'll have to take a look, I assumed that just changed the metadata. Are you picking a Rec.709 color profile for Rec.709 content even though you have the Vertex set to output Rec.2020?
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post #90 of 158 Old 09-16-2017, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I'll have to take a look, I assumed that just changed the metadata. Are you picking a Rec.709 color profile for Rec.709 content even though you have the Vertex set to output Rec.2020?
Yes I am still using the REC709 profile in my JVC. I am really just experimenting with the Vertex scaling options at this point. I haven't considered or know what the Vertex does when making the conversion.

CJ
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