3 new scalers from Lumagen!! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 01:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys,

Just got this press release with 3 new scalers they are coming out with!

I marked the things I found specifically interesting in bold.

Here is the announcement:

Lumagen is introducing three new products: Vision DVI ($999), Vision HDP
($1499), and VisionPro HDP ($2299). All have two HD analog and two HD DVI-D inputs. The Vision DVI can transcode, process, and scale HD sources. The Vision HDP and VisionPro HDP can transcode, deinterlace and scale HD up to 1080p output.

Here is a more detailed feature list:

Vision DVI ($999):

- Eight inputs: 2 Composite, 2 SVideo, 2 SD/ED/HD Component, and 2 DVI-D +
HDCP
- The Component inputs can also be configured for RGBHV, RGBS, or RGsB
- Option for two SDI inputs ($400)
- Output is DVI-D + HDCP (i.e. digital only) at up to 800p
- Programmable output resolution from 480p to 800p, plus 1080i
- Analog and digital inputs are full-featured (i.e. not just pass-through)
- HD Component inputs are transcoded to RGB
- Component and DVI inputs auto-switch between SD, ED, and HD source
- Two configuration memories per input
- Each input memory has independent parameters for 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i
- User adjustable image enhancement
- Source aspect ratio selectable as 4:3, letter-box, 16:9 and 1.85
- Adjustable non-linear stretch mode
- 2:2, 3:2, 3:3 pull-down for SD film sources
- HDMI compatible with appropriate adapter cable
- Zoom in any source up to 33% in either 15% or 5% steps
- RS232 control
- NTSC, PAL and SECAM auto-detection
- Programmable output aspect ratio from 1.33 to 2.35
- Optional rack mount ears ($50)
- Studio quality TV decoder with 10-bit A/Ds
- Configuration memories can be used for day/night settings
- All setup parameters are unique for each memory
- Input-cropping, black, contrast, color and hue
- Output resolution and timing are programmable
- Y/C-delay calibration
- Multipoint grayscale calibration
- Gamma calibration
- Genlock
- CUE and ICP filtering
- Programmable input and output color-space (SD, HD)
- DVI input and output dynamic-range can be set to video or full
- Field upgradeable software
- Universal power supply

=================================================

Vision HDP has all the Vision DVI features plus:

- Output is DVI-I (analog and digital)
- Optional BNC analog output connectors ($100)
- HD deinterlacing at up to 1080p output
- Transcode analog RGB and DVI to analog HD-component
- Output resolution up to 1080p for analog and digital outputs
- Improved video processing quality verses Vision HDP
- 2:2, 3:2, 3:3 pull-down for SD and HD film sources

=================================================

VisionPro HDP has all the Vision HDP features plus:

- BNC connectors for all analog video in and out provide the ultimate
electrical and mechanical connection.
- Analog output on BNC connectors, plus DVI-D output.
- Ten inputs standard: Two Composite/SVideo (selectable), two
composite/SVideo/SD-Component (selectable), two SD/ED/HD component, two DVI + HDCP, and two SDI
- Professional grade case with machined black-anodized front-panel
- Rack-mount ears standard
- Front panel LCD display
- Front panel controls
- Cables: Two component RCA-to-BNC and two SVideo-to-BNC.


Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
www.hometheater.co.il
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post #2 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 03:55 AM
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Perfect.

Is your Pro SDI upgradable to Pro HDP?

:)

AK
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post #3 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 04:42 AM
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What are the available output frequencies, also the website seems to to indicate that these will de-interlace HD to 1080i.

Assuming this is correct, is this the next major contender to the HDL?
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post #4 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 04:50 AM
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The Pro is not upgradeable to PROHDP as far as I am aware. The huge analogue input array and bandwidth of a Pro should make it a pretty saleable item anyway so you shouldn't have an issue moving it on.

Yes, the HDP and PROHDP will de-interlace 1080i50/60 using 2:2 and 2:3 pulldown (for film sources), then downscale or output at 1080P......

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post #5 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 05:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Gordon,

Just to add to that, that these units (for some reason, the impact of this feature has not been emphasized here) will do 2:2 pullup and 3:3 pullup for SD and HD sources!

That means 48Hz, 72Hz (NTSC) and 75Hz (for PAL) will work correctly on both SD and HD sources!

These are definitely units to watch out for!

sheggsl,

From what I understand, the units will support the same type of output rates that the Vision Pro does today (i.e., you enter a number with one decimal place and it will do it for you). Obviously, the above mentioned feature will only kick in for genlocked output frequencies (i.e., 48Hz, 60Hz and 72Hz for NTSC and 50Hz and 75Hz for PAL).

Cheers,
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post #6 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 05:07 AM
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When can I buy lumagen stock?
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post #7 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 05:59 AM
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You should contact your UK dealer for pricing and availabity. The UK dealers have just received information about what is going to happen now. I expect that Monday might be earliest they will have anything implimented though.

Gordon

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post #8 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 06:01 AM
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So when are these scalers available? So does this mean that the VisionHDP can do a cross conversion of 1080i/50 to 1080i/60?
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post #9 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 06:05 AM
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Beauty! Might have to check out the ProHDP. Sounds like a winner.

I am serious...and don't call me Shirley.
Bryan Pape - Lead Acoustician
GIK Acoustics

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post #10 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 06:10 AM
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well, these certainly look intriguing, don't they?

anybody have a clue on timing of availability? is this one of those "announce in 2004 and ship some other year" things?

i sorta get the impression that the DVI outputs are video mode not computer mode (since no resolutions are listed)? anybody have a clue?

it looks like there's no distinction of HD -vs- SD component inputs like on the HDL - that's certainly helpful.

i'm surprised they're releasing a box at this late date (relatively speaking) without HDMI. the number of HDMI-equipped devices looks to be taking off big time. obviously it's convertible to DVI, but i'd think it'd be a good thing just from a marketing perspective.

there seems to be no computational (internal) delta between the HDP and ProHDP. i guess they feel there's some key price point at 1,499 or something?

i wonder if it'll be sassy enough to fix the non-square pioneer plasma pixel problem (aka "PPPP").

the pricing certainly is impressive. uh, so what's the BAD news???

doody.

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post #11 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by PAGZ
So when are these scalers available? So does this mean that the VisionHDP can do a cross conversion of 1080i/50 to 1080i/60?
The Vision HDP and VisionPro HDP will extract the frames from film at either 24 fps (NTSC) or 25 fps (PAL) - assuming there are frames there to extract, of course.

For NTSC sources the output rate should be set to 48/1.001, 60/1.001, or 72/1.001 hertz to reduce judder. For PAL these low-judder frequencies will be 50, 62.5 and 75 Hertz.

You c ould set 1080i/50 to output at 60 hertz, but there will be increased judder.

Jim Peterson
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post #12 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
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doody,

I did receive timing information along with the press release, but didn't want to release it before verifying first. The schedule looks like April/May (i.e., some units might ship as early as April).

regarding the first two units. Their differences are not immediately noticeable. The HDP adds BNC connections to the mix, as well as resolutions ranging up to 1080p (whereas the DVI unit only supports up to 800p).

i.e., someone who needs > 800p or BNC connectors needs the HDP unit.

Regarding resolution. Vision Pro+SDI provides quite a few "standardized" resolutions, but you could alter the resolution to anything you wanted (you specified the number of lines, and H/V frequencies). I wouldn't expect this to be much different.

regarding HDMI. I would have to say I completely disagree with you on that point. Almost everything uses DVI now. Putting an HDMI connector would require pretty much everyone to buy an expensive connector. Once HDMI really kicks in, they can easily switch the connector or send units out with an HDMI converter.

Technically speaking, DVI+HDCP and HDMI are the same regarding video (with 480i being the exception - if you double clock).

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
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post #13 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 08:11 AM
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Also should point out that the DVI inputs and outputs can be configured on a per memory bank basis for video or pc level signals.

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post #14 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by doody
well, these certainly look intriguing, don't they?

anybody have a clue on timing of availability? ...

Doody:

We are planning to ship in May and will be showing prototypes at the EH Expo in Orlando starting March 11 (booth 550 if you can make it). We still do have a lot of work to do between now and May, but we believe we can hit that date or I would not have been so specific. Of course you are right to question schedules since any design can run into unexpected road blocks and be delayed.

DVI in and out can be either video levels (16 to 239 for black to white) or computer (0 to 255) levels as was listed in the press release. Note, video levels can still be in the range of 0 to 255, for blacker-than-black and whiter-than-white, but normally are in the 16 to 239 range.

DVI is compatable with HDMI. DVI is actually a subset of HDMI (same video, no audio). The electrical signals are the same and we will be selling DVI to HDMI adaptors/cables. So, unless the HDMI manufacture does something stupid, they will work together.

Considering the pricing (sorry this is the long answer): We wanted a $999 piece to match the Vision which remains our entry-level analog output piece, thus the $999 point on the VisionDVI. The VisionPro with SDI is $2295, thus the VisionPro HDP at $2299. The VisionHDP with the Vision DVI case/connectors and VisionPro HDP electronics had to be in the middle somewhere. A VisionHDP ($1499) + plus SDI option ($400), plus BNC output ($100), plus rack ears ($50), would be a the correct unit to compare and totals $2049. The VisionPro HDP is $2299 with all this, BNC inputs/output (a noticable improvement over standard connectors with a good projector), much nicer case, front panel display/controls, and some nice cables. The $250 difference for closest comparable seemed reasonable and doing the math we came out at $1499 base on the Vision HDP. We then tuned our designs to keep our margins reasonable at these price points.

I'm not sure what the Pioneer issue is exactly, but we have very precise output aspect control of 1.33 to 2.35, so we could compensate for non-square pixels on a display. For the DVI digital output you will be able to program a pixel perfect setting vertically and horizontally up to the maximum resolution, so we should be able to correct for any strangeness in the display's resolution/aspect-ratio.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen

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post #15 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
sorry this is the long answer
jim - if you EVER apologize again for a detailed answer to a question posted here, we will hunt you down and beat you with a wet noodle.

your responses are wildly helpful and useful. thank you for making the effort to lay it all out. as you know, we're definitely a group of "the more the better" types here :).

not all the video processor manufacturers have been as thoughtful in this regard.

thank you.

the 16:9 plasmas with 1280x768 resolution have pixels roughly 6% wider than they are tall. if you feed these guys at NR ("DOT BY DOT" mode) you can slap up a circle and measure the elongation. that's the "PPPP".

this stuff looks stellar, jim. we'll be keeping our fingers crossed.

please keep up the good work re: posting here and don't let a few vocal noise-makers get you down. no product is perfect, and some folks will beat you up over it.

doody.

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post #16 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 10:02 AM
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So let me see if I get this right...

The 48Hz uses cadence detection and lock and works for all standard input resolutions (480i/480p/720p/1080i) with any output resolution, including 1440x960 and 1080p?

We get proper 1080i De-Interlacing like the F5000 and HDL do and in addition to that 48Hz?


Will we get the full resolution of 1920x1080 on 1080i or will it be cropped to less than 1500x1080 like other scalers do?


Sounds too good to be true... and if it really works, I'll pre-order as soon as I can. :)

- Stephan
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post #17 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 10:17 AM
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As a very happy owner of a Vision who has been chomping at the bit to upgrade, this is EXTREMELY exciting!! Delivery just in time for my Birthday :)

I have to ask....any trade in possibility for current customers??

Also, are the rack mount ears on the Vision Pro HDP removable?

Phil
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post #18 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 10:39 AM
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Stephan:

The following applies to the Vision HDP and the VisionPro HDP:

We will genlock on to the 24 fps (25 for PAL) for film sources for any input mode, including progressive ones that already have reconstructed the frames and are outputing at 59.94 (50 for PAL), up to the maximum input resolution (1080i and up to about 768p). The output can be genlocked at the normal mulitples (2, 2.5, and 3) of the film source rate up to the maximum resolution.

1080i input is processed and output at the full 1920 by 1080p resolution.

We haven't gotten all the software for this done yet, but the hardware is working and capable of this.

------

The VisionDVI processing is at a maximum of (about) 1400 by 800 and it does not do pull-down reconstruction for HD sources. So, for HD sources, its output should be set at 59.94 or 50 depending on the source.

------

Jim Peterson
Lumagen

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post #19 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Free
As a very happy owner of a Vision who has been chomping at the bit to upgrade, this is EXTREMELY exciting!! Delivery just in time for my Birthday :)

I have to ask....any trade in possibility for current customers??

Also, are the rack mount ears on the Vision Pro HDP removable?
Free:

Thanks for the complement.

------

We do have a trade in policy (which I am generating as I type this :)

For U.S. customers, trade-in value will depend on what you upgrade to. Since we work through custom installers and dealers for most sales, we need to have a program that keeps our dealers in the loop for trade ins. If you bought through a dealer you will need to work through that dealer for the trade in to apply (unless they don't want to deal with our trade-in policy).

Internationally, we need to work with our independent distributors on a country by country basis, but I believe most will honor this program. It is up to them, and since this is being generated on-the-fly, I haven't had a chance to ask them yet. Trade-in may be a little less due to higher shipping costs, or they may chose not to deal with it at all.

For the U.S. :

Vision trade-in value when applied to:
VisionDVI: $300
VisionHDP: $400
VisionPro HDP: $500

VisionPro or VisionProSDI trade-in when applied to:
VisionDVI: $300
VisionHDP: $500
VisionPro HDP: $800 (This is actually a board swap upgrade. You keep your current faceplate and it will still say VisionPro. If you want the new faceplate, upgrade value of the VisionPro will be $600)

----

The rack mount ears come un-attached and must be installed by the user.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen

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post #20 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 11:38 AM
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Well,

This looks *very* promising! 48Hz *and* true 1080p, greyscale manipulation, gamma correction, programmable output scan rates etc, etc!

Time to dust off the test equipment! :D

Gordon, I need one!

Mark.

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My kit: 15' 2.35:1 Screen Research CP2 4-way mask, Sony vw1000es, Lumagen 2144, Meridian 861/621/7x5500/2xSW5500

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post #21 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 11:39 AM
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Jim,

thanks for your quick reply.

Sounds like you have some awesome units there. :)


My original plan was to use a iScan HD for dvds outputting at 1440x960@48Hz and in addition to that get a HDL for 1080i to 1080p @60Hz.
But why get two units if one can do the same and even does it better...?

I think the VisionPro HDP would be what suits me best. Hope you guys can finish the software for a may-release. :)

- Stephan
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post #22 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Stephan,

Will you be using it for 1080i @ 50Hz?

Cheers,
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post #23 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 12:18 PM
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Can these processors crossconvert 1080i to 720p & can they digitize HD signal so I can just use DVI cable to the projector? Do they use bob & weave to scale1080i to 1080p? Thanks.

Vinod
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post #24 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 12:21 PM
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Vinod they can do all those things. I am unsure if we can tell you just how they will do 1080i video source de-interlacing. I'll leave that for Jim or Pat.

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post #25 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 12:23 PM
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Ofer,

as soon as it becomes available, yes.

The HD-sources in europe are very limited, we only have one regular channel via satellite which only shows some concerts and demo clips. The last time I checked it was broadcasting 1920x1088@25fps.
No idea where the 8 additional lines come from.

The rest we get are some channels from the US which are switched to some european transponders from time to time. These channels use a refresh rate of 60Hz.

The last big thing we got was the Superbowl in 1080i, but also at 60Hz.


There have been rumours that we will see more sport events in europe which will be 1080i@50Hz, but nothing has been confirmed yet.

I doubt we'll see movie broadcasts over here anytime soon. So, the only other source for us europeans would be D-VHS from the US.

But as soon as we can get 1080i@50Hz, I'd be happy to try it.

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post #26 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 12:27 PM
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Mark,

I thought you might :)

I'll mail you....

Gordon

P.S. To all UK readers the trade in is news to me. I will look in to feasability but it looks like private re-sale is going to be much more cost effective for foreign markets.

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post #27 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Fraser
Vinod they can do all those things. I am unsure if we can tell you just how they will do 1080i video source de-interlacing. I'll leave that for Jim or Pat.

Gordon
The following applies to the Vision HDP and VisionPro HDP:

Initially we will be doing pulldown reconstruction for 1080i sources. However, we will begin working on per-pixel deinterlacing after we release to production.

Just as we did with our first generation, we plan to significantly improve picture quality over time and post the updates on our website. HD per-pixel is just one area. We are also looking to do per-pixel for SD and turn off the SiI504. We have found a number of cases we think we can improve verses the SiI504. In addition, we will be fine-tuning the scaling algorithms over time.

We have about 3X the memory bandwidth and 5X the system gates available verses our first generation, and so believe we will have plenty of headroom to improve quality throughout the product life of these units.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen

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post #28 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
We have about 3X the memory bandwidth and 5X the system gates available verses our first generation, and so believe we will have plenty of headroom to improve quality throughout the product life of these units.
you heard it here first, folks! THE LAST SCALER YOU WILL EVER HAVE TO BUY!

:)

just kidding, jim. :)

doody!

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post #29 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 01:31 PM
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Great! Now all I need is a dvd player with HDMI from one of the established manufacturers & feed 480i from dvd player through HDMI output to DVI input on the Lumagen unit & let it do the deinterlacing & scaling. Now only if we can skip March & directly go to April when most of these players will be available!

Vinod
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post #30 of 1598 Old 02-29-2004, 02:18 PM
jrp
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Quote:
Originally posted by vinodk
Great! Now all I need is a dvd player with HDMI from one of the established manufacturers & feed 480i from dvd player through HDMI output to DVI input on the Lumagen unit & let it do the deinterlacing & scaling. Now only if we can skip March & directly go to April when most of these players will be available!
Let me first add a bit of caution to the mix. We are hoping to ship a limited number of units in April. These will be production hardware, but not software. So, call these Beta units. One thing that will most likely not be in the software in April is HDCP. Customers will need to sign an NDA that lasts until we release production, and put up with foibles in the software. Since we need feedback from these customers, we are going to limit quantities, and most of these will probably go to ISF installers who care to help us out testing our units.

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Allow me to also say that SDI will still be a better way to go for SD DVDs - at a cost of course. HDMI can fix the quality issues with DVI using its 4:2:2 YCbCr interlaced format (which we plan to support), but there is still that nasty encryption which pretty much shoots all of us CRT projector owners in the head.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen

Jim Peterson
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