3 new scalers from Lumagen!! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1598 Old 03-07-2004, 03:00 AM
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Hi Jim

where would i purchase these scalers in Australia? as they sound awesome and would go perfectly with my new pioneer 504HDG

Thanks Stewart
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post #182 of 1598 Old 03-07-2004, 07:45 AM
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Ive read this whole thread but still have a couple of questions about SDI which I was hoping someone could answer.

Can the HDP model accept a 10bit SDI signal and process at 10bit through the propreitary processing?

Im dont understand all the SDI numbering but have a questions that might be related. At the moment most dvd players can be SDI modified to simply hi- jack the digital singal before it is HDCP encoded, please correct me if im wrong. Do you think the same will be possible with HD-DVD sources and can the new Lumagen untis process an HD SDI signal???
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post #183 of 1598 Old 03-07-2004, 08:19 AM
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Thanks Gordon and Jim for your time and answers. It was a most succinct answer and better yet, breathes new life into my SCART RGB enabled DVD player. For a moment there I thought I was going to have to upgrade yet another component but with the Vision DVI scaler, ironically, you've just saved me some serious re-cabling and component upgrade money (not to mention the fact that my projector has limited inputs anyway).

Slightly off topic, why do projector/plasma manufactures even bother A) adding a de-interlacer/scaler (usually of dubious quality anyway) , and B) adding so many inputs forcing users to either make many and lengthy cable runs or situating the components in the most inconvenient areas in order to shorten the runs?
Why not team up with a company like Lumagen and get them to build a kick-butt deinterlacer/scaler with many more inputs (at least 8 for example) that you would otherwise have on a projector/plasma (where input real estate is expensive) and run just one low transmission loss/low interferance cable (like fibre optic) to the projector?
The user saves a lot on cable runs, keeps the system flexible for the future, the projectors could be made a little cheaper (1 FO input and no de-interlace/scaler processing) and the quality would be increased through the use of the better scalers and a FO cable run. A win for all, no. I think SIM are doing this now with the Link model but its price is out of this world, kind of defeating the purpose really.

Am I missing something?

CI
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post #184 of 1598 Old 03-07-2004, 12:49 PM
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Stewart the Lumagen agents in Australia are Amber Technology 02 9452 8600.

Tony
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post #185 of 1598 Old 03-07-2004, 05:40 PM
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Thanks Tony :)
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post #186 of 1598 Old 03-07-2004, 06:33 PM
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Hi Ofer,
thanks for summing up the new features. They're big changes indeed but it's a bit discouraging when i just bought VisionProSDI recently (in fact just used it only few hours) and now its value drops to $800.

As i'm no technical guy, my next questions are;
- Is the new scaling significantly better than the old one?
- Does Genlock provide so much better result?
For DVI I/O, i'm not into it so much as i believe my Marquee 8500 would still serve me well for a big while, hence no plan for DLP or plasma in near future. Besides, my sources are mainly SD.

Thanks,
Chaiyos
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post #187 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 12:59 AM
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CI: You find that the commercial plasma's dont actually have lots of inputs they generally have a DVI or HD15 input and a slot for fitting input boards. The installer chooses the best input array for the job.

Plasma TV's work the way you suggest. The manufacturer runs a DVI or RGBHV output from the control switcher to the plasma. This control/switcher has all the inputs and the processing in it. Of course, the problem is as you say that this processing and that in the plasma itself are often not that great, particularily if you are in PAL territories.

Re SDI: Jim has alreday mentioned that although folka re sending 10Bit SDI to the Pro currently it is pnly procesing at 8Bit on the SDI input

Chaiyos: I think you'll find that you can sell your ProSDI for much more than $800. At present it is still one fo the best SDI in scalers available. It will be a while before anyone will be able to do the demo and decide just how much better the newer generation of scaling will be in these products. As your sources as mainly SD and your display is an analogue CRT I think you have one of the best units available for your current needs.

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post #188 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 01:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Ivan,

The reason is that a cheap solution is usually something that projector/plasma manufacturers prefer over optimizing PQ. Yvves Faroudja started his business after he tried, unsuccessfuly, to interest display manufacturers to put in a modified circuit (a new type of comb filter he designed) that would have added $5 to the cost of a new display. The manufacturers had no interest in solutions that increased costs, even if they significantly improved PQ. So, he went ahead to create his company...

Chayos,

As Gordon stated, the value of the unit is much more than $800. The real benefits are for DVI enabled displays. If your display has no DVI, the benefit would not be enormous (the Vision Pro + SDI already has fantastic good PQ...). Regarding improvements, if judder is something that specifically bothers you, then that would be of benefit (then again, the Vision Pro + SDI already has genlock for 60Hz, so if you're using 60Hz turn it on and you're all set). Regarding deinterlacing, the Sil504 will be the deinterlacer for both units. Ultimately, Lumgen plans to add another deinterlacing engine into the new units (the hardware is "Reprogrammable" enough on the unit to allow for such an upgrade through a firmware update). However, no schedule has been given on such an addition.

Personally, I'd prefer that they use that extra horsepower to scrub MPEG artifacts, as the Sil504 deinterlacer is already pretty good (less so on PAL, but it works very well on NTSC).

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
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post #189 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Fraser

Re SDI: Jim has alreday mentioned that although folka re sending 10Bit SDI to the Pro currently it is pnly procesing at 8Bit on the SDI input

Gordon
I think the question from krobar was refering to the new Vision HDP

Quote:
Can the HDP model accept a 10bit SDI signal and process at 10bit through the propreitary processing?
I got the feeling your reply was refering to the current Pro, though I may have got the wrong end of your stick...

Ryan
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post #190 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 02:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by chaiyos
Hi Jim,
I'm using Vision Pro SDI (your first genration which i just bought 2 months ago) with SD sources like LD, DVD, cable TV, Xbox, using Panny RP82 SDI-modded and Electrohome Marquee 8500. Will i see any improvements in picture quality (especially on DVD) if i move up to Vision HDP (with SDI and BNC options) or to Vision Pro HDP?

Thanks,
Chaiyos
The scaling quality will be improved in the new processors, even for SD sources. Some of these imporvements are:

- 3:3, and 2:2 pull-down reconstruction (inverse-telecine) for output at 48/1.001 and 72/1.001 for NTSC sources and 50 and 75 for PAL.

- New "film-mode" that bypasses the SiI504 and does inverse-telecine (VisionHDP and VisionPro HDP only). For analog inputs, this mode will process the oversampled video as oversampled all the way through the pipeline (The SiI504 needs the data at 720 pixels wide which is not oversampled). This will imporve the response near the Niquist frequency (6.75 MHz).

- Improved scaling algorithms.

- User adjustable image enhancement. This is mostly for sharpening up the edges (BTW: This is not a peaking filter unlike most "sharpness controls").

Using the SDI input will not show as much improvement over the current VisionPro with SDI input. However, there still will be improvement - most notibly edge sharping if you like that kind of thing (I'm not to big a believer in this, but a lot of people want it, so we put it in).

Most of the new features are geared toward digital in and out and HD sources. If you care most about DVDs and have a SDI VisionPro, you may not want to be in a hurry to upgrade, since the improvements with SDI input are smaller.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen

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post #191 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rhythmdoctor
where would i purchase these scalers in Australia? ...

Thanks Stewart
Stewart:
Our Austrailian distributor is:

Amber Technology Limited
Unit B
5 Skyline Place
Frenchs Forest NSW 2089
Australia
Office +61 (0)2 9452 8600
www.ambertech.com.au

Jim Peterson
Lumagen

Jim Peterson
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post #192 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 03:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Krobar
...Can the HDP model accept a 10bit SDI signal and process at 10bit through the propreitary processing?

... At the moment most dvd players can be SDI modified .... Do you think the same will be possible with HD-DVD sources and can the new Lumagen untis process an HD SDI signal???
Krobar:
We have choosen to keep the SDI interface at 8-bits. Most DVD players only output 8-bits - although as pointed out earlier in this thread, there are reasons to want 10-bits. We believe PQ depends more on the quality of the MPEG decoder, than going to 10-bit SDI. Said another way, 10-bit SDI would not necessarily improve the picture because of the limits of MPEG decoders.

We do not support HD-SDI. I don;t think there will be a lot of sources, and it will be more difficult and possibly not possible to mod HD DVD players for HD-SDI output. Remains to be seen of course.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen

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post #193 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 03:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by CrazyIvan
...
Slightly off topic, why do projector/plasma manufactures even bother A) adding a de-interlacer/scaler (usually of dubious quality anyway) , and B) adding so many inputs forcing users to either make many and lengthy cable runs or situating the components in the most inconvenient areas in order to shorten the runs?
Why not team up with a company like Lumagen ...
Am I missing something?

CI
(I just noticed Ofer already answered this - oh well. Here's my 2 cents).

It comes down to $$$ (or insert your favorite currency).

Bad deinterlacing and scaling is cheap. Good deinterlacing and scaling is not so inexpensive. They make more money when they do it poorly, because honestly, most people don't know any better and only look at the bottom-line cost for the projector/RPTV.

The good news for all of us video processor companies, is that there are people who know better.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen

Jim Peterson
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post #194 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 06:05 AM
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Jim,

A couple of questions which I believe you could enlighten me on.

1. How does the linear stretch work? Does it allow you to determine the level and where it starts stretching a 4:3 signal? Does the scaler also allow for you to adjust the vertical and horizontal size? (I actually prefer to do my own stretch mode)

2. What does the better quality for the SDI model actually mean?

Is the product still on target for a April delivery? :-)

Thanks
Oliver
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post #195 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 07:08 AM
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What are other benefits of Genlock other than reducing judder at 60Hz? Can it improve AV sync? Thanks.

Vinod
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post #196 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 09:41 AM
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Oh no, I'm #$%^&ed.

Just found out that the projector that I have (Sanyo Z2) does not correctly "process" a 720p 50Hz signal on the DVI-D port!

That has really put my plans to buy the Vision DVI into a spin as I was planning to run only one cable (a DVI-I cable actually) and use a Vision DVI to switch all my video signals. :(

Unless: Would it at all be possible with the Vision DVI to convert/scale/transcode/whatever PAL based input signals (@ SD and HD) and output 720p 60Hz that the projector can correctly process?
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post #197 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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vinod,

I believe there's a slight reduction of A/V sync (1 frame) when genlock is in use. However, this might be specific to the Vision Pro, as I don't think it necessarily applies to other scalers.

Genlock is primarily designed to reduce judder and eliminate frame drops.

CrazyIvan,

Most displays have problems with progressive signals running at 50Hz. The Vision DVI (or higher) should work correctly for you, if you run it at 75Hz.

You'll have to be more specific about what inputs you'll be feeding it, and at what rates.

I'm not sure if Lumagen is planning to get 1080i @ 50Hz working right at the beginning (it's still a bit early, in this format's lifetime, to get that working).

Oliver,

Thanks for reminding me. I forgot about this feature.

While personally, I'm not crazy about non-linear stretch, if it's programmable enough (i.e., X amount of points of stretching and locations where they are stretched), it might work out... The jury is still out on this feature.

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
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post #198 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 10:28 AM
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Is the no HD SDI issue a hardware or software limitation? Im asking because if HD-DVD turns out to be moddable to HD-SDI then would a firmware update be a possibility?
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post #199 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 10:47 AM
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I don't quite understand the need for HD-SDI...

Is it mainly for fear that HD-DVD (or any other HD source) will use HDCP over HDMI (or DVI), and thus be incompatible with non-HDCP displays (e.g., CRT PJ)?

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post #200 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Is it mainly for fear that HD-DVD (or any other HD source) will use HDCP over HDMI (or DVI), and thus be incompatible with non-HDCP displays (e.g., CRT PJ)?
I don't think this is a fear - I think it's a guarantee.
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post #201 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 11:23 AM
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Hi Oferlaor

As you may remember from some of my previous questions on this forum and even this thread, I've got a SCART (with RGB) DVD player (90% PAL DVDs, 10% NTSC) and a Video Recorder (part time TV tuner) that will most probably be retired and replaced with a Hard Disk Recorder (also inclusive TV Tuner).
In the near future though there will be a Satellite Receiver added to the fray, and possibly a PC and/or games console (X-Box for example).

I also want provision for either HD-DVD (or Blueray, whatever) and would expect HD transmission over Satellite in Europe to be common place within 2-3 years, thus it should also be catered for.

And finally, a digicam.....can't forget that!

Basically a mixture of SD, HD, PAL, NTSC, and PC.

The goal was (is):
- all possible sources supported
- all de-interlaced to a progressive signal
- all scaled to the native resolution of the projector (i.e. 720)
- converted to the digital domain and transmitted to the projector through one cable (DVI-D)

Am I asking too much from the Vision DVI in light of my projectors 720p 50 Hz DVI-D problem?

CI
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post #202 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axatax
I don't think this is a fear - I think it's a guarantee.
I guess I do understand, then! :D

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post #203 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 12:05 PM
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CI: The Lumagen products do a great job of frame rate conversion just now. If your display will not support 720P@50Hz...and most wont, then you could try letting Lumagen do it to 60Hz. There will be other temporal artifacts added(judder), How bad they are is only judgeable by you.

Or, as Ofer says, you may find that your display can accept 75Hz refresh. SOmehting to consider and try. I'm sure that when HD-DVD or HD satellite takes off more displays will start to accept 50Hz progressive signals.

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post #204 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 12:17 PM
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Gordon is right that the conversion from 50 to 60 Hz is quite watchable
and sometimes turns out to get the best out of a setup.
However it seems that the small companies have to fix the mistakes of
the big ones, als always.
It will come down to the fact that buying a scaler is something that is best done at the local dealer, as many scaler display configuration do not work properly at least not without somebody knowledgable making the initial adjustments.
I more than often eperienced this and there is nothing better than a local
dealer that will test your setup and helps you with the adjustments.
Not all are HT nuts like most of us here.
We will beta test the Lumagen units and help to support them having all software that is necessary for proper Pal operation and compatability from the production run. If not I can confirm that I never worked with a company that released firmware upgrades for known bugs faster than Lumagen although these releases have been more like adding features than actually fixing problems, at no cost btw !

Eidophor oil projector on a fork lifter connected to an original SONY BETAMAX, stunning picture, never seen anything better
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post #205 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
I'm not sure if Lumagen is planning to get 1080i @ 50Hz working right at the beginning (it's still a bit early, in this format's lifetime, to get that working).
Just to let people know in Australia we have had 1080i @ 50Hz HDTV for about 2 years.
It's always difficult to convince display manufacturers that they need to support this resolution.
Most of them don't have test equipment to even check it will work.

Tony
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post #206 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by oliverlim
Jim,

A couple of questions which I believe you could enlighten me on.

1. How does the linear stretch work? ...
2. What does the better quality for the SDI model actually mean?
3. Is the product still on target for a April delivery? :-)

Thanks
Oliver
Oliver:
1. This is actually a (horizontal) non-linear stretch. There will be a center region of programmable width where the image is linear. Then the VisionDVI, et. al. will gradually increase the stretch to fill the 16:9 width with a 4:3 source. We plan to allow other calibrations and features to work, so you could zoom in some first to crop off some top and bottom, so there is less stretching needed.

2. Not sure of the context. SDI is better in general. The Vision HDP and VisionPro HDP SDI inputs have access to the better scaling of the second generation. The images should look more defined.

3. I actually claimed May delivery, with a hope of some Beta units (not complete software) at end of April. Haven't tripped and fell down yet, but we may still. This isn't easy stuff.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen

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post #207 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 01:50 PM
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Jim,

Does Lumagen use their own proprietary chipset for scaling? I'm just curious how it compares to something like Silicon Optix's highly regarded sxW1-LX used both in their own scaler and outsourced to third parties...? I guess I'm really looking for specs regarding quality (tap count, etc.) rather than features.

Thanks again for your incredible patience, wealth of knowledge, and the ability to convey it all to laymens like me!

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post #208 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Ivan,

As I said, it's not your specific problem, other than CRTs, most displays out there do not support 50Hz for progressive resolutions. I'm actually not sure of how many displays support 1080i @ 50Hz as it is quite uncommon (only one station in Australia works with it and one in Europe that transmits a few hours of repetative programming every day).

Regarding your sources. It looks like a fairly typical setup, pretty close to what I have today (except HD). I can tell you that everything you convert to 75Hz will work fine. Assuming the Vision Pro works with 1080i @ 50Hz (you'll have to confirm that with Jim or Patrick), converting it to 75Hz and deinterlacing to your Native resolution should produce excellent results.

The only thing that's not there is a Firewire input - so it looks like you'll have to use your Svideo output on your digicam. I currently use my DVD recorder (which has a firewire input) and hook it up through component to the scaler when we watch it as a source.

AJW,

I don't think any of the professional HD signal generators even provide 1080i @ 50Hz. I also think most manufacturers simply don't bother checking this rate because it is still quite rare. Frankly, it's confusing to me why anyone would be daft enough to switch over to this rate. Whereas 50Hz made a lot of sense in the old days (I think TVs used the AC as the clock source for the vertical sync), most displays today tune to whatever frequency you send them. So, choosing a standard display rate that is already standard makes a lot more sense than inventing a new and unsupported format (like 1080i @ 50Hz). The world should have either adopted 1080i @ 60Hz or invented something completely different (1024p @ 75Hz). Doing 1080i @ 60Hz is really looking for problems down the line when HD material starts to get exported from the US into Europe and Australia and new and wonderous telecine techniques speed up, slow down, and increase judder into our lives for no conceivable reason other than to differenciate enlarged egos from one another...

DigitalAV,

Lumagen has developed its own scaling engine from the get-go. They use this engine in their current designs and from what I understand, they have upgraded it further in the new Vision designs.

From what I've seen from the old Lumagen scaling, it is a very good engine indeed!

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
www.hometheater.co.il
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post #209 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 02:40 PM
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Jim,

Any chance of an answer to my question? I appreciate you answering the first set I had its just im considering whether I want a Lumagen + 8"CRT or HD2+ projector and this SDI stuff makes a difference.
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post #210 of 1598 Old 03-08-2004, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by chaiyos
Hi Ofer,
thanks for summing up the new features. They're big changes indeed but it's a bit discouraging when i just bought VisionProSDI recently (in fact just used it only few hours) and now its value drops to $800.

As i'm no technical guy, my next questions are;
- Is the new scaling significantly better than the old one?
- Does Genlock provide so much better result?
For DVI I/O, i'm not into it so much as i believe my Marquee 8500 would still serve me well for a big while, hence no plan for DLP or plasma in near future. Besides, my sources are mainly SD.

Thanks,
Chaiyos
I realize you asked Ofer, however, please allow me to chime in.

- I feel you are putting us in a no-win situation. Do we stop innovating? Do we not offer the trade-in?

- You may not even want to upgrade as the VisionPro already gives you a great picture (IMO).

- Is there a piece of home theater equipment that is not worth a lot less a month after you bought it, even without the intro of a next generation product?

- Have you ever bought a computer that wasn't bettered in short order?

All I mean is, you have to take the plunge sometime. Your VisionPro SDI can still give you years of good service.

----

The picture quality will be improved in the second generation, but the first generation has a great picture already, and it is available now. The improvement over the SDI input on your VisionPro will be subtle, and you may not even want to engage the extra enhancement if you are like me and like the "film look." If so, there is little need to upgrade to the new unit since you say you are primarily concerned with SD sources.

The Genlock is available on the VisionPro now. With a CRT projector this will work as good in the VisionPro as with the second generation. The only thing is the timing will be slightly different with genlock on for the VisionPro, and so you will need to tweak the setup of the CRT a little when you engage it.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
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