Poll: Who doesn't own The Rock and why? - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 07-13-2001, 08:42 AM
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>>". However, I just can't comprehend how you can rant about the 6.75 test patch on the Faroudja being poor when in fact it is perfect"

That was a reference to Faroudja 3000, not for Faroudja NR. Faroudja 3000 has some problems rendering the 6.75 Mhz pattern without artifacts. You can clearly see that the sharpness of the ROCK+ 6.75 Mhz has improved greatly over what you've previously seen when you probably last saw the ROCK, and it looks far closer to your Faroudja NR 6.75 Mhz photo and the other, older, ROCK photos. Re-read my above posts again.

You challenged me on the other Faroudja products, including Faroudja 3000. You said, "that I feel there is not a single area where the Rock outperforms the Faroudja NR not even the 3000 or 5000, the NR. Please tell me an area or areas where it does. I am requesting information, you are not hawking it, please tell us." (false statement said by ericbee) ... I pointed out something that shattered that statement, because I knew the Faroudja 3000 couldn't do 6.75 Mhz properly. I never said that the Faroudja NR could not do 6.75 Mhz perfectly - I was talking about Faroudja 3000. Then you reverted to sticking with comparisions only to Faroudja NR. But a few posts before that, you mentioned the Faroudja 3000, in that very statement I pointed out. That was an easy one for me to disprove on, because many people knows of its limitations on 6.75 Mhz patterns. Feel free to do a test on the Faroudja 3000.

No miscommunication has been done. You're just creating miscommunication where none exists, by trying to make me seem like I was pointing out the NR instead of 3000. I have been pointing out which Faroudja product that I have been referring to.

All you've shown is to prove that the NR and ROCK+ has similiar ability to resolve the 6.75 Mhz pattern - when my point was to disprove the statement that you made regarding all Faroudja scalers being superior in all ways. You gave me a choice. I chose Faroudja 3000 versus ROCK+ regarding 6.75 Mhz. Your inability to read my posts misinterpreted it as ROCK+ versus NR You're forgetting it all too easily. You may want to re-read my posts again, since you are obviously misunderstanding them!

Also, you forgot that I do not do ROCK customer service on AVSFORUM anymore! You may want to reword "because of poor customer service" to "because of I disagree with Mark Rejhon" or "because I am upset with Mark Rejhon". http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif Those would be a lot more accurate, because I never did any customer service in this thread. It is of course a valid complaint too, if you also want to say "because Mark Rejhon isn't allowed to ROCK customer service" to ROCK owners on AVSFORUM. But that hasn't changed, since I already announced that quite some time ago.

If you still don't agree with me, you can talk to the many people who have observed problems with the Faroudja 3000 6.75 Mhz pattern, including tommyboy who said "The Faroudja 3000 displayed the Avia 200TVL resolution pattern 6.75Mhz circle as a solid gray circle. If what you've heard is true, I trust this pattern should look much sharper and actually resolve some of the 6.75Mhz pattern?" [ link ] Also, the TK Chan image of the Faroudja 3000 rendering of 6.75 Mhz is pretty soft and gray, worse than the ROCK+.

Perhaps Faroudja fixed it in a newer firmware which I am not presently aware of, which is a valid defense you could have bothered to made, but you never did, because you've misunderstood my post.

Since both you and I have been warned by tommyboy, I don't plan to contribute any further to this thread, except everybody can see the errors in your post. We both might as well go silent and agree to disagree. Even if you don't want to re-read my posts that you misunderstood. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
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Lead Software Engineer for The TAW ROCK

[This message has been edited by Mark Rejhon (edited 07-13-2001).]

Thanks,
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Old 07-13-2001, 10:04 AM
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I greatly enjoyed reading this thread. I think Mark's responses and ericbee's replies should continue. I would like them to take it a little less personally, but I for one learn a lot from these discussions.

Critical analysis and comparison has great value! Mark is not "advertising" when he is directly rebutting (or attempting to) criticisms/questions about his product. I say keep it going! More screenshots, more discussion. This is what we come here for.



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Old 07-13-2001, 10:47 AM
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ericbee,

I have to say you come off as a man on a crusade. There is a strident tone in your posts that borders on zealotry (or giving the impression of zealotry) that is really hurting your arguments integrity.

If you conceded the one or two points that seem to be fairly well laid out and stuck to your guns on those that you have the best footing on, your opinions/statements would come through with more believability.

The one point - 72Hz - seems very clear. 72Hz has the benefit of producing a much better pull down than 60hz. While the NR may not do it, it is important as these products are in the same price range. To ignore it because the NR does 60hz would be like constraining the NR to a DVDO iScans feature/spec set just to "keep things fair" in a comparison of them. I know these are not in the same price range, but the idea of having to factor out to the lowest common between all units is what I'm getting at.

Good thread overall though http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
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Old 07-13-2001, 10:48 AM
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let me try to clarify the ericbee/rejhon discussion:

Ericbee's position: he has the nr for use with plasma, running at 1280x720, 60hz. he has posted a photo taken of his rig displaying the 6.75mhz pattern from Avia, and is looks to be quite defined. he has also viewed a rock on someone else's setup and claims the resolution and other features were inferior to his nr, (we don't know the rock date of issue or the firmware version, but assume it pre-dates v2.*) he is trying to direct all his comparisons to the native rate and is referring to tommyboy's findings as well. Keep in mind that tommyboy had a different nr (the dila version) which had its own idiosyncratic behaviour, not indicative of the rest of the nr line and tommyboy had the pre-v2.* rock.

Rejhon: his comments about faroudja are based on his experience with the 3000 and 5000; admittedly, he hasn't seen the nr and most of his comments about the 6.75mhz test pattern with respect to f are based on these experiences or tk chang's post of the faroudja 3000 test image. his comments about the rock performance are based on either/or both the rock with v 2.* or the rock plus, with v2.*, neither of which have been reported on by ericbee or tommyboy.

What is required to settle this is an objective comparison of what ericbee has and the rock (best version) set to the same output resolution and refresh rate. other matters of general interest (such as what happens at different refresh rates, the advantages of variable output resolution, etc.) but not relevant to the above comparison, should be seen as other matters.

clear?

jlm

[This message has been edited by jlm (edited 07-13-2001).]

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Old 07-13-2001, 12:49 PM
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EricBee- Your avatar picture is a clear indication of your current state and overall attitude.
Mark- your avatar picture is calm, good natured, also an indication of overall attitude.
Just an observation......

Mblank- take your sour grapes to another vineyard- you're spoiling the whole crop.

A woman is weeping over shadows on a screen, a man gets excited over ink on a page, a child is frightened over words in a book-
The mind gets caught up in the unreal and people become identified with it. But its power is such that it rules the world.
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Old 07-13-2001, 12:59 PM
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p.s. No disrespect meant. I ask only because you think it proper to judge people based on their picture.

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Old 07-13-2001, 02:47 PM
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Wow
I was having a pretty crappy day untill I read
mblank's last reply.Sorry Barking Art that was just too
damn funny http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
Ok my ribs are hurting now
L8TR
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Old 07-13-2001, 04:28 PM
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You're buying a car for $30K. One has a maximum speed of 100 mph and gets 40 mpg, another 130 mph and 20 mpg. Which car is better? To categorically say, or imply that one is objectively better than the other without full disclosure of the criteria of the comparison is meaningless. And there's no accounting for subjective opinion--everyone can reach their own.

Ignoring the fact that the Rock has features that the Faroudja doesn't, and vice versa, when declaring an overall "winner" is ludicrous. Yeah, a NR might beat a Rock in one instance (DCDi versus ClearMatrix de-interlacing at 60Hz), but there will the Rock will beat the Faroudja in other specific areas.

Mark: Your posts are well-balanced and reasoned. Which one is better depends on the criteria (and it's importance) one would associate with the evaluation. It is important to look at the whole package--TAW's marketing and public relations faux pax's notwithstanding. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif

Ericbee: Simply repeating known problems that have been fixed with the Rock is clearly misleading, especially since you don't disclose in the same post the particulars of how and when you observed this and reached this conclusion.

I see no reason to close the thread as there is lots of useful information here.
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Old 07-13-2001, 05:06 PM
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http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/004334.html
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum23/HTML/001242.html
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum23/HTML/000081.html

I think these three threads explain it all pretty clearly.


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Old 07-13-2001, 09:24 PM
 
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I am finished with this thread. I hope that others who have read it can read between the lines and see why I no longer wish to participate. Not only do my requests go unanswered but, the facts get twisted and comments become misinterpreted. Anyone reading, please read the above posts and see if I ever asked the Rock to be compared to anything other than the Faroudja NR. Only when comments like "but in 72mhz" did I ever even suggest the Rock compare apples to apples and use a Faroudja scaler that was capable of doing 72mhz. I stand firm again on the fact that the Rock when compared to the cheapest scaler in the Faroudja lineup, the NR, cannot better it in a single category. Once again, no answers, no replies to the questons and more shuckin' and jivin'. If the question ever gets answered I will return, otherwise, I'm outta this thread.
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Old 07-14-2001, 07:15 AM
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WOW!!!!

What a thread!

It is really interesting to read these comments.

I have a Rock and a DILA/ISCO, which makes a killer combination for flexibility of input and output aspect ratios. Maybe the FNR can do the same; I don't know.

However, I think the concept expressed here of fixing a single refresh rate and making all comparisons to that single rate (eg both FNR and Rock @60 hz since that's all the FNR can do) is not valid at all.

The Rock lets me use other refresh rates than 60 hz with my DILA to optimize the picture quality, and I can tell you that the 72 is MUCH MUCH better than 60 hz in color saturation--approaching the 3-d look--and the 75 is visibly better than the 72 but not by as great a margin.

To suggest that when comparing the Rock and FNR they should both be compared at 60 hz is simply ludicrous. Different display devices will look better at different refresh rates--I am no scaler guru like Mark and Tommyboy2 etc, but even to me the difference is truly like night and day using 60 vs 75 on my DILA.

To further the car analogy, why would one compare two sports cars but force them to wear the same tires when they differ in suspension geometry, weight, etc? This refresh rate thing is simply a non-issue in my book......

May I second the comment that scalers should be compared at their BEST settings to get a true comparison of capability? "Put your best foot forward" should rule the comparisons in this forum.

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Old 07-14-2001, 07:49 AM
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think of it this way:

plasma users may be forced to use 60hz only (like ericbee) and they want to know if the nr or the rock will perform better in that circumstance. this was the intent of ericbee's statements.

all the other features the rock can provide that cannot apply in this circumstance are irrelevant to this question.

to further your car analogy: eric wants to know whether a bmw or a renault le car will perform better in sports car racing; so what relevance is there to talk about the renault enduro machine in this context?

jlm

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Old 07-14-2001, 08:11 AM
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Yes, now I see his point. So the conclusion of such a test would be relevant for plasma screen owners only. Dila users will want to test at a single resolution but allow for changes in refresh rates. CRT owners will want to allow for both to be optimized.


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Old 07-14-2001, 02:35 PM
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jlm and Alex: Exactly! Ericbee's conclusions are limited in scope to a very specific set of parameters. However, his posts imply more general applicability. I would guess that there are more projectors out there than Plasma's in home theater applications.
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Old 07-14-2001, 07:58 PM
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Regretably, I feel that fairness is the issue here. Let's see, one camp feels that only certain parameters should be compared tit for tat; the other camp says that the full functionality of the scaler should be compared, tit for tat.

Now, I want to compare a 2001 Ford Escort to a 2001 Lexus whatever. Gee, I should do it on a per function basis.

Oh, the Escort is better! I don't think so....


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Old 07-14-2001, 09:15 PM
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I don't understand the emotion in this thread. I don't own 99% plus of al audio/video stuff but don't feel inspired to impress anyone else with my selection. Why is this so important to some of our members? Art
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Old 07-14-2001, 10:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Can a specific NR be purchased so that is will refresh at 72 Hz?

Because if it can, then I think many are missing the point. If the NR looks better than the Rock at 60Hz, you might reasonably expect that it would also look better at 72. Of course we'd want to test this.

The fact that a Rock out of the box can change resolution and refresh is interesting, but only to those who plan to change displays often.

--Les
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Old 07-14-2001, 10:07 PM
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I think this 6.75MHz pattern has enough talk already. The ability to show it or not is not the only measurement of good picture quality. Mark has said it best in another thread as quoted below:

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Rejhon:
>>"My experience of the real world is that those dvd player/processor combo that does show the 6.75MHz pattern does not necessarily or automatically produce a better picture than the combo that does not."

That is correct in that the 6.75 Mhz pattern is only one of the many measuring sticks of image quality. There is more to it than just this, and other characteristics of the image that may be better.
My approach has alway been the real picture on the screen that matters most. Come to think of it, our money spent on the HT is for enjoyment of the programmes. I note that somewhere in this thread pictures I took of the F3K were mentioned. I hope that would provide a reference for measurement of comparative performance, don't just look at the 6.75MHz alone. Compare these pictures from Toy Story and Jurassic Park with those of your images on the screen. Look for the other attributes such as colour, details, smoothness, video noise, contrast, dynamics etc. etc. from an overall approach.

I have the opportunity of demoing a NR soon so I plan to do a series of photos in my HT like I did with the F3K. That I hope will be able to have some valid comparison while every other thing being equal. My friend has a Vigatec which is supposed to be of the latest upgrade. I'll try to borrow it for a few days and do a photo series too. Too bad we don't have a Rock in Hong Kong yet.


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Old 07-15-2001, 01:04 PM
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Sorry....This thread became messed up and I had to restore it from last night back up. If you posted after the above post, your post was lost and you will need to re-post.

Thanks


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Old 07-15-2001, 01:16 PM
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Why buy the Rock when you can get the LEEZA for 3k?
At least that's what they said it would cost in the power buy but that thread disappeared.
I'm hoping it will still happen. I guess we will know, as we get closer to the shipping date.


Every time they add a new feature or fix something in the Rock they end up having to introduce a new model that cost more.
By time they add SDI it will be a 6k box.
I do not mean to pick on the Rock but when it was first shipped they said their box was truly future proof while others that made that claim were not and also bragged about it being the only one to have its scaling upgraded via Internet. Who cares when they need a new model every month just to fix everything else that is wrong with it?

The LEEZA at 4k full retail already has SDI.
The LEEZA also has more inputs.

That's the one I'm waiting for. I think once the LEEZA hits that will be the end of the Rock.
That's of course if it measures up to its expectations.

I think TAW will survive but will have to reduce their price.



[This message has been edited by itsme (edited 07-15-2001).]
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Old 07-15-2001, 02:03 PM
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Yes, the Rock seems to be in a peculiar position these days. What started out as a completely upgradable and relatively inexpensive scaler turns out to be an expensive, moving target.

- Marc
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Old 07-15-2001, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
What started out as a completely upgradable and relatively inexpensive scaler turns out to be an expensive, moving target.
Well, it is upgradeable so I don't see your point? And I only spent $3,000. for a scaler that performs as well as models costing upwards of $15,000. Even at $5k it's still $10k cheaper. You have to remember that the term "relatively inexpensive" is just that, "relative".

Some people on this forum consider a 1 meter length of speaker cable costing $3,000. reasonable. Inexpensive is in the wallet of the beholder.http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif



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Old 07-15-2001, 05:31 PM
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Rock solid competition is a great thing, so if you don't want to buy a Rock just purchase the Leeza.
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Old 07-15-2001, 08:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Rock solid competition is a great thing, so if you don't want to buy a Rock just purchase the Leeza.
____________________________________________________________

We may just do that. GF.

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Old 07-15-2001, 09:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Has anyone actually seen a Leeza?

--Les
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Old 07-15-2001, 11:45 PM
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Rags: >>Regretably, I feel that fairness is the issue here.

I think it's less about fairness, but more about the validity/applicability of any conclusion and what are the criteria/circumstances supporting it. In your example, the Escort could very well be "better." The question is: Better at what exactly?

Les: The fact that a Rock out of the box can change resolution and refresh is interesting, but only to those who plan to change displays often.

Not necessarily so. For those who have CRT projectors, you can run video material at 60Hz, and film-based stuff at 72Hz refresh on the Rock. There is a noticable advantage to doing this.

There is plenty of evidence that suggests the Rock may not be as suited to plasma displays. It's another thing altogether to keep bringing up Rock anomalies that have since been fixed. To draw a general conclusion, or allude to the Rock as an inferior scaler to it's competition while ignoring the advantages of the Rock when convenient is clear bias.

I think the reason why tommyboy's review is much appreciated is that he points out the strengths and weaknesses of the scalers in question without declaring a winner. They are all winners, and it depends on your priorities and setup.

TK: Photos are interesting, but are notoriously unreliable for making any valid conclusions. Each digital camera has it's own color space/bias and color balance/temperature settings. Some of the many variables include things like JPEG color corruption, lens quality, camera quality, CCD quality, exposure, focus, display setup quality, et al. This all makes it impossible to draw any real objective conclusions based on the photos themselves.

I think what you're doing is the best thing to do. Compare the scalers in your own setup. Look for some of the anomalies described in the reviews. Decide on one based on what you can afford, and what you can live with. None of these products are perfect.

Really, if we all just keep waiting long enough, we should be able to get a TeraNex-equivalent scaler for $1,000! There's one advantage to the Rock that I really appreciate--in the short two months or so that I've had it, it's performance has been seriously improved with simple one-click updates downloaded from a web site. And their engineering staff is truly responsive to suggestions.

[This message has been edited by Rice Rocket (edited 07-16-2001).]
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Old 07-16-2001, 03:45 AM
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yesterday a few posts were lost. in particular one from oferlaor discussing his experiences with the rock and plasma which ended in returning the rock.

does anyone know if the rock is fully functional with plasma?
Ofer and my experience say no, Phil in May indicated he had not optimized the Rock with plasma and was not recommending it, but what about now, in July?

Mark Rejhon, can you inform us?

jlm

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Old 07-16-2001, 05:58 AM
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FYI, changing display resolutions is valuable for crt owners. The way to get maximum brightness (without blooming) on a crt is to set different resolutions for different aspect ratios.

As an example, if your crt's "sweet spot" for a 4:3 display is 1200 scan lines, and you are displaying a movie with a 2:35 aspect ratio, you want to set the scaler's resolution to 680 lines and vertically "stretch" the image to be full frame. Then on the crt you want to "squeeze" the image back to its correct aspect ratio.

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Alex

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Old 07-16-2001, 08:13 AM
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ITSME,
I am very anxious to see a Leeza. Where did you see the one that made you such a fan? Did you get a chance to put it through its paces? Did you get to try it on different displays and with different sorts of inputs? Please let me know where and when you handled the thing so I can arrange such a showing. Art
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Old 07-16-2001, 08:52 AM
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aren't leeza's still vaporware?

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