Wish List of Features for the Upcoming Algolith Dragonfly - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 221 Old 09-28-2004, 11:47 AM
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To answer the previous question, I would definitely like SDI inputs (at least two). I presently use an SDI modded RP-91 to feed my scaler. I have been using an SDI modded DVD player for about three years. I am very happy with the picture quality.

Until there is a prevalent alternative that surpasses it in quality, for me, SDI is a must.
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post #92 of 221 Old 09-28-2004, 07:39 PM
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I absolutely agree about SDI "in" on the processor. I was the one who originally asked for it in this thread. What I was trying to answer was the comment by Emery who asked for SDI "out" on the processor or an optional SDI "out".
The only reason I mentiond SDI out would be for professional applications, not HT. I know this product is being designed for HT but I work in the broadcast world where everything is SDI. A dual purpose product might be a good idea. They could possibly have two versions. A home theatre version and a pro version with more I/O. Its just a thought but it may be a good idea being the only difference in engineering would be the I/O.... just opens up their market.
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post #93 of 221 Old 09-29-2004, 12:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. But even in the pro world, what is the point of an SDI out on a processor? SDI is for 480i only, correct? What would you want to feed in to the processor to down rez to 480i?

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post #94 of 221 Old 09-29-2004, 02:28 AM
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So to summarize...

Want:

1) Mosquito NR incorporated into Dragonfly
2) SDI Input (1 - 2 ports)
3) HDMI / HDCP / DVI input (multiple ports)
4) HDMI / HDCP / DVI output
5) RGBHV over BNC outputs
6) 48 / 72 Hz output rates for judder free film sourced output
7) All the other "standard" scaler features

Not needed in a consumer device:

1) HD-SDI input - expensive to implement. There are no consumer sources, nor will there ever be.
2) SDI output - opens the door for possible legal issues. Plus no value add in the consumer space.

 

 

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post #95 of 221 Old 09-29-2004, 07:42 AM
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Mark,

Some folks use the term "SDI" to mean both SDI (480i) and HD-SDI (1080i).
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post #96 of 221 Old 09-29-2004, 11:47 AM
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I think rabidnet's summary is pretty good except I would make the sdi inputs optional. I would have 2 hdmi inputs standard with the option of adding up to 2 hdmi or 2 sdi inputs (or 1 and 1).

Jaime

If you can't say anything kind at least have the decency to be vague...
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post #97 of 221 Old 09-30-2004, 01:32 AM
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I'm very fine with 2 HDMI on board and the chance to add 2 more (in lieu of SDI, 1 and 1, etc.) as JJay suggests. That would meet everyone's needs and allow for a sufficiently small backplane. The SDI / HDMI module, however, would have to be cleverly designed and / or connected internally using ribbon cables.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #98 of 221 Old 10-01-2004, 10:15 PM - Thread Starter
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If more than one Realta chip is necessary to give us the ultimate in deinterlacing, scaling, and MNR, then please do it all in one box with multiple chips.

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post #99 of 221 Old 10-02-2004, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
If more than one Realta chip is necessary to give us the ultimate in deinterlacing, scaling, and MNR, then please do it all in one box with multiple chips.
That is a great idea which I am going to take one step further and suggest
the use of expansion daughterboards. So we can keep adding
more Realtas are we pile on the different functions and only
pay for the processing power as we need them.
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post #100 of 221 Old 10-02-2004, 06:17 PM
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Just a note that HD-SDI, being the current professional broadcast standard for HD 1.5Gb/sec internal transmission in post and broadcast, CANNOT transport 1080p60. So, even if you had HD-SDI I/O in your set top box, you would always be limited to 1080i59.94. In the high-end post areas like Lucasfilm and ILM, they use 'dual-link' HD-SDI paths, for an aggregate total of over 3Gb/sec data transfer. Currently this is the only way to get 1080p60 and 4:4:4 signals around a facility.

There are also copy protection issues with home use, HUGE ones, that I won't go into here.

Having seen a lot of 1080p60 lately, I'm sold on it. Can't wait to see this at home.
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post #101 of 221 Old 10-02-2004, 07:36 PM
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Both component analog and DVI support 1080p60.
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post #102 of 221 Old 10-02-2004, 09:29 PM
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I understand. Just pointing out the limitations of HD-SDI.
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post #103 of 221 Old 10-03-2004, 10:20 AM
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Realistically, though, true 1080p content is likely to be film sourced for a long while, so only 24Hz needs to be supported. True 60Hz material (sports, etc) is likely to come from 720p/1080i formats.
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post #104 of 221 Old 10-03-2004, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kromkamp
Realistically, though, true 1080p content is likely to be film sourced for a long while, so only 24Hz needs to be supported. True 60Hz material (sports, etc) is likely to come from 720p/1080i formats.
It’s not the source format as much as the format after de-interlacing. The best way to de-interlace 1080i 60 Hz content is to 1080p60. This is a limitation with the current Teranex boxes.
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post #105 of 221 Old 10-03-2004, 03:24 PM
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1080p60 is a limitation with the Teranex I/O hardware only. The Teranex array processors are capable of whatever resolution we map to. We demostrated a 'data box' at IBC last year that could process 2K images through the Teranex processor from a server. 4K was a possibility but we dropped the project because of the small market size (right now at least).
Note that this was non-real time processing, about 7 fps, and film-based. We have also done 1080i to 4K upconversions using the Teranex algos with excellent results.

Hollywood doesn't currently have the ability to record super hi-rez (4k) real time so everything is stored as data files.
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post #106 of 221 Old 10-03-2004, 04:24 PM
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Ray,

I understand and as you mentioned, single link HD-SDI does not support 1080p60. Support of dual link HD-SDI would still be a good feature of the present Teranex products and the digital cinema projectors can handle that input. That market is getting larger and alternative content processed through Teranex would be attractive. I am using a 6RU unit and the only alternative is to convert 1080i60 to 720p60 for 60 Hz content to avoid a lot of judder.
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post #107 of 221 Old 10-03-2004, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Right. As a consumer who watches a lot of live video sports at 1080i with a 60hz refresh, I would like 1080p at 60. My projector can handle that, no problem. Thanks in advance for giving it to me.

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post #108 of 221 Old 10-03-2004, 05:51 PM
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It won't be long before you see 1080p60 over SDI in the studio. It will take some time to get to the consumer level but it's coming!
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post #109 of 221 Old 10-03-2004, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't need it HD-SDI. I need it analog only. Hell I have it now from 480i. I want to get it from 1080i in. Just give me motion compensation 1080p from 480i and 1080i please. :)

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post #110 of 221 Old 10-03-2004, 06:22 PM
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It would be nice to avoid the A-D, D-A and A-D conversions. Mark, I agree with you, 1080i60 directly in to the display. A VXP processor does the digital 1080i30-p60 conversion and them out to the display. :)

A word of caution, motion compensated processing does as much bad as it does good.
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post #111 of 221 Old 10-04-2004, 05:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Off topic, but perhaps you can explain the difference between motion adaptive and motion compensation? I thought motion compensation is the ultimate in deinterlacing but that the computing capacity needed is the factor preventing its implementation at the consumer level.

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post #112 of 221 Old 10-04-2004, 11:29 AM
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Mark,

That's correct, Motion Compensation is the ultimate in deinterlacing. It's still slightly out of reach even for the Realta, from what I understand.

Cheers,
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post #113 of 221 Old 10-04-2004, 01:52 PM
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Please note that the HQV motion adaptive algorithm is the best there is because it's so refined; remember that it has been tested over and over again by the professional markets (Hollywood/broadcast/post, etc).

Mark is dead on when he says:
Quote:
motion compensation is the ultimate in deinterlacing but that the computing capacity needed is the factor preventing its implementation at the consumer level.
It only does "as much bad as good" if you try to do it without the processing power required (i.e. Teranex supercomputer). It's better than motion adaptive because it shifts the fields that are spatially misaligned due to motion so that they are on top of each other so to provide full resolution. I've seen many a jaws drop when they see it in action for the first (and 2nd, 3rd, 4th...) time.

Hollywood Quality Video
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post #114 of 221 Old 10-04-2004, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mark haflich
Off topic, but perhaps you can explain the difference between motion adaptive and motion compensation? I thought motion compensation is the ultimate in deinterlacing but that the computing capacity needed is the factor preventing its implementation at the consumer level.
Mark,

You are absolutely correct! Motion compensated processing does provide you with the ultimate in de-interlacing when done right! It definitely requires an extreme amount of processing prower. As a benchmark, even the HQV with its "performance on the level of teraOPs" still only does motion adaptive de-interlacing (as pointed out by HQV in the previous post). :)

I'll try to explain the differences between the two methods. For more information, YubYub's Video Processor FAQ has a lot of information on this subject matter.

Motion Adaptive (MA)
- Detects motion between fields. The more fields that are used, the more accurate the motion vector.
- Uses historical data points to try to extrapolate the future position.
- One or multi-dimensional filters are used.
- Filters along edge and temporal directions.
- Performed on a field, block or pixel basis.
- Good performance (about 98% accurate when done on a per-pixel basis over a number of fields).
- Good temporal resolution, sharp details, less temporal flicker and artifacts.
- Moderate complexity.

Motion Compensated (MC)
- Estimates motion between fields.
- Uses historical data points to try to predict the future position.
- One or multi-dimensional filters are used.
- Filters along detected temporal direction.
- Performed on a block or pixel basis.
- Very good performance (over 99% accurate when done right).
- Very good temporal resolution with sharp details.
- Very high complexity.

When trying to predict the future location in MC algorithms, you are bound to guess wrong some of the time (hence my comment that it can do as much bad as it does good). The 'black magic' is in what you do when you guess wrong that adds complexity to the algorithm. This technology will get to the consumer level in time (Moore's Law).

I hope that this helps explain the difference to you.
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post #115 of 221 Old 10-04-2004, 11:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the explanations.

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post #116 of 221 Old 10-05-2004, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by bluevision
It won't be long before you see 1080p60 over SDI in the studio. It will take some time to get to the consumer level but it's coming!
Thanks for the explanations on deinterlacing modes, but I have to disagree with you on the statement above. With the copy protection concerns, we'll never see 1080p running over an unencrypted transport like HD-SDI in the consumer space. That's what HDMI is for.

 

 

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post #117 of 221 Old 10-06-2004, 12:20 AM
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rabident,

I don't see where you two are disagreeing. SDI/HD-SDI are strictly professional transport mediums. The fact that we're piggybacking on SDI is not making it any more consumer oriented.

HD-SDI will not compete with HDMI, although it is a far better transport, IMO.

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post #118 of 221 Old 10-06-2004, 09:18 PM
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Good evening AVS forum users, thank you very much for all the wonderful constructive advise. Following your input. I'm going to do a first here (I believe) and tell you what we plan as connections for the Dragon Fly based on all your input, and a focus on main stream current and future needs. Unfortunately No SDI, or BNC's. I know some of you will be upset, but we believe HDMI inputs will serve 480i digital needs and HDMI output will give best possible PQ output, also available at the o/p component on RCA and RGBHV on HD-15 to drive analog devices. An electrical and optical audio delay is part of the product. Features will be competitive. Now I need your help one more time, since we have HDMI in and out for various devices, could you provide us with what you feel is the most common HDMI DVD player, set top box and display

Inputs

1 YC(SVHS)
1 Composite on RCA
1 Component on 3 RCA's
2 HDMI

Outputs

1 Component on RCA
1 RGBHV on HD-15 (VGA type connector)
1 HDMI

Control;

USB
IR
wired rmt
RS232
Ethernet
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post #119 of 221 Old 10-06-2004, 10:36 PM
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Well, too bad. No SDI in and no BNCs makes this a less than serious product for videophiles. I guess I'll look elsewhere. Again, there are only three dvd players I know of that will output 480i over HDMI: the Pioneer, and two Arcams. You'll really hobble your fine product with these choices.

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post #120 of 221 Old 10-06-2004, 10:45 PM
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And I think -- by contrast -- this will be a fine product for videophiles, but....

.... there needs to be a companion HDMI switcher with more ports. I'm not going to press multiple buttons, please... At a bare minimum, work with the switcher folk to make this a single solution. Please :)

As for set-top, display, and DVD, that's such a moving target it's pointless to even say.

Today, Toshiba and Panasonic lead in low-end DVD players with HDMI, Denon is a serious player as you move up the value chain.

Set tops? The DirecTV/Tivo w/HDMI comes to mind.

Displays? Too many to mention. I am currently using a Sharp panel and considering a Sony projector.

Mark

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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