Silicon Optix Announces the Realta Chip -- Bringing Teranex's $60k HQV to the Home - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 425 Old 11-05-2004, 09:58 AM
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Would make a nice addition to a receiver, as well. Same old story, it's a shame to have its power restricted to just DVD's.

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post #182 of 425 Old 11-07-2004, 03:51 PM
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Interesting thread going here!!

HQV,

I'm a curious engineer, so I'd sure like to run a lunatic fringe PQ experiment to see what HQV technology could do for my collection of (...are you ready for this) VHS movies. I'm sure some would like the same experiment done on LD's.

I've seen a Teranex processor at work on a 20-30 foot screen making SD DVD into 1080p. It was incredible to say the very least. Now...for my VHS to see if the Teranex could be made to go up in smoke. ;)

Great technology coming up here ........ finally PQ done right for the masses.

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post #183 of 425 Old 11-13-2004, 11:35 PM
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pnichols,

Indeed, one of my favorite demos is watching a DVD on the 30 foot screen. Unfortunately we don't have such giant screens here, but as we are in San Jose, and you in Los Gatos, you're welcome to come try your "lunatic fringe PQ experiment" for yourself. Demo room is in the works and it should be done by the end of the month.

I have yet to watch VHS through HQV (i.e. Teranex, Realta, etc) but it's interesting to note that algorithms to ammeliorate VHS-specific artifacts could be easily dowloaded to the chip.... pretty cool, huh?

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post #184 of 425 Old 11-14-2004, 06:32 AM
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HQV:

Regarding the "easily downloaded to the chip" algorithms what Teranex should consider in their stand alone box is the ability to customize each unit with the purchasers requirement from a menu of items and fees, some may want the VHS specefic algorithms while others would request different alogorithms from a Teranex algorithms menu and pay a fee according to which ones and how many-


That my friend would be way cool.

Lon

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post #185 of 425 Old 11-16-2004, 04:37 PM
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Lon: yes. I am all for the "algorithm a la carte" approach. Teranex has done this with their professional units and I hope that many OEMs will follow their lead...

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post #186 of 425 Old 11-16-2004, 11:45 PM
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"......and I hope that many OEMs will follow their lead..."

Well, it looks like Denon is starting off on the wrong track right out of the chute in the 5910 if they're using the scaling engine out of the DVDO processor, but the Realta chip only for base deinterlacing and image enhancements.

Why isn't Denon using the Realta chip's supposedly superlative Teranex-type programmable scaling built into the new chip?

Phil
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post #187 of 425 Old 11-17-2004, 03:33 AM
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License restrictions as to the use of existing non Silicon Optix software being used by Denon, time needed to bring to market, and oh yeah money.
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post #188 of 425 Old 11-17-2004, 03:50 AM
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Sure changes the dynamics of whether to go with the Denon 5910 or SDI modify my 5900 and use an outboard processor (DVDO or Dragonfly).
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post #189 of 425 Old 11-17-2004, 05:10 AM
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I would modify your DVD player to give it an SDI output and use the Lumagen if it later incorporates the Realta chip. Remember Lumagen only uses the Silicon Images chip for 480i deinterlacing. It is relatively easy to beat that chip's scaling abilities if a manufacturer is prepared to write its own software. Quick to market like the Denon, use the software in the Silicon Images chip. It is the best off the shelf scaling solution.
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post #190 of 425 Old 11-17-2004, 10:24 AM
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I'm not quite following why Denon is supposedly starting out on the wrong tack, based on the decision to use DVDO's scaling technology. The scaling technology in the REALTA chip comes from Silicon Optix, rather than Terenex, does it not? Here is the quote from the press release at the beginning of this thread: "The Realta chip combines Teranex’s trillion operation per second broadcast quality video processing with Silicon Optix’s proprietary geometric scaling technology." While SO's scaling technology is great, I would not asume that it is better than DVDO's.

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post #191 of 425 Old 11-17-2004, 10:45 AM
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Steve. Some of the company names are close. Silicon Images who now owns the DVDO chip and Silicon Optix who owns the Realta chip.
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post #192 of 425 Old 11-17-2004, 12:21 PM
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IIRC DVDO also uses the Silicon Imaging Sil504 chip for deinterlacing only , and have designed their own proprietary scaling technology - 'Precision Video Scaling'. I'm not sure the scaling is using a Silicon Imaging chip.
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post #193 of 425 Old 11-17-2004, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mark haflich
Steve. Some of the company names are close. Silicon Images who now owns the DVDO chip and Silicon Optix who owns the Realta chip.
Okay, but what we have here is Silicon Optix supplying the REALTA chip, which will perform Terenex-style deinterlacing and perhaps other chores, and DVDO supplying their proprietary scaling technology. The REALTA chip usually employs the scaling engine developed by Silicon Optix, which is already available in other Silicon Optix chips. It is unclear whether the DVDO code will supplant or work with Silicon Optix's scaling technology in the REALTA chip, or will require a separate processor.

It is somewhat odd that the REALTA chip standing alone wasn't enough for Denon, since the scaling performed by Silicon Optix chips is quite good, but I wouldn't discount the possibility that the DVDO scaling technology is as good or better.

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post #194 of 425 Old 11-18-2004, 05:37 AM
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From the "Denon chooses DVDO" thread:

QUOTE]Originally posted by Dale Adams
You're not being dense at all. This has not been clearly explained.

The Realta, as I understand it (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong), is in fact capable of doing everything. Denon chose not to use it for everything, however, and selected a different solution for scaling. That solution resides in a separate chip which will take the deinterlaced output of the Realta chip and scale it to the desired output resolution. The Realta is performing the deinterlacing (and is likely doing additional processing (e.g., detail enhancement) as well, but not scaling), and the additional chip is performing the scaling.

- Dale Adams
[/quote]

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post #195 of 425 Old 11-18-2004, 06:09 AM
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It seems from Dale Adams I was wrong. The scaling being used in the Denon is DVDO on a multigated chip or something like that and is not on an SI chip.
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post #196 of 425 Old 11-18-2004, 09:36 AM
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Well, the history between Anchor Bay (and DVDO) and Silicon Image can be confusing. DVDO is no longer a part of Silicon image. While DVDO engineers devised the SIL504 deinterlacing chip, Silicon Image retains ownership of that chip, and may retain ownership of the alorithms used in it for deinterlacing. I suspect that DVDO will use that chip in its products until it comes up with new deinterlacing algorithms. In the meantime, DVDO boxes perform scaling (as opposed to deinterlacing) using a Field Programable Gate Array chip running their algorithms.

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post #197 of 425 Old 11-19-2004, 10:04 AM
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HQV-

Any hints on what will be announced before/at CES. A few more OEM announcements maybe???
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post #198 of 425 Old 11-20-2004, 12:55 PM
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Someone please tell me I'll be able to get a Realta-based card for my Pioneer plasma's internal slot. Both the 3rd and 4th generation Pio plasmas have this slot, although the 4th gen's is larger.

Hey, I can dream can't I.:D
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post #199 of 425 Old 11-20-2004, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
I'm not quite following why Denon is supposedly starting out on the wrong tack, based on the decision to use DVDO's scaling technology. The scaling technology in the REALTA chip comes from Silicon Optix, rather than Terenex, does it not? Here is the quote from the press release at the beginning of this thread: "The Realta chip combines Teranex’s trillion operation per second broadcast quality video processing with Silicon Optix’s proprietary geometric scaling technology." While SO's scaling technology is great, I would not asume that it is better than DVDO's.
Silicon Optix scaling is hard to beat, in fact I've never seen it bettered. It has roots in the higher-end Genesis technology, but is signicantly better due to 4 years of joint development by the Silicon Optix-Teranex partnership.

DVDO scaling, while I haven't seen much of it, is most likely very good. I have a hard time imagining that the Denon 5910 will not output gorgeous PQ.

Quote:
Any hints on what will be announced before/at CES. A few more OEM announcements maybe???
Maybe. ;)
But you can be sure that there'll be various demos. Contact me right before CES begins and I'll let you know which booths will be showcasing HQV.

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post #200 of 425 Old 11-21-2004, 05:50 AM
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Why don't you just post it in this thread right before CES starts? Remember, many of us in the industry leave for CES several days before the show officially starts so please post at least by Monday of show week. Thanks
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post #201 of 425 Old 11-21-2004, 09:09 AM
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I have never seen DVDO scaling so I really can't comment, but it sounds like a very high quality scaler. However, it is important to remember that the Realta HQV was scaling to native display resolutions (JVC QX1, DPI 35HD, DLP, LCD, etc.) at the CEDIA show. All of the 'WOW!' reviews and awards we received were based solely on the Realta HQV and nothing else.

The quality of Teranex scaling (which is an integral part of the HQV process) is simply unmatched by any competitor IMHO. I base this on many years of doing demos and presentations in the broadcast and high-end post industry, face to face with some EXTREMELY critical professionals. We continually make 'tweaks' to improve the image quality - scaling, NR, MPEG AR, color space, film restoration - you can't sit still for a second in this market.

The Teranex array processing architecture is very unique because it allows our team of programmers near real-time results when experimenting with new algos. Once testing is complete, we simply burn and mail CDROMS or allow customers to download off the FTP site - done deal. We have had situations where we implemented a requested feature for a customer in Orlando and 6 hours later he was running it in an edit session in LA.

Didn't mean to get off track here - I'm just very proud of the HQV scaling and it's pedigree.
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post #202 of 425 Old 11-21-2004, 10:49 AM
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I really do not want to sound like a HQV shill but I also question why Denon wouldn't just use the Realta chip and programming for everything. Why did it go to another chip and DVDO IP for the scalling? The DVDO guy will say because Denon thought it was better. But I have a suspicion something else is going on. Nothing more, just a suspicion.
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post #203 of 425 Old 11-21-2004, 11:01 AM
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Mark-

My guess is timing. The Realta chip announcement/release and the Denon anouncement were amazingly close together (particularly for a Japanese OEM, even assuming that Denon was testing/reviewing prior to their announcement). This is based on the assumption that Silicon Optix announced the chip as soon as it was ready or even slightly before (which would fit the pattern of a private chip company releasing its "first" product).

Again, just my guess. I am also guessing 3-5 new OEM announcements at CES. We shall see.
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post #204 of 425 Old 11-21-2004, 01:05 PM
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Am I the only one feeling frustrated at how complicated this whole "affordable Teranex technology" thing is turning out?

Algolith signs up... But plans to release a box that will only do de-interlacing and scaling. Hints at having plans for releasing additional boxes (at over $3k a pop, if history is any indication) for additional functions.

Denon signs up... Disregards the thing most of us would seem to be lusting after: Teranex-level scaling. For years we've been fed the "Teranex's algos take standard DVD and make it look like HD" mantra and now it turns out Denon won't be giving it to us.

Is anyone, anywhere coming out with a solution that actually takes advantage of all the Teranex/HQV goodies?? I'd rather pay a premium on an all-inclusive box (or PC board ;)) that allows me to do everything than to always be lacking something no matter whose solution I buy.
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post #205 of 425 Old 11-21-2004, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mark haflich
I really do not want to sound like a HQV shill but I also question why Denon wouldn't just use the Realta chip and programming for everything. Why did it go to another chip and DVDO IP for the scalling? The DVDO guy will say because Denon thought it was better. But I have a suspicion something else is going on. Nothing more, just a suspicion.
Mark, I agree that DVDO will try to spin this just as you've suggested. They already are in the 5910 thread going on now.

Maybe they have a contract with the DVDO guys to use their chips for a certain amount of time or for a certain quantity. Or maybe the full scale use of the Realta wasn't going to be ready in time for a January product shipment.

This is all speculation, but I have a suspicion as well.

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post #206 of 425 Old 11-21-2004, 03:56 PM
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Hey. I am not accusing the DVDO guys of anything. They are good people, make fine products, and continue to improve their algorithms. Moreover, I suspect the deinterlacing thing is the hardest thing to do well, not the scaling. Improvement of 480i video deinterlacing is what is needed. Film deinterlacing is generally OK. Deinterlacing of 1080i video too needs substantial improvement. The Terranexes are the champs here.
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post #207 of 425 Old 11-22-2004, 01:39 AM
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So I have a question: Does this mean that a DVD image coming from the Denon outputting RGBHV, will totally destroy the image I now have using SDI to the HDLeeza outputting RGBHV?

I find that hard to believe since the HDLeeza does such a great job and is versatile to boot.

But if it does I'll jump on board!

Joey
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post #208 of 425 Old 11-22-2004, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jorus
Am I the only one feeling frustrated at how complicated this whole "affordable Teranex technology" thing is turning out?

Algolith signs up... But plans to release a box that will only do de-interlacing and scaling. Hints at having plans for releasing additional boxes (at over $3k a pop, if history is any indication) for additional functions.

Denon signs up... Disregards the thing most of us would seem to be lusting after: Teranex-level scaling. For years we've been fed the "Teranex's algos take standard DVD and make it look like HD" mantra and now it turns out Denon won't be giving it to us.

Is anyone, anywhere coming out with a solution that actually takes advantage of all the Teranex/HQV goodies?? I'd rather pay a premium on an all-inclusive box (or PC board ;)) that allows me to do everything than to always be lacking something no matter whose solution I buy.


If you ask me, we're not going to know how any of these solutions compare for at least 6 months, if not longer. Then the reviewers are going to be comparing these solutions to Blue Ray and HD DVD. Who you think is going to win that battle?:rolleyes:
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post #209 of 425 Old 11-22-2004, 08:56 AM
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The only logical reason why Denon would go with a 2-chip design is because someone could not make the Realta scaling work.

Just my $0.02, of course.
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post #210 of 425 Old 11-22-2004, 10:27 AM
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Axatax,

Take your pennies back... This is a top notch product, and Denon will likely get huge amounts of support from both DVDO and SO. Both Terranex and DVDO have very long and outstanding performance records.

I can think of a hundred different reasons, from being able to offer different features on the DVDO algorithms, to PQ preferences in the Denon team, reserving the Realta's processing power for additional algorithms, etc.

The bottom line is that we'll never know unless Denon tells us, which is very doubtful. We can only guess, and guess quite badly.

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
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