Wish List of Features for the Upcoming Algolith Dragonfly - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 221 Old 09-22-2004, 10:53 PM - Thread Starter
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As many of you know who frequent this forum, Algolith is planning on introducing in the 2nd Q of next year, a stand alone video processor for a MSRP of approximately $3500 incorporating the Silicon Optix Realta chip and Algorith mosquito noise reduction algorithms. Algolith staff have indicated in other threads in this forum that if there were sufficient demand certain features could be included in the product.

Therefore, I being very interested in the Dragonfly for my own 9 inch CRT FP based HT, for deinterlacering and scaling 480i to 960p for DVDs at a refresh rate of 72hz, deinterlacering and scaling 480i video to 960p at 60HZ for SD video, and for deinterlacering 1080i to 1080p at 60hz for HD video, as well as scaling 720p to 1080p for HD video etc etc, am starting this thread in the hopes that the mighty AVS Forum membership might assist Algolith with the features needed design of the Dragonfly. Hopefully, Algolith staff will participate here as well.

What would I like? BNC RGBHV outputs and BNC SDI in, variable output resolutions including those needed in la la land, whoops I mean for us horse and buggy, whoops CRT FP users, and variable refresh rates, the capability to make gray scale adjustments at each of the 11 gray scale steps. Please come on in, the waters fine and the moderator will keep the sharks out.

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post #2 of 221 Old 09-22-2004, 11:50 PM
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Good Morning Mark, we trully appreciate your initiative , and will let "the power of the AVS Forum" help us determine and define the features needed on our future scaling product. I stress the fact that we are fairly advanced in the Dragon Fly program, so pls if we can't meet every one's expectations initially I hope you will all forgive us. We anxiously await the interest and feedback your tread generates. We need to set expectations right. The Dragon Fly is a Scaler/De Interlacer 3;2/2;2 cadence correction product only, with limited Noise Reduction capabilities. To get the full Algolith Mosquito(Mpeg) Noise reduction you'll still need the Mosquito unit connected in series with the Dragon Fly. This is the very set up you saw at the Silicon Optix Party and in our booth. Our road map is to create several 1RU chassis that each perform different tasks. Sort of "Ã* la audio style" i.e. amplifier, pre amplifier, tuner etc. seperate boxes for each task. . Hence each Algolith component will have a different purpose and specific task. The major reason for this is due to the complexity of our algorithms and amount of number crunching power available and required to achieve such level of picture quality, in de interlacing, scaling and Mpeg Noise reduction. The HQV Realta engine is a powerful IC and we at Algolith look forward to providing products like the Dragon Fly with it. However for the moment shear number crunching power does not allow us to have both HQV and MNR in the one product. But who knows what Moore's law holds for us all...
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post #3 of 221 Old 09-23-2004, 02:45 AM
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Whatever you are planning to do, please, don't forget PAL perople (720x576i :( ).

My wish list would be
  • Deinterlacing and scaling for 576i to 864p
  • Deinterlacing 1080i to 1080p
  • Scaling 720p to 1080p
  • 50Hz HDTV standard for 1080i and 720p (Euro1080i)
  • Refresh rates possibilities from 50Hz to 100Hz (or at least 75) in steps
  • HD Sub D-15 (Vga) inputs (at least three) each for RGBHV, RGBS and YPrPb
  • HD Sub D-15 (Vga) input for pass through
  • HD Sub D-15 (Vga) output for RGBHV
  • BNC outputs for RGBHV
  • BNC inputs (at least two) for SDI
  • Grey Scale adjustment
  • OSD
  • Format Conversion (Windowboxing 4:3 in 16:9)
  • Firmware upgrade on RS232

    Cherioo.
    Luca





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post #4 of 221 Old 09-23-2004, 03:54 AM - Thread Starter
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I would hope that if the box does not do mosquito noise reduction (funny at the party the engineers said the Realta chip could and would be programmed to include both deinterlacing, scaling, and mosquito noise reduction), that it at least provides the best deinterlacing possible for 480i and 1080i. I do not care about split screen this or that, I want the equivalent of per pixel or motion adaptive deinterlacing of 480i and 1080i. No downgrading of 1080i deinterlacing to incorporate other features.

If multiple boxes are required, please set forth what boxes are being contemplated. Two? Deinterlacing/scaling and Mosquito noise reduction? What does 1RU mean. One rack unit vertical space?

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post #5 of 221 Old 09-23-2004, 04:30 AM
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By 2005 you'll be able to get two Algolith boxes, Mosquito (Mpeg Noise Reducer) which already ships today and supports 480i to 1080i as inputs and Dragonfly (HQV) our scaler will give you the best PQ from 480i to 1080i as inputs, and 480p to 1080p at the output and yes we will have Euro specs as well. 1RU is indeed 1 rack unit high or 1.75 inches high
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post #6 of 221 Old 09-23-2004, 04:37 AM
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Quote:
Our road map is to create several 1RU chassis that each perform different tasks. Sort of "Ã* la audio style" i.e. amplifier, pre amplifier, tuner etc. seperate boxes for each task. . Hence each Algolith component will have a different purpose and specific task.
I haven't been following the threads on Algolith very closely, so forgive me if this is asked and answered:

Will there be support for digital inputs/outputs (DVI/HDMI, firewire)? Having two or three boxes, each with its own A/D and D/A conversion isn't exactly ideal, along with the fact that the industry is moving towards digital. Indeed, it's one of the main items keeping me away from the Algolith box right now.

-Y
"First things first, but not necessarily in that order." - Dr. Who
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post #7 of 221 Old 09-23-2004, 04:39 AM - Thread Starter
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So the Mosquito box would have to come first? That would mean no SDI in or out of HDSDI in or out and those silly RCA type connectors? What is the MSRP of the Mosquito box? Wouldn't a one box solution be possible using two Realta chips with a fairly substantial price reduction over the two box solution? I guess for the time being I would give up on your Mosquito box and hope for a properly designed re inputs and outputs deinterlacing/scaling box.

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post #8 of 221 Old 09-23-2004, 05:03 AM
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I'm curious Mark and Luca you both ask for SDi and or HD SDI, both are formats commonly available in the broadcasting facilities from D1, DIGITAL BETACAM and HD CAM I'm familiar with the broadcasting world, but in the HT worlds what sources do you have that give you SDI or HD SDI? Isn't DVI (8bits) has distance and hand shake issues, and kind of staying in the PC world. Now HDMI will eventually be able to support 10 bit and addresses many of the short falls of DVI. We believe HDMI will become more common. What sources do you mostly use in your application? Most requests we get is YC for Satellite and cable Set top boxes in analog and DVI or HDMI for digital. A third Box we're contemplating is an AV switch box accepting various types of signals to then distribute digitally a signal to the other Algolith components.
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post #9 of 221 Old 09-23-2004, 05:15 AM - Thread Starter
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We video nerds have been using video processors for years. Many of us have modified DVD players with SDI out and processors with SDI in. For hi def sat boxes we usually have YUV or component out. What ever digital out for those boxes such as DVI or HDMI would be good as an in for us too. It is fairly easy for us to modify a sat box with stupid RCA or VGA connectors to BNC. For analog out the best picture would be to use the component out rather than RGBHV outs. For the present, where we are limited to say 1080i out, we can transcode to RGBHV (for those CRT FPs which accept only RGB in).

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post #10 of 221 Old 09-23-2004, 06:41 AM
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I am possibly missing the obvious, but why does no one suggest HDMI or DVI output on this unit. How to you transition SDI to your digital fp

Dan
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post #11 of 221 Old 09-23-2004, 09:50 AM
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SDI and HD SDI are really "gray market" mods, although I respect any one who is willing to modify their equipment to gain maximum PQ, such mods can cause legal issues for a corporation making CE products, as they offer no protection for the content. This may be one of the reasons it hampered its wide acceptance by the CE industry. DVI HDCP and HDMI both address these issues, hence are endorsed by CE manufacturers and the Movie Industry. To gain the best posible PQ our output will be Digital, and have RGBHV analog, we have a size constraint, we'll probably use a combo DVI or HDMI connection. DVI is what we showed at CEDIA, the final production units will be HDMI compatible.
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post #12 of 221 Old 09-23-2004, 10:41 AM
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Having used the Mosquito for a while, I strongly vote for RS232 and/or Ethernet for automation control. Crestron hasn't enabled USB on their processors yet.

Check out this HD-SDI, SDI, DVI & RGB to DVI Converter! If this thing works as advertised, the SDI people should be covered.

http://www.doremilabs.com/products/HDVI-20.htm

doremi may have to change something to enable 480i out on the DVI side.

EDIT: found the converter
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post #13 of 221 Old 09-23-2004, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Almost every stand alone video processor manufacturer offers at least as an option SDI in. Lumagen, Focus Enhancement, Key Digital, the list goes on and on. Without SDI in, it is game disqualification for me. Likewise, with non RGBHV via BNCs you will get obvious visable ringing on our large screen FP displays.

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post #14 of 221 Old 09-23-2004, 01:26 PM
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Without SDI in it is also game over for me. Very few DVD players with HDMI have 480i output, which means that one is stuck with the deinterlacing chip found in the player. HDMI or DVI works for hi-def sources, since they permit either 720p or 1080i signals.

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post #15 of 221 Old 09-24-2004, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Algolith
SDI and HD SDI are really "gray market" mods, although I respect any one who is willing to modify their equipment to gain maximum PQ, such mods can cause legal issues for a corporation making CE products, as they offer no protection for the content. This may be one of the reasons it hampered its wide acceptance by the CE industry. DVI HDCP and HDMI both address these issues, hence are endorsed by CE manufacturers and the Movie Industry. To gain the best posible PQ our output will be Digital, and have RGBHV analog, we have a size constraint, we'll probably use a combo DVI or HDMI connection. DVI is what we showed at CEDIA, the final production units will be HDMI compatible.
Hi sir.
Please consider that almost 100% of Italian HT addicts use a DVD player with SDI output.

There is plenty of DVD players (and Sat receivers) with SDI output nowadays; I could likely say that SDI output is one of the sine qua non features of an Hi Quality Deinterlacer/Scaler in order to avoid a useless D/A conversion.

As Mark correctly said, every Stand alone Processor comes with SDI input.
Moreover, my Dune-F which is a PURE EUROPEAN product (from Vigatec, DE) comes with three SDI inputs and I've never heard about CE problems.

For CRT FP users (who are the first addressees and enjoyees of such a scaler) I suppose DVI output is far less importnat than an SDI input.
I would say, in my case, it is a discriminant point in the decision-making process.

Moreover, RGBHV on 5 BNC is as well, an important feature you should consider; almost 90% (if not the totality) of Hi Quyality CRTs use RGBHV on BNC inputs.

Thanks
Luca
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post #16 of 221 Old 09-24-2004, 01:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mark haflich
What is the MSRP of the Mosquito box?
Mark, Here it is.
I suppose a little bit expensive if considered in a two box environment with the upconverter.

Quote:
Originally posted by mark haflich
Wouldn't a one box solution be possible using two Realta chips with a fairly substantial price reduction over the two box solution?
Well, I SUBSCRIBE

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post #17 of 221 Old 09-24-2004, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Luca
Hi sir.
Please consider that almost 100% of Italian HT addicts use a DVD player with SDI output.

There is plenty of DVD players (and Sat receivers) with SDI output nowadays; I could likely say that SDI output is one of the sine qua non features of an Hi Quality Deinterlacer/Scaler in order to avoid a useless D/A conversion.

As Mark correctly said, every Stand alone Processor comes with SDI input.
Moreover, my Dune-F which is a PURE EUROPEAN product (from Vigatec, DE) comes with three SDI inputs and I've never heard about CE problems.

For CRT FP users (who are the first addressees and enjoyees of such a scaler) I suppose DVI output is far less importnat than an SDI input.
I would say, in my case, it is a discriminant point in the decision-making process.

Moreover, RGBHV on 5 BNC is as well, an important feature you should consider; almost 90% (if not the totality) of Hi Quyality CRTs use RGBHV on BNC inputs.

Thanks
Luca
Well you guys are adament about SDI, I like the de interlacing argument, and digital track. Would a converter like the Doremi sujested by WJChan above or Miranda's http://www.miranda.com/product.php?i=281&l=1 resolve that issue if we have DVI/HDMI inputs?
It would really support the argument if someone could provide links of commercially available DVD players and Sat receivers with SDI outputs? What about HD SDI is it required at the input as well or only at the output?

As for RGBHV output , Mark you mention ringing problems, what do you believe causes the ringing, the connector type, the frequency response of cables or their lenght, or the output resolution of the processor?
Many of you seem to have CRT projectors, again we'd love to see links to their manufacturers. What do you think of the trend towards Flat displays, LCD or Plasma and DLP, DILA and LCD projector technologies. It seems as though the CRT is being phased out? Is this true?
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post #18 of 221 Old 09-24-2004, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mark haflich
For hi def sat boxes we usually have YUV or component out. What ever digital out for those boxes such as DVI or HDMI would be good as an in for us too.For analog out the best picture would be to use the component out rather than RGBHV outs.
So Mark having component in and out capable of supporting SD and HD frequencies like we currently have on the Mosquito is a likely means of connection then for many different types of sources?. You'd prefer Bayonet type connection, for sturdyness or frenquency response? If we had HDMI in and out as well would we conver 90 % of the market? Or we'd still be missing some means of connection?
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post #19 of 221 Old 09-24-2004, 05:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mark haflich
Almost every stand alone video processor manufacturer offers at least as an option SDI in. Lumagen, Focus Enhancement, Key Digital, the list goes on and on. Without SDI in, it is game disqualification for me. Likewise, with non RGBHV via BNCs you will get obvious visable ringing on our large screen FP displays.
How much is the SDI Option in the processors above? Any one offer HD SDI options in or out? IF it was optional how much would you be willing to pay for it? Having an optional SDI /HD SDi option makes more sense because the subsantial added parts cost is not being encurred by the majority of people who will not require it. Would it have to be a factory installed option, or field upgradable?
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post #20 of 221 Old 09-24-2004, 05:52 AM
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Algolith,

There are quite a few inputs that you'd need today (providing just component for a processor is not nearly enough unless you'll also want transcoders and filters entering into your video section). No consumer scaler manufacturer offers HD SDI yet (and frankly, I'm not sure if they ever will).

There are many companies offering SDI modding services. Ayre, Meridian and Arcam are all leading manufacturers that offer standard SDI output.

In the UK, there are Sky+ PVR boxes with SDI out.

Here's some more info from a thread I started a while back (if you're up to the challenge of reading the entire thread):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&highlight=SDI

There are a few companies already who offer SDI as an optional add on card. The prices are usually around $300-$400 for the card.

There's no need to have SDI output. Your outputs can be RGBHV and DVI/HDMI.

Basically, you'll need composite, SVIDEO, RGBcvS, SDI, component and DVI or HDMI inputs. A high end scaler cannot hold its own without all of these today.

Cheers,
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post #21 of 221 Old 09-24-2004, 06:26 AM
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42 and 72 are a must. 42 for those using digital projectors 72 for the CRT crowed.

1080I de interlacing.

Custom re sizing and position of image for custom aspect ratios with 3 memory presets for those using anamorphic lens with their digitals.

The teranex and this chip have a very unique sharpness filter.
It can be used for SD/HD but whats nice is that you can not only sharpen or de sharpen but you can also dial in a video frequency allowing you to rid an image or dvd of that pesky edge enhancement.
Thats the one thing I loved about the Teranex and its one feature they use at the shows to make dvds compare close to HD. Please give us this feature.

This chip is very powerful with many features.

Just asking for 1080I de interlacing..42/72 hz and custom aspect ratio control
are features already in sub 3k boxes or will shortly become standard in sub 3k scalers.
We crave features beyond these from this chip or whats the use.

So manufactures using this chip please give us the unique potential from this chip and not just the standard features we are already use to seeing.

Im scared first generation products with this chip will fall short on its unique features and its capability because the manufactures wont know what to do with it first time around.
It would be good training for the manufacture to spend some hands on with a teranex to see what it can do.

I think a company would sell far more 6 or 7k mini teranex with features known and related to teranex then 3k boxes using this chip but with features limited to whats already out there.

Shortly everyone will have this chip but the one giving us its potential will be the one selling the most boxes.

The goal shouldn't be to keep the price at 3k that usually means we are going to be short changed somewhere so concentrate on giving us a killer box even if it means a higher price.
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post #22 of 221 Old 09-24-2004, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Algolith

It would really support the argument if someone could provide links of commercially available DVD players and Sat receivers with SDI outputs? What about HD SDI is it required at the input as well or only at the output?
Well, Oferlaor answerd to this issue.
I can add Proceed and remind you that , despite of several companies offering the SDI input as an option, there are several DVD players (Pioneer, Denon, Onkyo, Panasonic, Marantz, Lexicon, EAD etc.) that could be easly SDI modded with 100 dollars.
Quote:
Originally posted by Algolith
Many of you seem to have CRT projectors, again we'd love to see links to their manufacturers.
You can find RGBHV inputs on 5 BNC in:
Electrohome
Barco
Nec
Sony
etc.etc.
Quote:
Originally posted by Algolith
What do you think of the trend towards Flat displays, LCD or Plasma and DLP, DILA and LCD projector technologies. It seems as though the CRT is being phased out? Is this true?
Well....NO, it's not true ;)
Let me explain: it's obviously true that the trend is towards digital but if we speak about real P/Q, then CRT is still the leading technology (or at least it is for many of us). I kindly invite you to come and watch at the siwtch-test between my 9500LC Ultra and whichever DLP you wont (n.b.: haven't seen any Qualia till today here).
There are several penalties to pay in order to obtain that P/Q (expecially compared to the Plung and Play digital tech.) but once you get it, you're at the top.
Anyway thanks for the time you are spending :)
Luca
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post #23 of 221 Old 09-24-2004, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Algolith
How much is the SDI Option in the processors above? Any one offer HD SDI options in or out? IF it was optional how much would you be willing to pay for it? Having an optional SDI /HD SDi option makes more sense because the subsantial added parts cost is not being encurred by the majority of people who will not require it. Would it have to be a factory installed option, or field upgradable?
That would be an acceptable solution but please, don't add another box.

Try to offer it as an internal Borad upgrade to be installed by the final user.
Concerning my needs, there is no need (sorry for the pun) of SDI output.

Thanks
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post #24 of 221 Old 09-24-2004, 06:55 AM
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Regarding SDI and HD-SDI, some higher end installations use professional source equipment that has these outputs. Also, projectors are used that have HD-SDI inputs. Although the price of the Teranex boxes is not a problem here, they don’t offer some features important for HT. The market size of this segment is small, but there are large benefits to placing units in these installations and the resultant sales in the larger volume segment of the market.

SDI is needed for input only and HD-SDI for both input and output. They can be done as options.
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post #25 of 221 Old 09-24-2004, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alan Gouger
The goal shouldn't be to keep the price at 3k that usually means we are going to be short changed somewhere so concentrate on giving us a killer box even if it means a higher price.
Alan, you took the words out of my mouth. ;)
Thanks
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post #26 of 221 Old 09-24-2004, 08:17 AM
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Algolith has to decide what market they want to play in. I'm considering spending $10k on the Sony SXRD 70" RPTV. With that in mind, I think $7k for a processor to go with it is excessive for me. I think $3k is a nice price-point for people who have a nice $6k to $10k display device. Algolith has to figure out the tradeoffs at different price points in order to move the product.

The external SDI->DVI converters probably have to be tweaked to disable the internal scaler and I heard 480i over HDMI/DVI is a little different.
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post #27 of 221 Old 09-24-2004, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Alan. We certainly welcome your participation here. :)

Most of the questions asked me by the Algolith rep have been answered by you guys already. Thanks.

I would add that the ringing I see with 50 ohm RCA type connectors instead of 75 ohm BNCs is I think due to the ringing that occurs when terminating a 75 ohm video cable with 50 ohm connectors. The ringing is really not noticeable on low def or small screen displays. But it is painfully obvious on say 1080p on a large screen.

Also new CRT front projectors are really a thing of the past. But many of use still use them. The only real inputs we can use are some form of RGB usually RGBHV. We need to drive say 20 ft lengths of RGB cable.

The thing that excites me about the Realta chip is the high quality deinterlacing and scaling possible. Sure Alan, 1080i deinterlacing is coming from several manufacturers but what is mostly available now is very low quality (bob). The Realta is capable of giving us something like motion compensation! That is what I want out of the chip. Hell build a box with multiple chips and give me everything. It seems to me that the multibox approach to get the Mosquito noise reduction won't work because of input and output limitations of the current box. If I had to choose one, I'll skip the existing box and buy the new one provided it has SDI in for DVD and component in for my sat box and RGBHV out with BNCs. I would use BNCs for everything and use RCA to BNC adapters ala Lumagen if necessary.

Mark Haflich
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post #28 of 221 Old 09-24-2004, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Algolith
It seems as though the CRT is being phased out? Is this true?

Hey???




Who told you that???




;)
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post #29 of 221 Old 09-24-2004, 08:41 AM
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I would definitely buy a One-Box unit containing both Mosquito Noise Reduction and Realta Deinter/scaling capabilities with SDI input and RGBHV output on 5 BNC.

As an example, if you are using a 7796A Belden Cable (n.5 x 1505a) to transfer the RGBHV signal from the processor to the CRT, it is much easier (crimping or soldering a BNC) and safer (mechanical grip of the BNC) and better (75 Ohm instead of 50) to make a BNC connection at both ends instead of a VGA or a Rca or something else.
And I can assure the difference is really noticeable on my 2.6 mt screen at
1080p.
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post #30 of 221 Old 09-24-2004, 09:07 AM
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From what I'm seeing the high end users are still a long way away from abandoning CRTs.

There's a very large crowd of CRT users who may exorbitantly high costs to ISF their display and squeeze every bit of PQ out of it.

This is the very same customer base mid and high end scaler manufacturers are shooting for.

Alan,

I agree with you completely (although I would prefer the box cost less than $3K). Integrators and high end users are looking for more than just a baseline set of features - they need strong flexibility. This is exactly what gives the Lumagen scalers their good name - you can coax them into 1001 different custom installations without adding anything else.

BTW, where did the 42Hz rate come from. I think you meant 48Hz, didn't you?

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
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