Poor man's SDI - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 744 Old 05-30-2006, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dahester
When I was probing around the Toshiba HD-A1 I spotted the HD video bus required for HD-SDI. There are 20+ resistors grouped near the Broadcom video decoder that carry the video data; I don't recall if it had embedded SAV and EAV, but it looks possible to add HD-SDI (perhaps with some Altera glue logic).
That would be an interesting test of the AACS' enforcement mechanisms if the first player on the market were cracked so easily.
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post #722 of 744 Old 05-30-2006, 01:01 PM
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I've been considering sending my HD-A1 to JVB Digital for them to "play with" although I don't have anything to input a HD-SDI signal to currently.

OTOH, if HDMI is implemented properly, which it's not currently on these players but supposedly can be fixed with firmware, is HD-SDI going to provide much advantage, copyright issues aside?
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post #723 of 744 Old 05-30-2006, 05:14 PM
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Hi,

My thinking is to add the serializer(LMH0031) to my 6000 sat reciever and also to the HD DVD and then have a LMH0030/DAC with RGBHV outputs so I can feed my CRT. The chip prices are very reasonable, I think they are about $25 each maybe alittle more depending on where you get them I suppose. Of course if you want eval boards then it'll be alot more expensive. I'd be game to spend some cash if someone wants to get something going. I'm not sure what kind of external startup logic these chipsets require etc., but I'm sure who ever did the SD SDI wouldn't have to much trouble doing this chipset.

Walter
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post #724 of 744 Old 05-30-2006, 09:22 PM
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The signals gotta be in there somewhere!

Wasnt there a thread somewhere in here saying that the new HDDVD Players will not be implementing the flags necessary for HDCP?

Speaking of a poor mans SDI! I just came across an SDI board and already have a older panasonic DVD-C220D 5 disk player...Does anyone know if the Decoder in this box will accept am SDI kit? (I still haven't opened the DVD player to see which chip it does have...but I would thing that for feeding an SDI into my scaler should be OK with an old player like this!)

Does anyone know?

Thanks in advance


Martin
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post #725 of 744 Old 05-31-2006, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie
Now is the 74.25mhz clock present on the board? Our DVD department has one of these players. Perhaps engineering need to "borrow it" for a few days. :D
Yes, I specifically located the 74.25 MHz (or is it 74.17 MHz?) clock, which was my clue that I had located the HD video bus. The signals nearby were toggling based off that clock. The beauty of it is the location- the signals can be tapped off resistors that are on the main decoding board, which is easily probed.

Because the HD-A1 is based on a PC architecture, I'm sure that hacks are inevitable.

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post #726 of 744 Old 05-31-2006, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prehjan
The signals gotta be in there somewhere!

Martin
Yes, of course unencrypted video does exist. The question is can you access it? HDCP rules say no. It can't be an open buss that is easily soldered to. At a minimum I would think it would have to be an inner PC board layer covered with ground and power planes.

Ideally you would have an ASIC that takes in the raw data from the disk and outputs DVI/HDMI and either analog component or a seperate video data buss feeding DACs that can be downrezzed. In addition to satisfying HDCP, this is also the most prudent approach for mass production. The first products may in fact be made up with chip sets and it's possible some HDCP requirements were waved on first generation products. But if so it's not going to continue.

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post #727 of 744 Old 05-31-2006, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie
it's possible some HDCP requirements were waved on first generation products.
As an HD-A1 owner, I am less concerned about the HDCP requirements, than I am about the AACS requirements. If this is a "design flaw" that allows video over an open bus, then the AACS should be able to, at its discretion, require all future HD-DVD content not to play on the HD-A1. What am I missing here? I understand why HD-SDI is desirable from a technical standpoint given the issues with the HD-A1, but why tempt the nuclear option?

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post #728 of 744 Old 05-31-2006, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k
As an HD-A1 owner, I am less concerned about the HDCP requirements, than I am about the AACS requirements. If this is a "design flaw" that allows video over an open bus, then the AACS should be able to, at its discretion, require all future HD-DVD content not to play on the HD-A1. What am I missing here? I understand why HD-SDI is desirable from a technical standpoint given the issues with the HD-A1, but why tempt the nuclear option?

Later,
Bill
You mean they shutting down a whole class of machines because someone somewhere might have added a work around on _his_ machine. Well lets bring that one to a court fast as possible needs to be 'discussed' anyway.

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post #729 of 744 Old 05-31-2006, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo
You mean they shutting down a whole class of machines because someone somewhere might have added a work around on _his_ machine. Well lets bring that one to a court fast as possible needs to be 'discussed' anyway.

Daniel.
Not "might", but "has". Thus, the AACS' rights, as I understand them, do not come into play until a design has been compromised. If one person can successfully tap the digital output, then my understanding is that this is sufficient for the AACS to "nuke" that model/design. Toshiba would also pay an $8mm penalty, as I understand it, but that would pale in comparison to the damage a recall would do to HD-DVD.

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post #730 of 744 Old 05-31-2006, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k
Not "might", but "has". Thus, the AACS' rights, as I understand them, do not come into play until a design has been compromised. If one person can successfully tap the digital output, then my understanding is that this is sufficient for the AACS to "nuke" that model/design. Toshiba would also pay an $8mm penalty, as I understand it, but that would pale in comparison to the damage a recall would do to HD-DVD.

Later,
Bill
Well they can put all kinds of things in a license but we still have to see if its legal around the world. Also as you pointed out we also still have a court of buyers who might get a little upset if they start sending out killcodes last time sony got into drm trouble it was no fun for them.

Its a pity they allways seem to anger the people who pay for content or in this case just want a better 'feed' to enjoy their movies more. We at times own 4 or 5 copies of the same content and still we seem to be on their bad side...

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post #731 of 744 Old 05-31-2006, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k
Not "might", but "has". Thus, the AACS' rights, as I understand them, do not come into play until a design has been compromised. If one person can successfully tap the digital output, then my understanding is that this is sufficient for the AACS to "nuke" that model/design. Toshiba would also pay an $8mm penalty, as I understand it, but that would pale in comparison to the damage a recall would do to HD-DVD.

Later,
Bill
I think we are all jumping to conclusions here. All the initial poster did was discover what looks like a 20bit video data buss. I concur that 20bit (10bitY and 10bit pB/pR) is in fact a well utilized format internal to professional equipment.

But until somebody looks at the data with a logic analyzer we can't be sure it's even video data let alone unencrypted video data.

Personally I doubt even these first generation products would be allowed to circumvent this most basic protection feature. Even with an exposed buss, a BGA package, blind vias, and intraboard layers is all taht's needed to make the buss inaccessable.

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post #732 of 744 Old 05-31-2006, 11:45 AM
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Glimmie, I'm pretty confident this bus is standard HD video; it may not quite be SMPTE 292 ready, but it had all the trappings of HD video. It's doubtful they would encrypt the bus. Qualitatively, I did not see bus activity that was uncorrelated with the video (i.e. pausing the HD-DVD would cause signals on the bus to take on a static pattern).

In the interest of time-to-market, Toshiba was probably granted a waiver on the robustness rules. This simple fact is the HD-A1 looks and feels like a test mule. In future revisions they may cost reduce the design, hide video buses, etc.

Unfortunately I have 'permanently' installed the HD-A1 in my system (a very tedious task), so I don't plan to peel the lid off again for further investigation. I will leave that to someone else on the forum. FYI, I also found plenty of exposed audio signals, i.e. one signal I saw was clearly SPDIF.

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post #733 of 744 Old 07-05-2006, 12:39 AM
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Hi Folks,

I have 3 Sony DVP-CX777ES jukeboxes I want to SDI mod. I'm pretty decent at soldering, not too sure about micro soldering but I can try.

Can someone point me in the right direction to get what I need to do the mods myself? Is pixelmagic the place everyone is getting their SDI mod boards from? Is everyone getting the BT656Pro SDI Mod. Kit? Where do I get the instructions for the Sony DVP-CX777ES?

Should I purchase a certain solder gun and solder for this?

Thanks
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post #734 of 744 Old 07-05-2006, 02:07 AM
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No one that I'm aware of, sells anything like a kit for the 777ES for doing a SDI mod on them. So you probably will need to trace down a good location for a connection to the correct pins of the MPEG decoder chip on the circuit board, to come up with the proper connections.

You may want to contact this forum member in this thread, bblue. As it looks like he has done them and knows the best place to make the connections.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7512082
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post #735 of 744 Old 07-05-2006, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SandmanX
Hi Folks,

I have 3 Sony DVP-CX777ES jukeboxes I want to SDI mod. I'm pretty decent at soldering, not too sure about micro soldering but I can try.

Can someone point me in the right direction to get what I need to do the mods myself? Is pixelmagic the place everyone is getting their SDI mod boards from? Is everyone getting the BT656Pro SDI Mod. Kit? Where do I get the instructions for the Sony DVP-CX777ES?

Should I purchase a certain solder gun and solder for this?

Thanks
Ruben
This company does them...

http://www.jvb.nl/jvb.asp?cur=1&leve...itle&title=187

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post #736 of 744 Old 07-05-2006, 02:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo
Thanks for the responses, I'm not looking for a company to do the upgrade but http://www.msbtech.com/products/sdi.php is in the US and they do SDI upgrades for allot less.

I just want to do the SDI mod myself to save the headache of removing 1100 of my DVDs from the jukeboxes and shipping 3 jukeboxes from FL to CA and back.

Thanks
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post #737 of 744 Old 07-05-2006, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SandmanX
Thanks for the responses, I'm not looking for a company to do the upgrade but http://www.msbtech.com/products/sdi.php is in the US and they do SDI upgrades for allot less.

I just want to do the SDI mod myself to save the headache of removing 1100 of my DVDs from the jukeboxes and shipping 3 jukeboxes from FL to CA and back.

Thanks
Ruben
jvb also has a office/workplace in the usa. It was not clear to me you really wanted todo it yourself you sounded a bit doubtfull on that :)

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post #738 of 744 Old 09-23-2006, 04:45 AM
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I'm searching for the pin assignments for this DSP by Texas Instruments.

It's used in several PC satellite cards and digital setup boxes.

In a later revision it changed it's name from TMX320AV7110GFN to TMS320AV7110GFN.

I already have the datasheet, but it doesn't have neither the chip's pin layout nor the pin's name (which one does what).

I already know from the datasheet that it does have the pins for digital output of component 8-bit Cb/Y/Cr/Y 4:2:2 @ 27MHz, which is what I need for the SDI mod.

Could anyone help find the missing information?

Btw, how would I know if it's BT656 or BT601?
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post #739 of 744 Old 09-26-2006, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Speculum
Btw, how would I know if it's BT656 or BT601?
You really need a logic analyzer to determine that. It will be clear as day there. You can do it with a 2 channel scope as the EAV/SAV is 00 and FF so it will stand out. You will need to find H SYNC though for the scope to lock to. You can't lock to the 27mhz clock as you don't have any line or frame reference point. [Hint, that's what EAV/SAV is for in the first place. It's sync information embedded in the data stream.] A logic analyzer get's around this limitation because it can store many clock samples in a deep buffer.

Also note that codes 00 and FF are not legal in 601/656 video. With that in mind you could build a simple EAV/SAV detector with two 74HC688 IC's. Wire the B side of one all low and the B side of the other all high. Apply the data buss to the A side of both comparator chips. Equality on should occur on both comparator chips if it's bt656. Neither comparator should show equality for bt601.

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post #740 of 744 Old 09-26-2006, 11:28 PM
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Is there any diagram I could reference to?

Where would Hsync be embedded to?
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post #741 of 744 Old 09-27-2006, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Speculum
Is there any diagram I could reference to?

Where would Hsync be embedded to?
If the stream is not bt656 then there must be Hsync somewhere on the board. There really is no generic "how to" guide for these SDI mods. Some have published instructions for specific models but if your device is not one of those, you have to do the research and reverse engineering. A service manual may help but often they treat the boards as a single part as most shops can't repair them anyway.

IMPO, may of these mods are working by pure luck. There are many electrical engineering issues at play here which can result in either a non working SDI mode or a mod that causes the player's video outputs not to work. Few people have the test equipment to trouble shoot these parts. Things like load capacitance, inductance of the lead to the SDI board. For example I had destructive ringing on the clock line of my Panasonic RP56 SDI mod. Using a scope I quenched it with a 10pf cap onthe SDI board. I think I published that somewhere in this thread and I'll bet many copied it. But who says 10pf is the proper value in another case where the wires may be longer or dressed differently. You really need a scope and the knowledge of what you are lookign at. Still the success rate reported here is very good.

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post #742 of 744 Old 10-01-2006, 04:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie
If the stream is not bt656 then there must be Hsync somewhere on the board. There really is no generic "how to" guide for these SDI mods. Some have published instructions for specific models but if your device is not one of those, you have to do the research and reverse engineering. A service manual may help but often they treat the boards as a single part as most shops can't repair them anyway.

IMPO, may of these mods are working by pure luck. There are many electrical engineering issues at play here which can result in either a non working SDI mode or a mod that causes the player's video outputs not to work. Few people have the test equipment to trouble shoot these parts. Things like load capacitance, inductance of the lead to the SDI board. For example I had destructive ringing on the clock line of my Panasonic RP56 SDI mod. Using a scope I quenched it with a 10pf cap onthe SDI board. I think I published that somewhere in this thread and I'll bet many copied it. But who says 10pf is the proper value in another case where the wires may be longer or dressed differently. You really need a scope and the knowledge of what you are lookign at. Still the success rate reported here is very good.
I've been investigating other ways to do the mod.

Instead of trying to find out the pin assignments for the Texas DSP, I've been looking at the other chips available in the PCB.

I also have a Philips SAA7146A H (the 160 pin version), and I've been looking at the datasheet already (finally, a proper one with the pin numbering!).

Are there other mods that have used this chip?

Can you help me by pinpoiting what signals do I need to pick up?
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post #743 of 744 Old 12-02-2006, 01:14 PM
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I'm trying to ad SDI to a Pioneer Elite DVL 91. I was wondering if anyone has done this? I'm not sure where to begin. I think i located the data pins for the connectionto the sdi board on the board that has the S-video and composite video outputs on it, and its not located on the same board as where i think the mpeg II chip is....can anyone help? I'll try to take some pics of the boards so maybe someone can push me in the right direction.

Athanasios
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post #744 of 744 Old 12-05-2006, 10:35 AM
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Here is a link to the pioneer Service manual. i'm not sure where to hook up the SDI wires . i was looking at Connector CN401 on page 33 of the manual, the video signal route goes from there to a processor( page 32) then to a comb filter. but this is on a differnet board than the mpeg2 chip ( page 22).

Also there is a ROM data signal on the mpeg2 page(21/22). Is that the raw data signal before it goes in to the LSI chip then the mpeg2 chip? Could i hook up to that signal before it goes in to either chip? That signal comes from IC301 chip on page 18, its on the right hand side of the page that chip had a clk,dvdd,d8(MSB),D7...D1(LSB) pins which output to RD1...RD8which becomes the ROM data that goes into the LSI chip.
the original signal route to that chip is an RF which i beleive coms from the dvd laser.

My eyes are begining to bug out on me trying to find the best hook up location and i'm new at this so not sure what the letters mean on the boards and if i'm even close ! But it is fun!

Any help would be great! here is a link to the service manual PDF I made from my iDisc...

http://homepage.mac.com/nashou.66/Pi...eSharing5.html

Thanks Athanasios
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