HDCP seperate box ? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 215 Old 07-21-2005, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
Yes Art, but I don't know what you are saying. Are you saying as others had that these could be used to create devices, or just that they exist so what is the big deal? They are "OK" because they don't make the decrypted analog signal available outside of the device. Same reason why and HDCP compliant input card for a G90 or Marquee is "OK".

Dave
Dave,
My point is that there are legitimate production devices that convert to analog inside. I mean really, if a pirate wants the signal there it is. Yea ,a few bucks relatively speaking but it just seems that we are ignoring the elephant in the room.

We are acting as though this box or that box is bad or doomed when these other "boxes" exist . Will their keys be revoked if they get used for illegitimate purposes or not because they weren't built for illegitimate purposes.

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post #92 of 215 Old 07-21-2005, 11:21 AM
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Although I understand your point, I believe the analogy is a poor one. They are substantitively different. All I want to do is use the display device of my choice with the player and media I purchase. I don't want to steal anything or do anything illegal with the content. In the Napster example, they were stealing. I'm not advocating stealing.
That sounds an awful lot like the language used by Napster defenders: that there are lots of useful and legal uses for Napster. Now of course, I know your intentions are entirely legal, but again, the Napster case has proven that Hollywood cannot, in fact, trust society at large to respect their copyrights.

But you and others have said something I entirely support: that you are voting with your dollars. More power to you. As I've said, I think the DMCA should be repealed so that issues such as these can be decided entirely within the marketplace without government intervention. Hollywood does not need the government's help to keep our paws off their content. Technical copy protection measures are rapidly maturing, and consumers are wising up to what measures they're willing to accept and what they're not.

I know you may think the average consumer is apathetic, but I'm not sure I agree. They are more than willing to accept the copy protection measures built into iTunes---even people who before then were content to steal music off of Napster or Kazaa. And in contrast, the Divx pay-per-view DVD model failed big-time. DVD-Audio and SACD both failed; could that in part have been due to a lack of flexibility in the format?

Now where they are apathetic is basically when you ask them to think altruistically. If their displays are HDCP compliant, or they have no need for HDCP for other reasons, then they're not going to care if you're having trouble. And since there isn't really an example yet of a source device that outputs digital only, they really don't need to care, because there's always the component inputs.

It will be interesting to see how things change if HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray are digital out only.

Michael
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post #93 of 215 Old 07-21-2005, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin
we have recommended that if you are looking for a new display device, you choose one that is HDCP compliant
Good advice, but what about the folks like Art and I that prefer to watch films on a CRT projector? I'm not too happy about being driven to what I perceive and an inferior picture just to get HD on a disc.

Dave
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post #94 of 215 Old 07-21-2005, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fr8flyr
Kei,
I know the device will work with PC-DVI from a video card but what about DVI from an HDCP compliant device such as an up scaling DVD player?

Earl
Earl,

I was testing with an HDCP based DVD Player. Connected directly to a PC monitor via DVI, the HDCP incompatibility static, but with the DVI to VGA converter in-line, I get picture at both 720p and 1080i. Unfortunately, the Samsung is the only DVD player I have tried so far.

I also tested with a PC video card sending out a 1920x1200 desktop and I get a perfect desktop image, albeit not as sharp as with straight DVI but thats to be expected on any analog input.

Best news is the MSRP is $199.
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post #95 of 215 Old 07-21-2005, 02:27 PM
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Hi All,

I've been reading the debate with great interest, as I have a Samsung HLN series DLP and a Sony CRT PJ - certain that the Sony is non-HDCP and not sure about the DLP.

Anyway, came across this device

http://www.jvbdigital.com/jvb.asp?cu...itle&title=241

So it would seem that "HDCP filters" are already starting to pop up.

Now a member of the Marquee Maniacs Club
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post #96 of 215 Old 07-21-2005, 02:37 PM
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Curious as to why the device above is designated specifically for the Denon DVD-1910. If it works on that model, it should work on any HDCP compliant player.
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post #97 of 215 Old 07-21-2005, 03:58 PM
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Well, the way I read their description, it looks like it is somehow the player itself is making an internal change. My guess is that there is some special EDID code that causes the Denon to turn off HDCP. Looks like the Denon built a back door into their player.

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post #98 of 215 Old 07-21-2005, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kei Clark
Curious as to why the device above is designated specifically for the Denon DVD-1910. If it works on that model, it should work on any HDCP compliant player.
Maybe there's some feature in the 1910 that if a certain condition is met the HDCP is disabled, and that device does it? Who knows.
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post #99 of 215 Old 07-21-2005, 07:54 PM
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Yeah, that's my guess. I'm guessing that a specific EDID response disables HDCP.

Michael
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post #100 of 215 Old 07-22-2005, 02:28 PM
 
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I would like to once again display my ignorance. What is EDID?
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post #101 of 215 Old 07-22-2005, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan halvorson
I would like to once again display my ignorance. What is EDID?
From wikipedia,
Extended Display Identification Data "is a data structure provided by a computer display to describe its capabilities to a graphics card. It is what enables a modern personal computer to know what kind of monitor is connected. EDID is defined by a standard published by the Video Electronics Standards Association (VESA). The EDID includes manufacturer name, product type, phosphor or filter type, timings supported by the display, display size, luminance data and (for digital displays only) pixel mapping data."
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post #102 of 215 Old 07-22-2005, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carled
Maybe there's some feature in the 1910 that if a certain condition is met the HDCP is disabled, and that device does it? Who knows.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant
Yeah, that's my guess. I'm guessing that a specific EDID response disables HDCP.
There are 2 possibilities -
1. Denon disables HDCP because the dongle knows "specific EDID sequence" and lets Denon know.
2. Dongle decrypts and never encrypts by detecting Denon 1910.

First of all both cases require a microcontroller to detect or know "specific EDID" which I doubt.

First case is not possible because that would be a hole in Denon's decryption and Denon will be in deep trouble should this be discovered by evil people.
Second case leaves a possibility of spoofing. You can just read Denon's EDID and copy it to your device's EDID Eeprom and pretend to be Denon. This will , in most cases, require some soldering but since EDID eeprom is read only.

I am leaning towards either second case and/or what Kei said- if it decrypts one device - it should do all of them . And Denon 1910 only is just a buzzword .

My 2 cents - humor me if I am wrong.
Cheers,
-B
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post #103 of 215 Old 07-22-2005, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kei Clark
Curious as to why the device above is designated specifically for the Denon DVD-1910. If it works on that model, it should work on any HDCP compliant player.
May be 1910 is one of the few DVDPs with DVI-HDCP output. I suspect that the device will work with other Denons with DVI-HDCP out as well ... or even any HDMI out with another HDMI->DVI converter ... just guessing
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post #104 of 215 Old 07-22-2005, 07:01 PM
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Well, someone ought to test your theory, bubble! If it works it would be nice to have a second supplier.

Michael
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post #105 of 215 Old 07-23-2005, 04:52 AM
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I called JVB and spoke to them about this device. Whilst I could not ascertain how it does what it does, I was told that it would ONLY work with the 1910.

I asked about one for my 5900 and he said that they are looking at other players.

Regards

Paul
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post #106 of 215 Old 07-24-2005, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant
Well, someone ought to test your theory, bubble! If it works it would be nice to have a second supplier.
I would if I had the 1910 [ though I am soo tempted].
Someone else wants to experiment?

Digione,
I dont think JVB will tell you more than what published on their web site. I am just curious if they have an agreement/permission with/from Denon on this.

Cheers,
-B
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post #107 of 215 Old 07-25-2005, 05:00 AM
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Excuse me for showing my ignorance, but what HDCP encrypted DVD is available so that one could test the filter? I thought the whole point was to "bypass" HDCP so one could watch HD-DVD (not SD on an upscaling player) on an analog HDTV display :confused:

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post #108 of 215 Old 07-25-2005, 05:21 AM
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ALL DVDs are HDCP encrypted aren't they?
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post #109 of 215 Old 07-25-2005, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sknight1
Excuse me for showing my ignorance, but what HDCP encrypted DVD is available so that one could test the filter? I thought the whole point was to "bypass" HDCP so one could watch HD-DVD (not SD on an upscaling player) on an analog HDTV display :confused:
Quote:
Originally Posted by edfowler
ALL DVDs are HDCP encrypted aren't they?
HDCP isn't an encryption method for the sourse, it's encryption for the transmission (ie, down the DVI/HDMI cables), of a similar vein to Macrovision. You don't get DVDs which have HDCP protection 'on them'. The encryption on the DVD itself is called CCS, and the one for HD-DVD and [probably] Blu-ray is called AACS.

Normally upsampling DVD players will either put HDCP protection on the DVI/HDMI output if the DVD is copy protected, or will put it onto all material, regardless of whether it's copy protected or not. That is totally DVD player specific.

The black boxes serve not only to allow watching protected HD material on a non-HDCP display, but for DVD players with DVI or HDMI outs, too. Of course, SDI doesn't have HDCP, so you could just use that instead of DVI/HDMI for the same effect.
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post #110 of 215 Old 07-25-2005, 08:33 AM
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Thanks! I wasn't aware they used HDCP on the HMDI/DVI connectors on a SD player...... I thought they just restricted higher resolutions on the analog outs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carled
Of course, SDI doesn't have HDCP, so you could just use that instead of DVI/HDMI for the same effect.
So in theory if you have a SDI-modded HD-DVD player, connect it to a SDI-capable scaler, and then take the analog output from the scaler to an analog HDTV; you could watch 1080i (HD-DVDs)?

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post #111 of 215 Old 07-25-2005, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by sknight1
So in theory if you have a SDI-modded HD-DVD player, connect it to a SDI-capable scaler, and then take the analog output from the scaler to an analog HDTV; you could watch 1080i (HD-DVDs)?
Basically correct (you'd need HD-SDI on both the player and scaler). You have to guess for yourself whether or not a HD-SDI mod to any HD-DVD player will be available.
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post #112 of 215 Old 07-25-2005, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by japanesegeek
Basically correct (you'd need HD-SDI on both the player and scaler). You have to guess for yourself whether or not a HD-SDI mod to any HD-DVD player will be available.
I thought the consensus was that this will not be possible. The SDI modification for DVD players is possible largely due to an oversight in the DVD spec (it never occurred to them that anyone would need or want an SDI connection when the format was being developed, so they didn't bother to put any protection in place on it). However, that is a "hole" that will be closed in the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray generation.

Copy protection is the #1 concern of every party involved in the development of these formats. They will not allow a player to be modified for a full-resolution digital output with no HDCP encryption.

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post #113 of 215 Old 07-25-2005, 10:05 AM
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Agreed---this is a workaround that I am sure they have anticipated from the start. I doubt you'll see any traces of unencrypted video content travelling around the PCB of any HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player. Decryption will occur only within chips who need the content, which will re-encrypt the data for output.

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post #114 of 215 Old 07-25-2005, 11:22 AM
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So what would prevent a country whom is exempt from U.S. laws to build a HD-DVD player that outputs 1080i on component or SDI?? I mean, if the Chinese, for example, build such a player whose going to stop them...

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post #115 of 215 Old 07-25-2005, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sknight1
So what would prevent a country whom is exempt from U.S. laws to build a HD-DVD player that outputs 1080i on component or SDI?? I mean, if the Chinese, for example, build such a player whose going to stop them...
In order to build an HD-DVD player, they have to license the technology from the HD-DVD forum. If the forum is not satisfied with the company's copy protection measures, they won't license the technology to them.

If the company pretends to comply with the HDCP requirements but later builds a player that circumvents it, the HD-DVD forum can revoke all of their keys, so that none of their equipment will work.

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post #116 of 215 Old 07-25-2005, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carled
HDCP isn't an encryption method for the sourse, it's encryption for the transmission (ie, down the DVI/HDMI cables), of a similar vein to Macrovision. You don't get DVDs which have HDCP protection 'on them'. The encryption on the DVD itself is called CCS, and the one for HD-DVD and [probably] Blu-ray is called AACS.
Assuming AACS prevents the HD-DVD from being ripped/copied and HDCP prevents the digital signal to be transmitted on DVI/HDMI, then why would our hypothetical "illegal" HD-DVD player manufacturer need the blessing of the HD Forum and obtain the HDCP keys if the player isn't going to use HDMI/DVI?? Don't you just need to be able to "read" the AACS encrypted HD-DVD disk or does AACS "look for" HDCP in order to be played?

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post #117 of 215 Old 07-25-2005, 02:02 PM
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U.S. laws are the least of the "problem", in fact, they may be irrelevant. We're talking patents, copyrights, contract, and technical countermeasures, all combined to insure that a manufacturer plays by the DVD Forum's or BDA's rules. Not that it would be technically impossible to build a non-compliant player, but it will likely be cost prohibitive.
Quote:
Don't you just need to be able to "read" the AACS encrypted HD-DVD disk or does AACS "look for" HDCP in order to be played?
And where do you propose that this rogue company acquire the necessary AACS keys to do the decryption?

Don't hold your breath waiting for a non-compliant HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player.

Michael
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post #118 of 215 Old 07-25-2005, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant
U.S. laws are the least of the "problem", in fact, they may be irrelevant. We're talking patents, copyrights, contract, and technical countermeasures, all combined to insure that a manufacturer plays by the DVD Forum's or BDA's rules.
My point is that a "rogue" manufacturer does not care about aquiesing (sp) to a Forum's rules or copyright laws and basically won't be held accountable. Let's face it, if we can't even keep a country(ies) from building nuclear weapons (and no I don't want to get into a political debate ;) )how can we prevent them from creating players that circumvent HDCP?? Just because Hollywood wants it, why should the world obey?

As for AACS keys; DVD decryption was readily broken and there are numerous programs available today to decrypt DVDs. You can make the argument that it was easily broken because of a "sloppy" software engineer. Irregardless, I'm sure at the time Hollywood thought their DVDs were "unbreakable". There are already filters and converters appearing that decode HDCP using decryption chips that were obtained probably not on the "up and up".

Assuming there is no technical reason why a "rogue" HD-DVD player can not be manufactured then I think there will be one. If I understand this correctly Hollywood "locked down" the HD-DVD disk with AACS, they "locked down" the signal interface with HDCP, but it sounds like they did not lock the disk to the interface which would be a mistake.

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post #119 of 215 Old 07-25-2005, 03:00 PM
 
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Will professional machines need to deal with HDCP encryption also? Will they have an HD-SDI output?
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post #120 of 215 Old 07-25-2005, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z
I thought the consensus was that this will not be possible. The SDI modification for DVD players is possible largely due to an oversight in the DVD spec (it never occurred to them that anyone would need or want an SDI connection when the format was being developed, so they didn't bother to put any protection in place on it). However, that is a "hole" that will be closed in the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray generation.

Copy protection is the #1 concern of every party involved in the development of these formats. They will not allow a player to be modified for a full-resolution digital output with no HDCP encryption.
DVD can be SDI modified because it is internally a bt.656 machine.

If HD-DVD and Blu-ray are internally bt.709 machines like I expect them to be, then it will certainly be possible.

Designing a working bt.709 HD-SDI board will of course be more expensive and difficult, so expect prices to be higher.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sknight1
So what would prevent a country whom is exempt from U.S. laws to build a HD-DVD player that outputs 1080i on component or SDI?? I mean, if the Chinese, for example, build such a player whose going to stop them...
Well the thing about SDI is that it's prefectly legal for a DVD player to include it (the rules state no IEEE-1394 output. SDI doesn't even get a look in), whereas HD-SDI is probably going to get mentioned in the copy protection rules for the new machines. Companies can get thier licence from the DVD Forum revoked if they break the rules, though I'm sure there'll still be a few Chinese fly-by-night companies in spite of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sknight1
Assuming AACS prevents the HD-DVD from being ripped/copied and HDCP prevents the digital signal to be transmitted on DVI/HDMI, then why would our hypothetical "illegal" HD-DVD player manufacturer need the blessing of the HD Forum and obtain the HDCP keys if the player isn't going to use HDMI/DVI?? Don't you just need to be able to "read" the AACS encrypted HD-DVD disk or does AACS "look for" HDCP in order to be played?
I believe AACS also has encryption keys that can be revoked.

Quote:
Let's face it, if we can't even keep a country(ies) from building nuclear weapons (and no I don't want to get into a political debate )how can we prevent them from creating players that circumvent HDCP??
Haaaaa.... :rolleyes:

Quote:
Just because Hollywood wants it, why should the world obey?
Who needs to actually have movies to play on our shiny HD-DVD and blu-ray players anyway!! :p

Quote:
As for AACS keys; DVD decryption was readily broken and there are numerous programs available today to decrypt DVDs.
To implement that in a hardware DVD player would require a hacked ASIC chip.

CCS is easy enough to get around in software, but there are still no hardware solutions to it. I'm sure we'll get a similar situation with AACS.

I'm 100% confident that we'll be able to get past AACS on a computer, but don't hold your breath for someone to make a physical player that can do likewise.
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