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post #181 of 2943 Old 01-04-2004, 03:59 AM
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Hi Dale,
Real easy question, will the Iscan HD have separate RGBHV out put using separate BNC connectors, or will it be the 15pin VGA output?
Apologies if this has already been covered, I have followed this thread but couldn't see it mentioned anywhere.
Thanks in Advance...
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post #182 of 2943 Old 01-04-2004, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andrew J.Giusti
Real easy question, will the Iscan HD have separate RGBHV out put using separate BNC connectors, or will it be the 15pin VGA output?
It's a 15-pin VGA connector.

- Dale Adams
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post #183 of 2943 Old 01-04-2004, 10:49 AM
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Is it possible to send an "interlaced" 480i signal over DVI to the iScan HD?
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post #184 of 2943 Old 01-04-2004, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by cpc
Is it possible to send an "interlaced" 480i signal over DVI to the iScan HD?
Yes - theoretically at least, and assuming the signal conforms to EIA/CEA-861. We haven't tested it yet.

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post #185 of 2943 Old 01-04-2004, 12:04 PM
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Wow. You are answering loads of questions. People here surely appreciate it, I know I do.

The resolutions that projector owners deal with above 480p are 540p, 720p and 960p. Will the iScan HD do 960p? I don't know if there are many projectors that do that yet, at least not in the $3500.00 USD and below level. Or do people prefer 1080i over 960p. A whole other debate I guess. Just wondering about 960p since the LCD projectors are slowly marching up from 480>540>720p so it won't be long before Panasonic , Sanyo, Epson etc have a 960p projector for the less expensive market. I don't even know if 960p is used much but it seems a logical choice in many situations, especially DVD, since its a precise doubling of 480p.
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post #186 of 2943 Old 01-04-2004, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by cpc
The resolutions that projector owners deal with above 480p are 540p, 720p and 960p. Will the iScan HD do 960p? I don't know if there are many projectors that do that yet, at least not in the $3500.00 USD and below level. Or do people prefer 1080i over 960p. A whole other debate I guess. Just wondering about 960p since the LCD projectors are slowly marching up from 480>540>720p so it won't be long before Panasonic , Sanyo, Epson etc have a 960p projector for the less expensive market. I don't even know if 960p is used much but it seems a logical choice in many situations, especially DVD, since its a precise doubling of 480p.
The iScan HD does support 960p. It has 2 predefined resolutions which could be called "960p": 1280x960 and 1440x960.

Note that while there may not be many (any?) digital displays or projectors which are 960p right now, that 960p is a common requirement of CRT projector owners who want to want to minimize scaling artifacts by having a precise doubling of the source resolution in both dimensions.

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post #187 of 2943 Old 01-04-2004, 03:37 PM
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Hi Dale,

I am long time user of iScan. I had iScan Plus many years ago, then upgrade to iScan Pro. I am using iScan pro a lot when I watch my Tivo recordings.

I am interested to purchase Sony HS20 projector soon. I was over my friend house checking his HS10 few days ago and I noticed that the PQ was so much better when we used direct through mode. His dvd player has DCDi built in. That told me that the deinterlacer and scaler in the Sony was not good enough.

Do you know any compatibility issues if I want to use my own progressive DVD player and customer scale 480p to 1366X768 (HS20's native rez?) by iScan HD?

I will definitly stop by your booth at CES.

Xiaoyu,
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post #188 of 2943 Old 01-04-2004, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by xiaoyu
I am interested to purchase Sony HS20 projector soon. I was over my friend house checking his HS10 few days ago and I noticed that the PQ was so much better when we used direct through mode. His dvd player has DCDi built in. That told me that the deinterlacer and scaler in the Sony was not good enough.

Do you know any compatibility issues if I want to use my own progressive DVD player and customer scale 480p to 1366X768 (HS20's native rez?) by iScan HD?
You can certainly feed the 480p output of your progressive player into one of the iScan HD's component inputs. You can then scale the DVD player's output to 1366x768 (which is a predefined output format). However, I thought the HS20 had a bit of an oddball resolution of 1386x788, or is this a typo in Sony's specs? In any event, you can either use the predefined resolution of 1366x768 or define your own custom resolution of 1386x768. Also, since the Sony projector has an HDMI input, you can use the iScan's DVI output (along with the appropriate cable adapter) to get a direct digital link between the iScan and the projector.

Note that we haven't had a chance to actually test with the HS20 yet, but I don't know of any reason why it shouldn't be compatible with the iScan HD.

- Dale Adams
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post #189 of 2943 Old 01-04-2004, 05:27 PM
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Very cool. Interesting though that the widest 960p aspect ratio supported is 1.5. I guess 1080p, although a ways off, will be 16:9? I know 1080i is, correct?

1) Can an interlaced signal from a DVD player say on S-video or component cables be fed into the iScan HD and output from the iScan HD via DVI as fully deinterlaced and scaled at any of the iScan HD's output resolutions?

From your discussion regarding the Sony projector above it sounds like the below is possible, but to be sure, I'll ask specifically here:

2) Can you take a DVD players 480p output via component and feed it into the iScan HD and output on DVI at any of the iScan HD's output resolutions? Only scaled of course.

I'm thinking of handy ways to connect DVD players via regular connections, but be able to deinterlace and scale in the iScan HD and output via DVI for the highest quality signal for use with LCD projectors. Point being DVI input on projectors in one case has appeared to eliminate fixed pattern noise.
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post #190 of 2943 Old 01-04-2004, 06:15 PM
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Dale,

Can it be used as a constant height generator? I'm planning to use a 2.35:1 screen with side masking only. Bothering with PJ zoom is not option. I need to keep it simple for WAF! ;)
Thanks.

BWAHAHA!!! ;)

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post #191 of 2943 Old 01-04-2004, 06:39 PM
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Originally posted by danfii:

"Can it be used as a constant height generator? I'm planning to use a 2.35:1 screen with side masking only. Bothering with PJ zoom is not option."

I would also love to see an answer this his query since I too use a "scope" ratio-ed screen (but in my case and in addition to using video sources, 35mm and 70mm film formats are also projected on this screen).

It is a real hassle using such AR screens since my current display device (Dukane 9015 D-ILA projector) is of the 4:3 variety.
Using anamorphic lens attachments and an overhead rail projector mounting system that allows forward and aft motion of the D-ILA has only solved part of the problem, thus I too would like to keep it simple...

-THTS
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post #192 of 2943 Old 01-04-2004, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by danfii
Can it be used as a constant height generator? I'm planning to use a 2.35:1 screen with side masking only. Bothering with PJ zoom is not option. I need to keep it simple for WAF! ;)
Yes. If you set the output aspect ratio to 2.35:1, then any input aspect ratio that's less (wide) than that will show up centered with side bars (gray or black of your choosing).

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post #193 of 2943 Old 01-04-2004, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
The good news is that with the iScan HD we now have the option to provide either/or depending on the projector being used.
While it can convert Video levels to PC levels, you will take a hit in image quality because you are throwing away bits. You may also see banding because you know have gaps between levels. Of course you could apply error diffusion on top to smooth it out.

Most new digital displays designed for HT will allow you to properly set brightness and contrast and if they don't, don't buy them. :-)

The Z2 is a nice little display. I actually prefer it to the Sony HS20. The Z2 lets you send 1280x720 w/o re-scaling. (ie overscan.) It has two DVI modes, one or PC and one for video. I believe both allow you to adjust brightness. Only the video mode supports HDCP.

The iScan Ultra sounds like it is going to be a hot little product. I was loosing interest in external scalers until reading this thread. Between Auto CUE-C, lipsync and 48 Hz, it sounds like a steal at $1499.
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post #194 of 2943 Old 01-04-2004, 09:01 PM
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sspears and/or Dale,

Since the iScan HD will have the ability to send either a Digital PC Color level or a Digital Video Color level via it's DVI output what is the easiest way to identify which one to select for any particular display?

I guess one way would be to contact the displays manufacturer and ask, but I am thinking that a question such as this would be 50/50 on getting any kind of correct answer.

Would using a calibration DVD give you the information you need? A below black level test - pluge pattern perhaps?

Maybe this could be a future test pattern included with the iScan HD?

Food for thought...

Also, slightly off subject, how to software HTPC players do this type of conversion without an impact to the video quality? Since DVD's are authored using the Digital Video Color level, when a HTPC is used, I am assuming it is doing something to output a Digital PC Color level, but what I wonder?

Questions, Questions, Questions...

I love this hobby! :)

Regards,

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post #195 of 2943 Old 01-04-2004, 09:02 PM
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Hi Dale,

You are wonderful! And I can't help but ask a "hard" question about the Sony HS20 (or the HS10/11HT/12HT). The projector will only do pixel perfect mapping in 1366x768 at 56Hz. In a HTPC setup, 24fps film source usually plays ok but 60i native video source will have serious stutter. Many people reject the Sony projector due to this issue.

How about your new scaler under this situation?

regards,

Li On
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post #196 of 2943 Old 01-04-2004, 10:17 PM
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Dale,

I've already warned the wife of a purchase in the next couple weeks. Since CES is upon us and final pricing and launch date are probably getting closer to be finalized, I was wondering if an avs pre-launch power buy might be something dvdo and AVS may consider. Pretty please?

Thanks,
Andy
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post #197 of 2943 Old 01-04-2004, 10:35 PM
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PCs used to simply clip. With MCE 2004, they now produce video levels on the output. So with MCE 2004, and anything that uses VMR7 or 9 with the latest drivers from ATI and nVidia, nominal black is at 16 and nominal white is at 235. We worked hard to make that change occur. It was a rather long battle.

If the DVI input does not let you adjust brightness, then you might consider converting the levels. You will loose ~half a bit of the original data. (best guess)

personally, I would never convert video levels to PC levels. I would buy a new disply first. :) 2nd, I would use the gain/bias controls to adjust if brightness was not available.
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post #198 of 2943 Old 01-05-2004, 12:03 AM
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Originally posted by sspears:

"The Z2 is a nice little display. I actually prefer it to the Sony HS20. The Z2 lets you send 1280x720 w/o re-scaling. (ie overscan.) It has two DVI modes, one or PC and one for video. I believe both allow you to adjust brightness. Only the video mode supports HDCP."

Excuse my ignorance, but what is a Z2 and who makes it? Thanks!...

-THTS
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post #199 of 2943 Old 01-05-2004, 12:23 AM
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cpc,

Very standard actually, it's exactly double the DVD resolution. As we've learned, this is a most sought after resolution by CRT users who want minimal processing while removing scan-lines at the same time.

There are no devices that I'm aware of with 1706x960p native resolution, so I don't think doing 16:9 on 960p is relevant.

Dale,

Does the unit support fully customizable resolutions (e.g., the resolution noted above)? If so, is it on a per-pixel level, or is it at 8 pixel intervals?

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
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post #200 of 2943 Old 01-05-2004, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by sspears
PCs used to simply clip.
I can think of 2 ways of HTPC doing. It can expand (upsample?) the video 16-235 to 0-255. Or simply output the video 16-235 as is within the PC 0-255. Either way I don't see any "clip" from the source point of view.

"clip" may happen if the source outputs PC level and the display is in video level mode.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

regards,

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post #201 of 2943 Old 01-05-2004, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by sspears
While it can convert Video levels to PC levels, you will take a hit in image quality because you are throwing away bits. You may also see banding because you know have gaps between levels. Of course you could apply error diffusion on top to smooth it out.
We do this, by the way. As Stacey points out, otherwise you see some pretty noticeable banding.

Trivia: The original DVDO deinterlacer chip (about 5 years old now) did this as well. It had an output mode intended to work with 6-bit per color LCD displays and would downsample from 8 bits to 6 bits.

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post #202 of 2943 Old 01-05-2004, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Li On
And I can't help but ask a "hard" question about the Sony HS20 (or the HS10/11HT/12HT). The projector will only do pixel perfect mapping in 1366x768 at 56Hz. In a HTPC setup, 24fps film source usually plays ok but 60i native video source will have serious stutter. Many people reject the Sony projector due to this issue.

How about your new scaler under this situation?
When I look at information on the HS20 on one of Sony's websites, it says that the HS20 has a native resolution of 1386x788, not 1366x768. Is this a mistake?

In any event, while the iScan HD can output at 1366x768 at 56 Hz, you will most likely see the same motion stutter issues. Unless a processor is doing true motion compensation, this type of frame rate conversion will result in dropped frames, thus causing the stutter. The new iScan is no different.

Just out of curiosity, do you have any idea which is worse: not getting 1:1 pixel mapping or the 56 Hz motion problems? Also, do you know what the HS20 does if you send it a 60 Hz signal that's not at the projector's native resolution? Does it only display at 56 Hz, or will it do 60 Hz in this case?

- Dale Adams
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post #203 of 2943 Old 01-05-2004, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by AndyN
Since CES is upon us and final pricing and launch date are probably getting closer to be finalized, I was wondering if an avs pre-launch power buy might be something dvdo and AVS may consider.
Final pricing has already been set. MSRP for the iScan HD is $1499.

We haven't considered an AVS power-buy, but I'll run it by the sales and marketing folks here to see what they think. I suspect, though, that if we did such a thing it wouldn't be for a few months after the initial units ship. We'll likely be production-constrained until then.

- Dale Adams
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post #204 of 2943 Old 01-05-2004, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by oferlaor
Does the unit support fully customizable resolutions (e.g., the resolution noted above)? If so, is it on a per-pixel level, or is it at 8 pixel intervals?
Yes and sort-of.

Let me explain:
You can define your own custom output resolutions/timings. This is typically done by starting with one of the predefined formats and altering it to fit your needs.

While you can, for the most part, specify resolution/timing on single pixel boundaries, there are a few exceptions. These mainly have to do with limitations of a 4:2:2 format (the iScan HD internally processes at 4:2:2, by the way), where horizontal chroma resolution is only half of the luma resolution. This constrains certain horizontal timing parameters to 2-pixel boundaries. There are also some other restrictions, mainly having to do with maximum output resolutions and clock rates.

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post #205 of 2943 Old 01-05-2004, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Li On
I can think of 2 ways of HTPC doing. It can expand (upsample?) the video 16-235 to 0-255. Or simply output the video 16-235 as is within the PC 0-255. Either way I don't see any "clip" from the source point of view.
You can indeed get clipping with the first method. While 'video' luma levels are nominally constrained to the 16-235 range, there can often be undershoot or overshoot on these signals which causes them to go outside of 16-235. This is more common than you might think.

There are a number of reasons for this. I believe the full 8-bit signal range was not utilized it the first place because of under/overshoot in analog systems. It is very normal to see momentary levels under/overshoot the normal min/max in analog video. When analog video is transferred to digital, these excursions would have been clipped if the maximum 8-bit dynamic range were used for full black to full white. Instead, a subrange was used to allow the under/overshoot to be preserved.

Note that it's also fairly normal for digital filters to exhibit this type of behavior. These filters are very common and are found in many types of video processing including deinterlacing, scaling and sharpening.

- Dale Adams
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post #206 of 2943 Old 01-05-2004, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by sspears
If the DVI input does not let you adjust brightness, then you might consider converting the levels. You will loose ~half a bit of the original data. (best guess)
That sounds about right to me.

Quote:
personally, I would never convert video levels to PC levels. I would buy a new disply first. :) 2nd, I would use the gain/bias controls to adjust if brightness was not available.
On a digital display, I would expect that the brightness/contrast (and gain/bias, if they exist) would also be digital. (Yeah, I know there are still some digital displays that do all this in the analog domain, but I imagine that's being phased out. . . slowly. . . ;) ) If so, then how is adjusting these controls any different than having a dynamic range adjustment done digitally elsewhere?

Certainly, on an analog display such as a CRT you have the option of changing the gain or other operating parameters of an analog video amplifier, and so may not run into the issue of actually losing part of the signal's bit depth through digital clipping. But a digital display may well be different.

- Dale Adams
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post #207 of 2943 Old 01-05-2004, 10:00 AM
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If so, then how is adjusting these controls any different than having a dynamic range adjustment done digitally elsewhere?
On many HD2 and HD2+ DLPs, the gain / bias is done in the TI engine, which is opreating at 10-bits. example: The IF7200 has an 8-bit decoder. If you use the brightness control on the DVI input, it is done at 8-bit precision. (actually, I think they use the PixelWorks to adjust brightness on DVI input, but still 8-bit.) If you use the gain / bias, it is done in the TI part at 10-bit precision.

Of course a given display device may vary. It has always bothered me about adjusting levels on a digital display. It is like adjusting on a PC. A couple of wrongs clicks and the video is toast. :)

I think it is best if you can get the full data to the display and let it adjust at or near the point where it has the highest precision. Of course we really don't know what is happening, but tools like Avia Pro will make life a lot easier.

I have found that simply scaling will also cause over and undershoot in the digital levels. I imagine clipping after scaling would look even worse.
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post #208 of 2943 Old 01-05-2004, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dale Adams
We just call him 'Big Yellow Guy' (BYG). :D

Sorry, the suit is a trade secret. After all, how many other video processor makers do you see who have a BYG with a suit like that? :p
Like the yellow woman on the new DVDO home too. :)

What do you call her?

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post #209 of 2943 Old 01-05-2004, 03:02 PM
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Will the IScan-HD have individual RGB controls to adjust color decoding?

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post #210 of 2943 Old 01-05-2004, 05:53 PM
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Although I am intrigued by the iScan HD, I was wondering about the Ultra. If I connected a DVD player to the iScan Ultra via component cables, could I output to an LCD PJ like the Panny L300 (540p) or a Panny AE500 (720p) via DVI? I know I'd have to let the projector scale, but just the same, I'd have the aspect ratio zoom and DVI connection. This is a less expensive option for me if I upgrade my AE100 to one of the above projectors. So could I connect as I describe above?

thanx

:)
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