New DVDO iScan HD+ - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 1446 Old 09-24-2004, 07:41 AM
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Dale
But, the HD+ will only downconvert HD signal to VGA signal through the DVI input and output of the HD+, correct?
OR, will it downconvert an HD signal to VGA signal through the DVI input and VGA output of the HD+? I don't think so ...... too bad for me.

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post #92 of 1446 Old 09-24-2004, 07:50 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Dale Adams
The iScan HD+ can do this as long as the HD input signal to it is DVI, not analog. You have full picture controls as well as the ability to scale to any output format.

I'll let others comment on the subjective comparisons between the iScan's processing and that found in the various displays out there. I don't really do the marketing thing.

- Dale Adams

Hi Dale:
Can you comment on what the Iscan does to make a 1080i signal into a 768p signal for a plasma and what algorithms might be better and worse (in a general way) for this process?

Or not.

Mark
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post #93 of 1446 Old 09-24-2004, 08:21 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by johnbm
But, the HD+ will only downconvert HD signal to VGA signal through the DVI input and output of the HD+, correct?
OR, will it downconvert an HD signal to VGA signal through the DVI input and VGA output of the HD+?

If a DVI input signal has HDCP protection, then that signal (or a processed version of it) can only be sent out of the iScan's DVI output port, also with HDCP protection. The HDCP license mandates this behavior.

However, if a DVI input signal is not HDCP-encrypted, then the iScan HD+ will produce either an analog or digital (i.e., DVI) output. This applies to all output resolutions and formats. If an HD-resolution DVI input signal is not HDCP-encrypted, then the iScan HD+ can downconvert it to analog VGA.

- Dale Adams
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post #94 of 1446 Old 09-24-2004, 08:33 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by HooStat
Can you comment on what the Iscan does to make a 1080i signal into a 768p signal for a plasma and what algorithms might be better and worse (in a general way) for this process?

Each field of the 1080i input, which is treated as a 1920x540 resolution signal, is scaled to produce an output frame at a resolution of 1366x768 (or some other resolution that you might choose). Since adjacent 1080i fields have a vertical offset relative to each other, the scaling process introduces a compensatory phase shift which causes the scaled output from both even or odd fields to be spatially coincident. In other words, the scaler introduces a 1/2 line offset when it starts the scaling process to compensate for the offset between the even and odd interlaced fields. This deinterlacing technique is normally referred to as 'bob', since the scaling operation bobs up and down with alternating even/odd fields.

There are pros and cons to this method. On the plus side, it's fairly simple to implement (especially if you already have a scaler in your system) and it never produces interlace motion artifacts (combing) in the output. On the minus side, it throws away the vertical resolution which can be gained by combining the even and odd numbered lines from adjacent fields, either through a motion-adaptive deinterlacing process or when fields are merged in an inverse 3:2 or 2:2 pulldown process. The 'bob' method does not normally provide the highest quality output. Better quality (but more complex and expensive) methods use motion-adaptive and/or source-adaptive deinterlacing to produce a deinterlaced 1080p frame, and then scale that frame to the desired output resolution.

- Dale Adams
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post #95 of 1446 Old 09-27-2004, 08:44 AM
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Hello All:

I have been an AVS surfer for a few weeks now, and decided to take the plunge over the weekend and sign up. Anyway, I am a long-time videophile and film buff and have previous experience with LCD projection (bought the sharpvision HV-30U back in 1992) along with the Lexicon CP-1 surround sound processor. Those are long since gone.

Here is my question to those more learned and seasoned pros of A/V speak who own HT systems: I am going to buy either the Panasonic AE 700 LCD pj or the Sony HS-51 LCD pj in the coming weeks, along with a 133" Draper Luma matte white screen (cheap for the size), but my biggest investment is deciding whether or not to buy the iScan HD+.

I have about 1,500 laserdiscs and 600 DVD's, and as most of you know, laserdiscs, while letterboxed, are NOT-ANAMORPHIC. I want to get the best resolution out of my cinemascope and 1.85 laserdiscs that I can, and being that my LD/DVD combo player is only capable of spitting out an S-Video signal, I need to not only up-convert from Y/C to Component/DVI but also to input non-anamorphic laserdiscs and hope to get a much better quasi-anamorphic result from the iScan device.

Do you all think it is worth the investment, and will it make a significant difference in the viewing of my old letterboxed laserdiscs?

Any help would be appreciated!

Tony
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post #96 of 1446 Old 09-27-2004, 09:44 AM
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Wittsdream, the iScan-HD will help with laserdiscs in some respects, however LD picture quality is highly dependent on 1) the quality of the LD player, and 2) the quality of the disc pressing. If you're watching a noisy, badly-transferred laserdisc, there's nothing going to help you.

See my site in the link below. I've recently put up an article on how to get the most from laserdisc on a digital display.

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My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily reflect those of my employers.

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post #97 of 1446 Old 09-27-2004, 09:54 AM
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I own a Samsung HLN617W (Generation2 DLP rear projection) TV and Series 1 Tivo unit. I would like to place the HD+ between my Tivo and the TV to cleanup/upconvert the content. I believe the Tivo outputs at 420i. Can anyone tell me if the HD+ will make a noticeable difference in picture quality in the scenario? My TV already has Faroudja DCDi de-interlacing with 3-2 pulldown processing built in, so I am unsure how much better the HD+ will up convert the Tivo content.
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post #98 of 1446 Old 09-28-2004, 03:44 AM
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I have a 50" Sammy DLP (HLN upgraded from HLM) and have used both the CS-2 deinterlacer/scaler (similar to an Iscan HD/HD+) and and Iscan Ultra (deinterlacer only).

Both of these units make a huge improvement over the builtin processing of the Sammy. This is using the analog component outs of my DVD player and the digital (DVI) outputs of the scaler/deinterlacer.

Either the analog ins on the Sammy are handled poorly or their implementation of the DCDi is poor, since even the deinterlacer only is a huge improvement.

You'd be very happy with the results IMO.
If your sources are already digital/DVI then you may not see much/any improvement.

Ken
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post #99 of 1446 Old 09-28-2004, 07:59 AM
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Hi Dale,

I think in the 'Iscan HD' thread you wrote, the 2:2 pulldown of PAL sources is not as robust and stable as the 3:2 pulldown of NTSC sources because of the limited abilities of the Si504 chipset.

What are the consequences regarding picture quality when using PAL film or non-film (video camera) sources?

I am living in a PAL country (Germany). I have tested some FLI2200 scaler products and the picture quality was great, even with PAL sources (film and video). The Vigatec DUNE-F is nearly perfect but very expensive. The HOLO3D HTPC solution is great but very complex to configure. A Faroudja NRS is great but expensive and inflexible.

The Iscan HD+ would be a very attractive deinterlacer/scaler solution, if the picture quality with PAL would be similar to the FLI2xxx chipset products.

I don't know if this is possible, but please could you describe the limitations of the Iscan HD(+) with PAL sources in detail. Thanks in advance.

Regards
Bernhard

Best regards
Bernhard
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post #100 of 1446 Old 09-28-2004, 08:23 AM
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Bernhard,

First, you have to remember that 2:2 pulldown is 100x more difficult than 3:2 pulldown. With 3:2 pulldown, you get two duplicate fields in a sequence of every 5 fields. That means that after a maximum of 5 fields you know EXACTLY where you are in the cadence. With 2:2 pulldown, there is never a repeat frame to help you find your location in the cadence. 2:2 pulldown is half luck, half hard work...

Regarding your findings with the Faroudja chips. I think it's debatable. In my system, the iScan HD performs as well or better on PAL as any other Faroudja based solution I've seen so far.

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
www.hometheater.co.il
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post #101 of 1446 Old 09-28-2004, 09:09 AM
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Ofer,

now I understand - great explanation of the 2:2 problem - thanks a lot!
Also for your PAL impressions compared to the Faroudja based products.

Dale,

The iScan HD+ is still not available, so I will have to test an iScan HD with SDI option in my system (I've called my retailer already

Can I transfer any test results directly from the iScan HD to the HD+?
(Because of the similarity between the iScan HD and HD+)

So if the iScan HD preforms very well in my system the HD+ will do it the same way?

Regards
Bernhard

P.S.: My first posts within 2 years membership. Sorry, it was absolute enough to search and read first. Now, I think I have something important to ask.

Best regards
Bernhard
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post #102 of 1446 Old 09-28-2004, 12:10 PM
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Dale
Has there been any change in pixel clock frequency? If my memory serves me correctly the HD PCF = 150MHz.

Tony
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post #103 of 1446 Old 09-28-2004, 11:27 PM
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If you want to compare the scaling of HD signals between the Iscan and the circuitry in the display, can you set the DVI input to "pass through"? In other words, can you make the HD+ act like the HD?
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post #104 of 1446 Old 09-29-2004, 02:55 AM
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Would it be possible to implement a selectable "pass through" for DVI and YUV/RGBS inputs (per input)? So every DVI, YUV and even interlaced SD YUV-signals could be passed through the iScan HD(+) without processing on demand?

Regards
Bernhard

Best regards
Bernhard
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post #105 of 1446 Old 10-04-2004, 02:21 AM
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Hey all (and Dale :P),
Pretty new to all this but have been following the original HD/HD+ threads. Just wanted to clarify somethin that probably has been covered but I dont quite understand. The HD/HD+ will not output a HD signal from the component inputs (say from a xbox game at 780p/1080i) through the DVI output but it will through the VGA/component output right? I'm just concerned on how i'm going to chain my xbox if i get a iScan. Maybe I read something wrong in one of the replies but just wanted to make sure. Thanks
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post #106 of 1446 Old 10-04-2004, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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DVDO is pleased to announce that owners of the iScan HD, may upgrade
their unit(s) to iScan HD+ functionality via a board-level upgrade. This upgrade will be available at a charge of $399, beginning November 29, 2004.

Upgrades will be performed in the USA, by the DVDO Authorized Service Depots listed below:

HomeTheatrix
Framingham, MA 01701
(877) 243-7593 (Toll Free)

JVB Digital
Dearborn, MI 48124
(313) 336-6259

For International customers, please contact your Authorized DVDO distributor in your region. International Distributors or:

JVB Digital
Maten 51
3831 PJ Leusden
The Netherlands

Phone: +31-33-4655366
Fax: +31-33-4655466

Mail address:
JVB Digital
P.O.Box 124
3830 AC Leusden
The Netherlands

To take advantage of this option, please call your preferred service provider directly. Reservations and pre-orders are accepted, and work will be performed on a first come, first served basis. The providers listed above are the only authorized service depots which can perform these upgrades, and all questions regarding procedures, shipping, and timing should be directed at the time of order.

Be advised that your unit will need to be shipped to the service depot for the upgrade and will be unavailable to you during the time of the upgrade. Users who do not wish to be without their iScan HD may take advantage of the DVDO trade-in program listed at www.dvdo.com/trade-in, which provides for the purchase and delivery of the HD+ before requiring the return of your existing iScan HD unit. To pursue this option, go to: http://www.dvdo.com/faq/faq_upg.html

We regret that this technology is not available by a simple software update or user performed board swap, but hope that this program demonstrates our commitment to keeping our customers current, and pursuing the most cost effective means of achieving this.

Josh Allen
DVDO Product Manager
Josh@DVDO.com
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post #107 of 1446 Old 10-04-2004, 09:58 AM
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Hey Josh this is Travis with Custom Entertainment, I saw that you had called I have been really busy lately, sorry I have not called back probably will today or tomorrow.

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post #108 of 1446 Old 10-04-2004, 10:27 AM
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Josh,

Excellent news!

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
www.hometheater.co.il
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post #109 of 1446 Old 10-04-2004, 05:08 PM
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The SDI upgrade is the same cost for both the iScan HD and the iScan HD+? There are no plans to make SDI a stock feature of either?
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post #110 of 1446 Old 10-04-2004, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
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SDI is the same price for both the HD and HD+, in fact, it is exactly the same SDI input module that fits into either unit. At this time there are no plans to make SDI standard. If you are concerned about installing the SDI input module yourself, you should call JVB Digital as they can sell you an iScan HD or HD+ with the SDI input preinstalled and they can modify your DVD player with an SDI output.

Josh Allen
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post #111 of 1446 Old 10-04-2004, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by Ricey
The HD/HD+ will not output a HD signal from the component inputs (say from a xbox game at 780p/1080i) through the DVI output but it will through the VGA/component output right?

You are correct. The iScan HD and HD+ do not have the hardware necessary to take an incoming analog HD signal and either process or transcode the signal to DVI. You can either run the Xbox at 480p max output or run an analog connection to your display to carry the Xbox signal.

Josh Allen
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post #112 of 1446 Old 10-04-2004, 05:44 PM
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Thanks Josh. One more question.
Was thinking of hooking the iScan to the dvi port of my LCD TV and have the xbox hooked up directly to the TV's HD Component port but then I realized my digital/HDTV cable box (uses component, dvi not yet activated by time warner)wouldnt work correctly. If I'm watching normal SD 480i channels, the iScan should be able to upconvert it no problem but what if i change to one of the HDTV channels? Will it just show up as snow? Maybe I'll just need to get a VGA->Component adapter to hook everything to the iScan.
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post #113 of 1446 Old 10-04-2004, 07:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Ricey - Have you considered running component video as the main connection between an iScan HD/HD+ to your RP-LCD? In your system it sounds like it may be the most convenient connection and give your very near the performance of the DVI connection. I would reassess your connections when the DVI out of your cable box is activated.

Most cable boxes will scale all channels, including SD channels to the chosen HD output resolution, either 720p or 1080i. This is true of both the DVI and YUV outputs. The typical work around is connecting the cable box with both an HD connection (YUV or DVI) and an SD connection (Composite or S-Video). This work around does require the user to manually change the inputs to watch native HD or deinterlaced/scaled SD.

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post #114 of 1446 Old 10-04-2004, 07:34 PM
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Josh

Interesting news about the upgrade. But I have 2 questions - 1. If if it's just a board exchange - why can't it be done at an end user level ? Most people who are computer savvy and HT savvy probably have the patience and expertise to exchange a circuit board (and with all due respect having opened the case to install the SDI module there ain't really too much to remove and replace!!) and 2. I bought my HD from AV science and shipped it to Australia myself. The retail prices quoted by the authorised distributor in Australia were basically double the US price. (Exchange rates, shipping and taxes don't add that much of a mark up.) There is no local retail or service centre in Sydney ( The distributor is in Melbourne - the retailer he sent me to in Sydney when I was considering buying locally doesn't carry the iScan because there is "no demand anymore") so there is probably no local service centre. I don't want to pack up my HD and ship it around the world. for something that I know I could probably do myself !! What do you suggest for us iScan HD users in the wide brown land of Oz.

Chris
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post #115 of 1446 Old 10-04-2004, 10:00 PM
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@Josh or Dale

There were significant PAL film mode locking problems with the HD.
Are these problems completely solved now?

Is it already or will it be possible to pass through e.g. DVI-SD/HD and YUV SD even interlaced sources on demand (e.g. option in the setup or remote control key)?

For CRT owners two standard resolutions 1440x864@50Hz (PAL) and 1440x720@60Hz (NTSC) are very interesting. Are these resolutions available as standard settings?

Best regards
Bernhard
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post #116 of 1446 Old 10-04-2004, 11:13 PM
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Josh,

Any plans on providing control over the cadence search window area? In Crystallio, reducing that window (controllable through the user) signficantly improved the cadence lock in PAL because of subtitles.

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
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post #117 of 1446 Old 10-05-2004, 04:08 AM
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I found out that my LCD uses a Pixel Works 181. Does anyone know how this compares to the silicon image 504 that the HD/HD+ uses?
From what I can see SD content is better than my old tv (wish it could be better) and even some HD content has slight artifact/noise. Thanks
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post #118 of 1446 Old 10-05-2004, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by ChrisR
Josh

Interesting news about the upgrade. But I have 2 questions - 1. If if it's just a board exchange - why can't it be done at an end user level ? Most people who are computer savvy and HT savvy probably have the patience and expertise to exchange a circuit board (and with all due respect having opened the case to install the SDI module there ain't really too much to remove and replace!!)
Chris

You will need a custom tool from Xylinx, and you would need to know how to flash an eprom. As stated in the announcement, it's not just a simple board exchange. Way too many things could go wrong to let this be done at the user level.

Josh Allen
DVDO Product Manager
Josh@DVDO.com
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post #119 of 1446 Old 10-05-2004, 03:06 PM
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Josh,

Has the speed on the pixel clock been increased or is it the same as the HD?

Tony
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post #120 of 1446 Old 10-06-2004, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by oferlaor
Josh,

Any plans on providing control over the cadence search window area? In Crystallio, reducing that window (controllable through the user) signficantly improved the cadence lock in PAL because of subtitles.

Not at this time.

Josh Allen
DVDO Product Manager
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