What does the Vertex do over the Integral and Linker? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 102 Old 07-21-2017, 08:19 AM - Thread Starter
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What does the Vertex do over the Integral and Linker?

I'm trying to figure out what the Vertex actually does as it appears it is a Linker and Integral all in one. The website is vague. Can it do more than these two devices? I'm a current Integral owner and was looking at a Linker for a while, but now that the Vertex is coming up I'm just now a bit confused.
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post #2 of 102 Old 07-21-2017, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AekaGSR View Post
I'm trying to figure out what the Vertex actually does as it appears it is a Linker and Integral all in one. The website is vague. Can it do more than these two devices? I'm a current Integral owner and was looking at a Linker for a while, but now that the Vertex is coming up I'm just now a bit confused.
Ok, first you can have a look here: https://www.hdfury.com/comparison

I'll try to summarize a few points below:

Integral is 18Gbps Splitter and 10.2 Gbps Matrix.
Linker is 18Gbps Scaler

Vertex is 18Gbps Splitter/Matrix/Scaler and can scale each channel individually as explained previously in the thread that disappeared, with Vertex ultimately you can input input 4K downscale to 1080p, apply treatment from external 1080p box to the signal and inject back into Vertex secondary channel that will upscale back to 4K at the end. this particular situation show how versatile it can be as it would require 2 Linker to do the same.
So basically it's like INTEGRAL + 2 Linker combined.

Vertex have higher signal integrity than Integral and will support more marginal cables for 600MHz.

Vertex have OLED and multiple info pages on it that will provide all information you ever wanted to have or know and those you didn't even knew they existed.
It provides more infos than Linker or Integral at first sight without need of GUI, APP or anything. it's all available at sight and from your fingertips at anytime.

Vertex also offers OSD fully customizable in colors, position, transparency, and that can be used for others purpose that signal info, removing annoying tv channel logo, or displaying custom text, etc...
Integral or Linker does not have any of this.

Vertex can cipher and decipher HDR metadata in real time, have VSIF injection/extraction/replacement, once again neither Integral or Linker have any of this. (those are for power users or content creators mainly)

Vertex have the most advanced Windows GUI we ever did, and except the fact that our GUI doesn't scale well on all display resolutions, we are known to have some of the most advanced GUI in our field.
It's oriented and made for all the guys who was in touch with us here, you can EXPORT, IMPORT and share your config with others users. once again, Integral and Linker do not have those.

I'll stop listing here, as we can add a lot of some others small things, like RS232 and possible external add ons, etc...

Bottom line: This is not marketing gimmick, we tried to build the ultimate AV toolbox and our guys worked extremely hard on it as they put all they had into it to celebrate our 10th anniversary, we are proud of work done till now on it and we believe it's a great and amazing platform and that's why we are offering a dream ticket to switch to it.

Now if you want to know, does it switch faster or sync faster on JVC PJ, or upscale quality or others stuff like that, please wait Beta testers feedback (Claw and Manni on AVSforum), as we let real non affiliated users provide such information as always.
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post #3 of 102 Old 07-21-2017, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. I own a 2014 model JVC PJ (1.4b). What is Manni01 and Claw using? I'm curious about the signal integrity as I currently have to run a signal booster on a 30 foot cable, without it I cannot resolve 4k @60hz. I'd love to ditch the booster as it is far from perfect.
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post #4 of 102 Old 07-22-2017, 02:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AekaGSR View Post
Thanks. I own a 2014 model JVC PJ (1.4b). What is Manni01 and Claw using? I'm curious about the signal integrity as I currently have to run a signal booster on a 30 foot cable, without it I cannot resolve 4k @60hz. I'd love to ditch the booster as it is far from perfect.
They will post/comment later once they received the board and had time to test a bit. Please be patient for a couple of weeks.
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post #5 of 102 Old 08-02-2017, 07:50 AM
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Can the Vertex perform a vertical stretch for watching 2.35:1 content without letterbox bars on a Constant Height screen with a projector and anamorphic lens?

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post #6 of 102 Old 08-03-2017, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
Can the Vertex perform a vertical stretch for watching 2.35:1 content without letterbox bars on a Constant Height screen with a projector and anamorphic lens?
No ! only Lumagen Radiance Pro can do that currently on the market (AFAIK)
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post #7 of 102 Old 08-03-2017, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
No ! only Lumagen Radiance Pro can do that currently on the market (AFAIK)
Is this something that could be added later? The Vertex already has a scaler built into it, right?

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post #8 of 102 Old 08-03-2017, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
Is this something that could be added later? The Vertex already has a scaler built into it, right?
It's a matter of insufficient horsepower and flexibility in the chipset, not whether a scaler is included or not. @HDfury has said that the Vertex just won't have the ability to add this sort of functionality. It's certainly possible they may find ways to add in some of these sorts of features after they spend more time working with the chipset(s) they're using, but we shouldn't get our hopes too high that they can include functionality that's currently only available in devices that cost thousands of dollars in a device that costs a few hundred.
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post #9 of 102 Old 08-03-2017, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
It's a matter of insufficient horsepower and flexibility in the chipset, not whether a scaler is included or not. @HDfury has said that the Vertex just won't have the ability to add this sort of functionality. It's certainly possible they may find ways to add in some of these sorts of features after they spend more time working with the chipset(s) they're using, but we shouldn't get our hopes too high that they can include functionality that's currently only available in devices that cost thousands of dollars in a device that costs a few hundred.
Disappointing, but thanks for the explanation.

For what it's worth, the same functionality is built into the OPPO UHD player, which costs $550. However, the player has limitations on what it can scale due to Java garbage on the discs. This would make it better to do the scaling externally after decoding.

I also want to be clear that I'm only talking about a linear vertical stretch to eliminate the letterbox bars, not the more complex non-linear horizontal stretch features that the Lumagen processor also offers.

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post #10 of 102 Old 08-03-2017, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
Disappointing, but thanks for the explanation.

For what it's worth, the same functionality is built into the OPPO UHD player, which costs $550. However, the player has limitations on what it can scale due to Java garbage on the discs. This would make it better to do the scaling externally after decoding.

I also want to be clear that I'm only talking about a linear vertical stretch to eliminate the letterbox bars, not the more complex non-linear horizontal stretch features that the Lumagen processor also offers.
That will either result in a cropped or distorted picture, so I suspect both HDFury and I assumed you were asking for the more complex stretch features. FWIW, I'm a beta tester for Oppo, but don't use that stretch functionality because I don't have a display that would benefit from it.
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post #11 of 102 Old 08-03-2017, 10:03 AM
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Is this the thread that will have the beta testers results?
thanks
dan

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post #12 of 102 Old 08-03-2017, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
That will either result in a cropped or distorted picture, so I suspect both HDFury and I assumed you were asking for the more complex stretch features. FWIW, I'm a beta tester for Oppo, but don't use that stretch functionality because I don't have a display that would benefit from it.
The purpose of the stretch is to crop out the letterbox bars and use the full pixel panel for movie content. Picture geometry is restored by placing an anamorphic lens in front of the projector.

This feature has been included in all of OPPO's Blu-ray players, but BD-Java prevents it from working on some content.

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post #13 of 102 Old 08-03-2017, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
Disappointing, but thanks for the explanation.

For what it's worth, the same functionality is built into the OPPO UHD player, which costs $550. However, the player has limitations on what it can scale due to Java garbage on the discs. This would make it better to do the scaling externally after decoding.

I also want to be clear that I'm only talking about a linear vertical stretch to eliminate the letterbox bars, not the more complex non-linear horizontal stretch features that the Lumagen processor also offers.
Not exactly, UHD BR player can do it for UHD BR since they are decoding/handling the content at source level. for example, they cannot do it for embedded app like netflix isn't it ?

This being said, affordable 600MHz FPGA will be out next year so at least 1 more full year is needed to see anything close to doing what you want at decent price. and yes it's disappointing.
Usually, once this happens, then 1200 MHz HDMI standard comes out and everybody wants the same for 1200MHz, and then it will cost multi thousands $ again

Quote:
Originally Posted by D_B_0673 View Post
Is this the thread that will have the beta testers results?
thanks
dan
sometime ago i could answer that, today i cannot and don't know
i would say, just look around in due time.
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post #14 of 102 Old 08-03-2017, 06:52 PM
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Not exactly, UHD BR player can do it for UHD BR since they are decoding/handling the content at source level. for example, they cannot do it for embedded app like netflix isn't it ?
According to this thread, the OPPO player can stretch UHD BR discs with HDR10, but can't do it for discs with Dolby Vision.

3D Blu-rays are also frequently problematic.

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post #15 of 102 Old 08-03-2017, 07:41 PM
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According to this thread, the OPPO player can stretch UHD BR discs with HDR10, but can't do it for discs with Dolby Vision.

3D Blu-rays are also frequently problematic.
Much of this (on the Oppo) comes down to licensing restrictions rather than the hardware not having enough horsepower. For Dolby Vision, Dolby wants complete control over everything video related, so a LOT of the video processing functionality of the Oppo players is disabled when playing Dolby Vision content.

@HDfury , the Oppo UDP-20x players don't currently have any apps (Netflix, etc.), so it's hard to say with certainty if they could apply the scaling, but I don't see why not as they would still be decoding a video stream, it would just be coming over the Internet instead of off a optical disc. For example, the players can apply the same processing that's available for Blurays and UHD Blurays to video played via DLNA or SMB shares (just without some of the silly issues that Java introduces when playing optical discs).
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post #16 of 102 Old 08-04-2017, 12:02 PM
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Why can the Vertex only upscale 1080p to 4k and not something like 720p or 480p to 4k as well?
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post #17 of 102 Old 08-04-2017, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by hexcode99 View Post
Why can the Vertex only upscale 1080p to 4k and not something like 720p or 480p to 4k as well?
you do that with FPGA, we have FPGA for 0 <> 200MHz, it's HDfury4

So you upscale 480p/720p/1080i to 1080p with HDF4 and then you upscale 1080p/FHD to 2160p/UHD up to 600MHz with Vertex

FPGA at 600MHz is currently too expensive (it's lumagen radiance pro)

Vertex is limited to FHD<>UHD 18Gbps by asic design.
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post #18 of 102 Old 08-04-2017, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AekaGSR View Post
Thanks. I own a 2014 model JVC PJ (1.4b). What is Manni01 and Claw using? I'm curious about the signal integrity as I currently have to run a signal booster on a 30 foot cable, without it I cannot resolve 4k @60hz. I'd love to ditch the booster as it is far from perfect.
I have a JVC RS500 projector.

I have the Vertex prototype connected between my Oppo 203 player and my Denon x4200w AVR. My RS500 is connected to the AVR with a 25 foot Blue Jeans Series-1e HDMI cable.

Since switching to the Blue Jeans cable I have not had any video sync loss which I used to have with previous cables when playing YouTube 4K60 videos from my Samsung UHD player, or when playing the Billy Lynn 4K60 UHD disc from my Oppo. So I can't say whether the Vertex has improved signal integrity with respect to HDMI cable distance.

But I can say I am very pleased how much smoother my RS500 syncs to resolution changes with the Vertex in the device chain. When I start playback of a UHD disc there are none of the No HDMI input messages flashing on the screen until the sync is completed. Just a blank screen, then audio starts, and then followed by the video. I am getting the UHD disc menu displayed at around 25 seconds after pressing enter on the Oppo remote. The sync time is consistent and I have not encountered the up to 35 second syncs that would sometimes occur with the Linker in the chain. After stopping UHD disc playback I get the Oppo menu displayed after 20 seconds. This is with the Oppo set to auto resolution, auto color space, and auto bit-depth. (Those who do not have JVC projectors will cringe at the thought of a 25 second sync time. But even without any HDFury device in the chain it takes the JVCs up to 20 seconds to sync to UHD disc playback.)

I have experimented with Sink EDID, EDID 2, and EDID 8. All seem to work well. In fact, so far I have not had a single sync failure when powering on the components or starting/stopping UHD disc playback. I repeated some of the test scenarios that had previously failed with the Linker until HDFury released new firmware to address them; mostly related to Denon/Marantz AVRs. Repeated start/stop playback of UHD discs was always successful. Repeated AVR input switching between my Directv C61 4K box and my Oppo was always successful; even with the Oppo playing the Billy Lynn 4K60 UHD disc and the C61K playing a 4K60 DVR recording.

I also tested connecting a 1080p TV to one of the Vertex HDMI outputs. I was able to successfully upscale 1080p Blu Ray playback from my HTPC to 4k on the HDMI output to the RS500 while simultaneously sending 1080p to the TV. I was also successful down scaling UHD disc playback to 1080p for the TV while simultaneously sending 4K to the RS500. I had previously used the Linker to down scale 4k to 1080p to the TV but the Vertex seems better at being able to drive both displays concurrently at different resolutions than the Linker was able to do down scaling to the TV alone.

The Vertex also seems to have resolved a loss of sync with my Directv C61K when changing from 4K60 channels/recordings to 1080i or 720p channels. This had been an aggravating issue that has occurred since the very first day I got the C61K. I would have to power restart the C61K each time. But with the C61K connected to the Vertex I can repeatedly switch from 4K60 to non-4k channels without any loss of sync.

There are some minor issues with the Vertex that I have reported but they should be addressed in the next test firmware.

Just now, my Oppo completed playing the Billy Lynn UHD disc start to finish at 4K60 4:2:2 12-bit HDR (with Vertex EDID 2 and the Disable HDR metadata flag set) without a single HDMI related hiccup.
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Last edited by claw; 08-04-2017 at 11:23 PM.
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post #19 of 102 Old 08-04-2017, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
you do that with FPGA, we have FPGA for 0 <> 200MHz, it's HDfury4

So you upscale 480p/720p/1080i to 1080p with HDF4 and then you upscale 1080p/FHD to 2160p/UHD up to 600MHz with Vertex

FPGA at 600MHz is currently too expensive (it's lumagen radiance pro)

Vertex is limited to FHD<>UHD 18Gbps by asic design.
But the HDF4/Vertex combo would not work with a device such as the Directv C61K that can output either 480p/720p/1080i/1080p/4k24/4k60 depending upon the channel. The HDF4 would not be able to handle the 4K input.

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post #20 of 102 Old 08-05-2017, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
But the HDF4/Vertex combo would not work with a device such as the Directv C61K that can output either 480p/720p/1080i/1080p/4k24/4k60 depending upon the channel. The HDF4 would not be able to handle the 4K input.
Obviously correct, i was talking about SD/HD/FHD (aka HDMI 1.x) sources to HDMI 2.x sink. DirecTV C61K is already HDMI 2.x

So yes, we all know it, ultimate solution to handle any possible case of upscaling/downscaling, color correction or aspect ratio or even frame rate conversion, need a 600MHz FPGA design.
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post #21 of 102 Old 08-07-2017, 12:05 PM
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I like what I'm seeing with the Vertex... my only issue is that I know HDMI 2.1 is right around the corner.

Sony 65" A1E | Sony 65" XBR 930C | Denon X4200W @ 5.1 | HTPC - Windows 10 with WMC | Gaming PC - Windows 10, Nvidia GTX 1080Ti | PS4 Pro | Apple TV 3rd Gen
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I like what I'm seeing with the Vertex... my only issue is that I know HDMI 2.1 is right around the corner.

Oh yes, but 1200MHz working setup (which is the promise of HDMI2.1) is not at the corner, not even in the right street yet
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Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
Oh yes, but 1200MHz working setup (which is the promise of HDMI2.1) is not at the corner, not even in the right street yet


My most anticipated feature is VRR... Do you know if you'll be able to implement this into the Vertex once the standard is released? 1080p @ 120hz VRR or 4k @ 60hz VRR would be awesome from my gaming PC to my Sony OLED.

120hz 4k or 10/12 bit with full subsampling would be nice too, but I'm not too concerned about that

8k/10k, I could care less about for now.
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Originally Posted by assplats View Post


My most anticipated feature is VRR... Do you know if you'll be able to implement this into the Vertex once the standard is released? 1080p @ 120hz VRR or 4k @ 60hz VRR would be awesome from my gaming PC to my Sony OLED.

120hz 4k or 10/12 bit with full subsampling would be nice too, but I'm not too concerned about that

8k/10k, I could care less about for now.


More likely the world will need new chipset for VRR and more likely you won't see anything concrete in a shop before 2 years in this field.
First let them come out with hdmi cable that works for 1200MHz without changing connector
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post #25 of 102 Old 08-08-2017, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
More likely the world will need new chipset for VRR and more likely you won't see anything concrete in a shop before 2 years in this field.
First let them come out with hdmi cable that works for 1200MHz without changing connector
Haha, it took them this long to get 600mhz cables to work right... I can't wait to see how long this takes. Hopefully it won't be an issue this time.

But, yeah, I guessed it would be a chipset update and would take a few years when I finally decided to buy the new TV... Otherwise, I would have waited.
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post #26 of 102 Old 08-08-2017, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
I have a JVC RS500 projector.

I have the Vertex prototype connected between my Oppo 203 player and my Denon x4200w AVR. My RS500 is connected to the AVR with a 25 foot Blue Jeans Series-1e HDMI cable.

Since switching to the Blue Jeans cable I have not had any video sync loss which I used to have with previous cables when playing YouTube 4K60 videos from my Samsung UHD player, or when playing the Billy Lynn 4K60 UHD disc from my Oppo. So I can't say whether the Vertex has improved signal integrity with respect to HDMI cable distance.

But I can say I am very pleased how much smoother my RS500 syncs to resolution changes with the Vertex in the device chain. When I start playback of a UHD disc there are none of the No HDMI input messages flashing on the screen until the sync is completed. Just a blank screen, then audio starts, and then followed by the video. I am getting the UHD disc menu displayed at around 25 seconds after pressing enter on the Oppo remote. The sync time is consistent and I have not encountered the up to 35 second syncs that would sometimes occur with the Linker in the chain. After stopping UHD disc playback I get the Oppo menu displayed after 20 seconds. This is with the Oppo set to auto resolution, auto color space, and auto bit-depth. (Those who do not have JVC projectors will cringe at the thought of a 25 second sync time. But even without any HDFury device in the chain it takes the JVCs up to 20 seconds to sync to UHD disc playback.)

I have experimented with Sink EDID, EDID 2, and EDID 8. All seem to work well. In fact, so far I have not had a single sync failure when powering on the components or starting/stopping UHD disc playback. I repeated some of the test scenarios that had previously failed with the Linker until HDFury released new firmware to address them; mostly related to Denon/Marantz AVRs. Repeated start/stop playback of UHD discs was always successful. Repeated AVR input switching between my Directv C61 4K box and my Oppo was always successful; even with the Oppo playing the Billy Lynn 4K60 UHD disc and the C61K playing a 4K60 DVR recording.

I also tested connecting a 1080p TV to one of the Vertex HDMI outputs. I was able to successfully upscale 1080p Blu Ray playback from my HTPC to 4k on the HDMI output to the RS500 while simultaneously sending 1080p to the TV. I was also successful down scaling UHD disc playback to 1080p for the TV while simultaneously sending 4K to the RS500. I had previously used the Linker to down scale 4k to 1080p to the TV but the Vertex seems better at being able to drive both displays concurrently at different resolutions than the Linker was able to do down scaling to the TV alone.

The Vertex also seems to have resolved a loss of sync with my Directv C61K when changing from 4K60 channels/recordings to 1080i or 720p channels. This had been an aggravating issue that has occurred since the very first day I got the C61K. I would have to power restart the C61K each time. But with the C61K connected to the Vertex I can repeatedly switch from 4K60 to non-4k channels without any loss of sync.

There are some minor issues with the Vertex that I have reported but they should be addressed in the next test firmware.

Just now, my Oppo completed playing the Billy Lynn UHD disc start to finish at 4K60 4:2:2 12-bit HDR (with Vertex EDID 2 and the Disable HDR metadata flag set) without a single HDMI related hiccup.
Since at the moment the OPPO cannot do a good job in HDR to SDR BT.2020, will the Vertex do the conversion? And if so would you select "source direct" out of the OPPO.
Thanks again
dan

Dan

Last edited by D_B_0673; 08-08-2017 at 01:32 PM.
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post #27 of 102 Old 08-08-2017, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I went ahead and pre ordered one. It was an easy choice with the discount to Integral owners. But I would still would love to hear from the beta testers, hopefully soon.
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post #28 of 102 Old 08-09-2017, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by AekaGSR View Post
I went ahead and pre ordered one. It was an easy choice with the discount to Integral owners. But I would still would love to hear from the beta testers, hopefully soon.
What does the Vertex do over the Integral and Linker?

What else would you like to know?

CJ
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post #29 of 102 Old 08-09-2017, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh wow i totally missed your quote. I think that answered my burning questions. I was unaware that Billy Lynn was 60fps. I have a 2014 JVC model which can only do 4k60fps at 8 bit, no BT2020. I can do 4k24fps with BT2020 all day long with the Integral.

If I understand it right the vertex should be able to take the 4k60fps 12bit BT2020 and scale it down to 1080p60fps with BT2020 12bit, correct?
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post #30 of 102 Old 08-10-2017, 12:00 AM
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Oh wow i totally missed your quote. I think that answered my burning questions. I was unaware that Billy Lynn was 60fps. I have a 2014 JVC model which can only do 4k60fps at 8 bit, no BT2020. I can do 4k24fps with BT2020 all day long with the Integral.

If I understand it right the vertex should be able to take the 4k60fps 12bit BT2020 and scale it down to 1080p60fps with BT2020 12bit, correct?
Yes I was able to do that.

I set the Scaling option for the top Vertex output to scale 4K60 to:
Mode: 1080p60
Color Space: 444 BT.2020
Deep Color: Follow

Since I have the Oppo, to get SDR BT.2020 I have to use the Oppo Strip Metadata option and set the Vertex EDID to one that supports HDR like EDID 8. Those with the Panasonic player would only need to set EDID 10 to get SDR BT.2020.

I played the Billy Lynn UHD disc and the Vertex reported

Input: 4K59.934 420 BT2020 12b
Output: 1080p59.934 444 BT2020 12b

My Denon x4200w reported 1080p60 BT.2020 4:4:4 12 bit input and output. My JVC RS500 reported 1080p60 12 bit and no HDR.

Screen shot of the Vertex GUI attached.
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Last edited by claw; 08-11-2017 at 01:22 PM.
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