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post #181 of 215 Old 07-28-2005, 08:06 PM
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Mom catches wind that somethings up. Pop sheepishly explains to Mom that their new TV they just spent four grand on won't work and that they need to buy a new TV. Mom gives Pop the "like h@@@ we will" look. Mom makes Pop return his new disks and player to the stores shelves, grabs him by the ear and hauls him out of the store.
That's not necessarily so. That player will still work with their existing set, and probably still provide a considerably better picture than DVDs do, and meanwhile they are collecting HD discs that will be ready for them when they do decide to move up to HD, instead of continuing to collect DVDs. And they will have continually growing access to sat/cable content in the meantime as well.

I imagine that's what I'll end up doing. Just use the down-rezzed output to my scaler (as I'm doing now for DVDs and hardly suffering), and when the time comes, and I do get a new projector, I'll have a collection of HD discs ready to go and will have been enjoying them in the meantime.

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post #182 of 215 Old 07-28-2005, 08:25 PM
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Okay, I've been biting my tongue but starting to take some of these implications personally the insinuation that I am somehow criminal or a thief or that morals are declining.

Blanket statements that all products that don't follow a particular scheme is illegal is not necessarily true. They don't fall under the rules some commerical entities have placed via licensing I grant you, but what if the offending party is actually sales arms of the same companies that are in control? I can think of multitudes of ways how these mistakes may have been made, especially if it was done to expedite a sale.

Regardless, while I have always properly honored the IP owners by not downloading movies and music, copying DVDs, or otherwise obtain things I did not buy, I own some equipment that do not comply to HDCP. I keep hearing legal/illegal in terms of A/V equipment and all I can think of is that we are slowing conceding our fair use rights to those who invoke technology to hit us over our head without some protection against obsolesence. I don't feel criminal about trying to get my $10,000 plasma working a few more years, and I don't equate watching content to stealing content when I pay for the service that delivers the content.

I was totally against the BS Flag overreaching nonsense and HDCP requirement for broadcasts on PUBLIC airwaves. I'm overjoyed that smarter people with means to fight did. If people feel compelled to give Hollywood a free pass by invoking theft for any circumstance, well I think they are a sucker.

Five years after I saw my first digital programming, there has been numerous changes and no real consensus on how to proceed, wreaking havoc on A/V consumers, and after all these years most manufacturers still can't get it right. All I see is the industry working on yet another scheme to extract more licensing fees and limit competition by colluding amongst themselves for plum positioning. The lack of planning and oversight is just plain negligent.

Consumers have the ability to stem the tide of overly restrictive encryption schemes (not the same as copy protection) by fighting back every step of the way. The IP holders won't always have me on their terms if their commercial roadmap suck, and I'm won't be questioning my morals too much.
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post #183 of 215 Old 07-28-2005, 08:44 PM
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Kei, well said.
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post #184 of 215 Old 07-28-2005, 08:51 PM
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Okay, I've been biting my tongue but starting to take some of these implications personally the insinuation that I am somehow criminal or a thief or that morals are declining.
I hope you aren't talking about me, since I certainly made no claims about you personally. As to morals declining in general among consumers, they most certainly have. The fact that you and I don't abuse IP is meaningless in the face of billions of illegal downloads a month going on out there. Respect for the work of people who create IP content is at an all time low (for modern times) and dropping pretty quickly. The amount of illegal content moved around every day is staggering.

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If people feel compelled to give Hollywood a free pass by invoking theft for any circumstance, well I think they are a sucker.
Who is giving them a free pass? If you don't like the product, don't buy it. It's that simple. HD movies are not required for life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. They are selling a product, that product is being ripped off in huge numbers, and they are protecting it. If the only way they feel comfortable putting it out means you can't use it in some way you want, then don't participate. If enough people don't participate they'll change. But, if the vast bulk of people don't really care, live with it and either move on or get on board.

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post #185 of 215 Old 07-28-2005, 09:30 PM
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Q: Who wins in this scenario?
A: Absolutely no one.
Wrong. Me. I win. Me and the consumers who are waiting with anticipation to build a nice l library of our favorite titles in 1080p24 glory. And if the only acceptable option in the marketplace is no DRM, then that will never happen. Never. Movies cost too much to produce to have no assurance of return. (In that sense I make a clear distinction between music piracy and movie piracy.) And that's the scenario where nobody wins.

Besides, that 480p output is going to look SURPRISINGLY good. It will look a lot better than it does for standard DVD. You should see just how good high-def material looks on my 480p plasma. People are NOT going to feel like they're forced into a total overhaul of their display chain.

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post #186 of 215 Old 07-28-2005, 09:34 PM
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Okay, I've been biting my tongue but starting to take some of these implications personally the insinuation that I am somehow criminal or a thief or that morals are declining.
Nobody's been accusing you personally of anything. If you would never download anything from the internet in violation of copyright, or buy a bootleg DVD on a trip across the ocean, I will happily take your word for it.

But if I do a survey of 10,000 people, and they all say the same thing? Sorry, there are a bunch of liars among them. I may not know who they are, so I won't make specific accusations. But their exact identities don't matter to the bean counters: just knowing they exist in large numbers is enough.

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post #187 of 215 Old 07-28-2005, 09:54 PM
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And if the only acceptable option in the marketplace is no DRM, then that will never happen. Never. Movies cost too much to produce to have no assurance of return.
Though I was accused of having no business accumen, I think that people just don't appreciate this issue. They think that the studios have to make movies to survive and therefore no matter what compromise is forced on them, they will continue to make movies.

But, unless I'm very confused about how things happen, when a Peter Jackson comes along and asks NewLine to make LOTRs, NewLine does NOT have 300 million lying around to put into it. They go to outside investors and convince them to put in money for the project. If those outside investors don't got involved, it won't get made.

And those investors absolutely do have other things to put their money in, and if they perceive that theft has reached a point that it threatens their ability get as good or better of a return on their money than something else, they just won't do it and those types of movies just won't get made.

So the studios aren't going to just keep making really cool stuff like LOTRS no matter what. Those that require outside investment might not continue to get it, and those that are owned by large CE companies have better things to do with that kind of money if they aren't going to get a big payoff from that huge a risk.

There was a previous argument on this subject where someone argued with me profusely that there was absolutely no risk making LOTRs and that it was destined to make a huge amount of money. As Wolfgang Pauli used to say, that's not even wrong. The people who put up the money for that kind of project take a MASSIVE risk, and it could have all been lost at any time. If Elijah wood died in a chopper crash halfway through, it would have been over.

For that kind of risk of that kind of money, they aren't going to be happy to just get their money back, they are going to want a very good return. And they certainly aren't going to risk it on something that people just take without paying for.

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post #188 of 215 Old 07-28-2005, 10:02 PM
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I keep hearing legal/illegal in terms of A/V equipment and all I can think of is that we are slowing conceding our fair use rights to those who invoke technology to hit us over our head without some protection against obsolesence.
Here's a radical notion, but one I firmly believe:

There are only two actions in recent history that has caused an erosion of our rights of fair use---the only things. One is the passage of the DMCA. The other is the recent Supreme Court decision extending copyright terms to 75 years and more.

That's it. Nada. Nothing else.

"You're kidding, right?"

No, I am not kidding. And specifically, all of this development of DRM technology has not budged our fair use rights one millimeter.

People have a considerable misunderstanding about what fair use rights are. Fair use rights do not guarantee that you are able to manipulate a piece of content in certain ways (make personal copies, share with friends, etc.). Rather, they guarantee that you cannot be prosecuted or sued if you do.

The distinction is important, because: content providers have never been obligated to make your fair use rights easy to exercise. It has been entirely within their rights, from the beginning, to make it difficult for you to do so, whether through technical or contractual means.

If we passed a law saying that content companies had to make it easy to exercise fair use rights, then hardbound books would have to be made with lay-flat bindings so that it was as easy as possible to xerox a couple of pages. Or even better, they would be required to attach a CD-ROM on the back of a book with a full searchable version of the text.

Let's go even further with this book analogy. DRM would be kind of like printing a book on special paper or with special ink that prevents a copy machine from working. If you try to copy a page, it just comes out all black. Now, does that make your fair use rights harder to exercise? Yes. Is it illegal for them to do that? No. Well, what if I don't like it? Don't buy the book, that's what----or, you can circumvent the protection in some way, perhaps by transcribing the text you're interested in by hand. Or maybe someone will figure out that squirting lemon juice on the page defeats the copy protection.

That's where the DMCA comes in. The DMCA effectively makes the "lemon juice trick" illegal, even if all I want to do is copy a page or two for a non-infringing use. It no longer matters why I'm defeating the copy protection; it only matters that I have. Now that is indeed a case of the government presuming guilt, and it's why I think the DMCA was wrong.

What I prefer to see is that the marketplace speaks. If nobody buys the copy-protected book because they don't want to have to squirt lemon juice on the page, then the publishers will learn and not make that mistake. If it's just a novel, maybe nobody will care, but if it's a recipe book... well, you know what I mean.

Likewise, if HD-DVD's copy protection system is too restrictive, and makes it very difficult or impossible to do some of the fair use things I would really like to do, well, I won't buy it. And neither should you if you feel the same way. And one nice thing about AACS is that it is flexible. The content providers have quite a bit of control over how much protection they can apply to a title. So it could very well be that they decide, "you know, nobody is willing to buy these discs because we've locked them down too much." And they'll relax things. Or, maybe not. It's up to us consumers to decide.

It's only with the emergence of digital technology, that made it so very easy to exercise fair use, that we've begun to think that we're entitled to that easiness. We never have been.

Michael
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post #189 of 215 Old 07-28-2005, 10:40 PM
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I think we've covered every aspect of this issue.

Obviously, none of us are trying to use this thead to break HDCP (I wish we could).

Kei,

We value your opinions and views and I hope you keep helping us out with this. I don't think anyone views digitalconnection as a potential "hacking store" or anything of that sort.

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
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post #190 of 215 Old 07-28-2005, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Dean Roddey
I hope you aren't talking about me, since I certainly made no claims about you personally. As to morals declining in general among consumers, they most certainly have. The fact that you and I don't abuse IP is meaningless in the face of billions of illegal downloads a month going on out there. Respect for the work of people who create IP content is at an all time low (for modern times) and dropping pretty quickly. The amount of illegal content moved around every day is staggering.
You know that I have the utmost respect for you, and agree with you about theft, but I'm not so absolute in proclaiming moral decline. I have kids that resemble the many millions that grew up downloading. I attribute this to a generation all dressed up with no place to go, growing up with the cult like elevation of technology like Napter in the national media, all revved up with a gaming PC and a brand new broadband connection, and impatient in their youthful exuberance. The industry had an opportunity to turn them all into paying customers early on, but instead tried to legislate their way to status quo. When the smoke clears on this era, history books will call them the losers that they were, lacking the vision and foresight. The music industry blew the chance to use a technology so perfect for delivery of their product, caught frozen in the path of the oncoming headlight. They may have been legally right, but so wrong in their arrogance and business acumen, hopefully they will be able to crawl back out of the hole they dug themselves into.


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Who is giving them a free pass? If you don't like the product, don't buy it. It's that simple. HD movies are not required for life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. They are selling a product, that product is being ripped off in huge numbers, and they are protecting it.
You are if you don't protest your inability to use your perfectly good projector to watch the content you paid for. I say back to you that HD movies are not required for life and liberty (pursuit of happiness is questionable), and therefore something trivial as entertainment should not be so difficult to use once purchased.

The way I see it, if the industry ask to have protection legislated into law, you obviously are asking for public resources to enforce it, and therefore must meet some common good for that right.
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post #191 of 215 Old 07-28-2005, 11:05 PM
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You are if you don't protest your inability to use your perfectly good projector to watch the content you paid for.
But I haven't paid for any yet :-) And if it wasn't watchable at all on it, I wouldn't be any at all. As mentioned above, what I will likely do is get the player, and start collecting in the HD format, and feed the 480p to my scaler (which will look damn good compared to DVD), and when the time comes, I'll move up to a digital and I'll not have put any money into DVDs in the meantime, and I'll have the collection of disks of stuff I like ready to go.

I just can't get bent out of shape about technology obsolescence. It's just part of the game, and it happens all the time in the computer world. MS has a few times effectively obsoleted the bulk of the world's software by making a new OS that won't run it anymore, and before that I went through OS/2 so that's another one for me. It's par for the game, and I've spent *considerably* more on upgrading software over the years to keep it viable than I spent on my projector.

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post #192 of 215 Old 07-28-2005, 11:08 PM
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Michael, your descriptions and analysis were truly spot on and, dare I say, brilliant.

Kei, you wrote, " The music industry blew the chance to use a technology so perfect for delivery of their product"... I dunno about that. Apple will sell about 550 million songs this year online, representing nearly 2% of the global CD business... Ringtones will be 4x as large... They were slow and late, but they're getting there.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #193 of 215 Old 07-28-2005, 11:12 PM
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The music industry blew the chance to use a technology so perfect for delivery of their product, caught frozen in the path of the oncoming headlight. They may have been legally right, but so wrong in their arrogance and business acumen, hopefully they will be able to crawl back out of the hole they dug themselves into.
I just don't think that's an accurate representation of what happened. The Napsters of the world had a free ride. They created no content, and made their money on other people's backs and didn't care about protecting IP. So it was cheap for them to create a distribution network, and make good money. They weren't much more than an ISP whose selling point was that they could give you all kinds of stuff without paying for it.

For someone to create a real distribution system that does protect IP and that is a real business takes time and it would have been far harder for the legitimate owners to react that quickly, and the first version of whatever it was would have been obsolete before it was done probably.

But they have caught up now, and they are using the net as a distribution system. There are plenty of services out there. But that's not slowed the illegal activity down a bit. This would lead the more cynical among us to believe that it never had anything to do with the lack of legal sources.

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post #194 of 215 Old 07-29-2005, 12:36 AM
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People have a considerable misunderstanding about what fair use rights are. Fair use rights do not guarantee that you are able to manipulate a piece of content in certain ways (make personal copies, share with friends, etc.). Rather, they guarantee that you cannot be prosecuted or sued if you do.

The distinction is important, because: content providers have never been obligated to make your fair use rights easy to exercise. It has been entirely within their rights, from the beginning, to make it difficult for you to do so, whether through technical or contractual means.
Would that be true if BS Flag was implemented, HDCP invoked, and "Copy Never" used on our the public broadcasts? Wouldn't another tenet take over in this instance, some collective rights of the public stemming from the use of the airwaves granted to the stations? We could argue what those rights would encompass, but I believe one was that the broadcast can't be encrypted to limit the use by the people.

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I just can't get bent out of shape about technology obsolescence. It's just part of the game, and it happens all the time in the computer world.
But don't you like it better when you actually win the game? I derive satisfaction and pleasure from those little victories in life. Come on Dean, you know you want that apple.

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Kei, you wrote, " The music industry blew the chance to use a technology so perfect for delivery of their product"... I dunno about that. Apple will sell about 550 million songs this year online, representing nearly 2% of the global CD business... Ringtones will be 4x as large... They were slow and late, but they're getting there.
My point was that they're about 5 years too late, and several billion dollars (by their account) short. I know they're getting their act together, and I ask what took them so long.

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I just don't think that's an accurate representation of what happened. The Napsters of the world had a free ride. They created no content, and made their money on other people's backs and didn't care about protecting IP.
Are you sure Napster even making money at the time?

More the reason why they should have been making deals with Napster. If they claim that they did not see an opportunity in those early days of the dot.com boom for the marriage of music with Napster, then they slept through the decade. Its laughable to claim they made an attempt to build their own distribution network, the RIAA instead spent their resources trying to obliterate Napster in court. What a huge miscalculation. Apple today proves that they could have made good money and headway back then had they been more realistic in their assesment. While they footdragged, they left the door open and watched a whole generation aquire a bad habit, all the while bemoaning their plight.
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post #195 of 215 Old 07-29-2005, 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Dean Roddey
Though I was accused of having no business accumen, I think that people just don't appreciate this issue. They think that the studios have to make movies to survive and therefore no matter what compromise is forced on them, they will continue to make movies.

But, unless I'm very confused about how things happen, when a Peter Jackson comes along and asks NewLine to make LOTRs, NewLine does NOT have 300 million lying around to put into it. They go to outside investors and convince them to put in money for the project. If those outside investors don't got involved, it won't get made.

And those investors absolutely do have other things to put their money in, and if they perceive that theft has reached a point that it threatens their ability get as good or better of a return on their money than something else, they just won't do it and those types of movies just won't get made.

So the studios aren't going to just keep making really cool stuff like LOTRS no matter what. Those that require outside investment might not continue to get it, and those that are owned by large CE companies have better things to do with that kind of money if they aren't going to get a big payoff from that huge a risk.

There was a previous argument on this subject where someone argued with me profusely that there was absolutely no risk making LOTRs and that it was destined to make a huge amount of money. As Wolfgang Pauli used to say, that's not even wrong. The people who put up the money for that kind of project take a MASSIVE risk, and it could have all been lost at any time. If Elijah wood died in a chopper crash halfway through, it would have been over.

For that kind of risk of that kind of money, they aren't going to be happy to just get their money back, they are going to want a very good return. And they certainly aren't going to risk it on something that people just take without paying for.
You're arguing on a slippery slope there. DVD is about as secure as a dirty sock, but that hasn't stopped it accounting for about half of all profits from recent films.
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post #196 of 215 Old 07-29-2005, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Kei Clark

I was testing with an HDCP based DVD Player. Connected directly to a PC monitor via DVI, the HDCP incompatibility static, but with the DVI to VGA converter in-line, I get picture at both 720p and 1080i. Unfortunately, the Samsung is the only DVD player I have tried so far.

I also tested with a PC video card sending out a 1920x1200 desktop and I get a perfect desktop image, albeit not as sharp as with straight DVI but thats to be expected on any analog input.

Best news is the MSRP is $199.
Kei,

I finally figured out what you were talking about and just ordered one. Wish me luck

Ray
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post #197 of 215 Old 07-29-2005, 07:22 AM
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Kei,
My dvd player is the Pioneer Elite 59avi.

Just a note, HDCP has affected me in that, instead of buying a new dvd every couple of days, I have bought exactly 0 since I started having trouble with HDCP.
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post #198 of 215 Old 07-29-2005, 07:54 AM
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Would that be true if BS Flag was implemented, HDCP invoked, and "Copy Never" used on our the public broadcasts?
Yes. Again, fair use rights are not guaranteed to be easy to exercise. However, if by our "public" broadcasts you mean over-the-air networks, or publicly funded networks like PBS, then I would agree that none of these restrictions should be placed on them. (Though the OTA networks would still be free to do so when transmitted over cable and satellite.)

Remember, there is always the option of not partaking of the content.[quote]Wouldn't another tenet take over in this instance, some collective rights of the public stemming from the use of the airwaves granted to the stations?[quote]No, not really. Again, I just argued above that OTA broadcasts should be free from those encumberances. But that is not because we have any right to that. Rather, it is because we would like the FCC to represent us, the public; and we would want the FCC to, as a matter of policy, mandate no BS flags and no HDCP on OTA broadcasts.
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We could argue what those rights would encompass, but I believe one was that the broadcast can't be encrypted to limit the use by the people.
Funny, since the technology to encrypt broadcast TV content didn't even exist, and wasn't even conceived of, when the principles of public ownership of the airwaves were first introduced.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you about the way I would want it in this instance. And we as a public have the power to make it happen by pressuring our government representatives and getting them to implement the policies as we prefer them. And the FCC certainly has the power through the contractual relationship they have with the broadcast companies to mandate such things.

But "right" is a very tricky word and it is way, way, way too overused.

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post #199 of 215 Old 07-29-2005, 07:57 AM
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The market at work!

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post #200 of 215 Old 07-29-2005, 08:49 AM
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One can only hope they sort these things out, and even if we are a minority that no one should care about (paraphrasing an earlier post,) the powers that be are going to HAVE to do something to make HD-DVDs work seamlessly, or they aren't going to sell any better than SACD and DVD-A.

I have a friend who is an even earlier adopter than me; when we tried to watch his new WM-9(?) hi def copy of T2, it took a good 10 minutes over my fast internet connection to "prove" that we had the right to watch the dvd he had just purchased "legally" that day. It is funny that the disk making people can ignore us, since afaik, we are probably the ONLY people who would pay for a movie, and then put up with all the associated crap, just to watch it in 1080p.

btw, the disk looked pretty nice, but nwih I'm going to jump thru those hoops just to watch a movie. If the industry goes that direction, I'll gladly pay for a pirated copy that I can put in my player or computer, and just WATCH.

soory - this is sort of a hot button topic, isn't it. I really shouldn't be yelling this early in the day. ;)

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post #201 of 215 Old 07-29-2005, 08:54 AM
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Jon, that T2 disc was definitely a mess. I have no doubt that if that's what is required to play HD-DVD's, they would never succeed. Fortunately we have assurances that HD-DVD's will truly have an "insert and press play" experience in standalone players, with no Internet connection required. (As for PC-based playback I am not sure.)
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It is funny that the disk making people can ignore us, since afaik, we are probably the ONLY people who would pay for a movie, and then put up with all the associated crap, just to watch it in 1080p.
This seems a bit backwards to me. We want them ignoring people who have no problem waiting 10 minutes to validate their new HD-DVDs :) They should instead be listening to all the people who won't jump through these absurd hoops :) That way, they don't put them there in the first place.

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post #202 of 215 Old 07-29-2005, 09:36 AM
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Would that be true if BS Flag was implemented, HDCP invoked, and "Copy Never" used on our the public broadcasts? Wouldn't another tenet take over in this instance, some collective rights of the public stemming from the use of the airwaves granted to the stations? We could argue what those rights would encompass, but I believe one was that the broadcast can't be encrypted to limit the use by the people.
No. The rights issue is no different here.

However, there is a contract issue. Through our proxies in the FCC, we the people offer over-the-air broadcasters access to spectrum in exchange for certain concessions. Those concessions can include the prevention of the use of the broadcast flag or HDCP---and I definitely agree they should. But that would just be part of the contract.

Not all spectrum is regulated the same way, though. For example, satellite broadcasters are allowed to use DRM with no restrictions. The public's compensation for their use of the airwaves is far simpler: $$$$$$$.

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post #203 of 215 Old 07-29-2005, 09:55 AM
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Congress anticipated this when it created the DMCA.

Specifically, House Report 105-551 states:
"Under the bill as reported, nothing would make it illegal for a manufacturer of a product or device (to which Section 102 would otherwise apply) to design or modify the product or device solely to the extent necessary to mitigate a frequently occurring and noticeable adverse effect on the authorized performance or display of a work that is caused by a technological protection measure in the ordinary course of its design and operation. Similarly, recognizing that a technological protection measure may cause a problem with a particular device, or combination of devices, used by a consumer, it is the Committee's view that nothing in the bill should be interpreted to make it illegal for a retailer or individual consumer to modify a product or device solely to the extent necessary to mitigate a noticeable adverse effect on the authorized performance or display of a work that is communicated to or received by that particular product or device if that adverse effect is caused by a technological protection measure in the ordinary course of its design and operation."

In this particular case, it could be rephrased as follows:
"This bill would not make it illegal for someone to design or modify the product or device solely to the extent necessary to mitigate the compatibility problem for non-HDCP displays that is caused by HDCP in the ordinary course of its design and operation."
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post #204 of 215 Old 07-29-2005, 10:05 AM
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Hey, now this is good news! This certainly means it legal for individual consumers to use an HDCP-stripping device so they can watch encrypted content on a non-HDCP display. And it gives retailers and even product designers a fair amount of latitude as well.

But this does not make it legal for someone bound by the HDCP contractual agreement to do so. That is a separate obligation. You'd basically have to find a way to acquire some HDCP decryption chips on the open market with valid keys bulit in. (And the key revocation threat does not go away in that instance.)

I still think the DMCA is bad legislation but this is at least some consolation.

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post #205 of 215 Old 07-29-2005, 10:21 AM
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Hey, now this is good news!
Don't you remember the first time I posted it here? ;)
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post #206 of 215 Old 07-29-2005, 10:28 AM
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Wow, there has been so much information on this forum to absorb in the last 18 months that must have pushed that right out of the back of my head! :)

Looking back at that thread I was definitely wrong, I figured it would be too expensive for someone to be motivated to build an HDCP cracker box. It has been easier for people to do than I had anticipated---because they have somehow been able to use existing HDCP-enabled chipsets rather than roll their own.

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post #207 of 215 Old 07-29-2005, 10:33 AM
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It is good news, but I can't help but reflect that it puts the parties, consumers(and makers of HDCP stripping devices) and content providers, in an adversarial environment where the content providers will continue to make stronger CP measures and the other side will continue to try and circumvent it, legally. It just seems there would be a better way to overcome the problem with both parties working together.

OTOH, I guess we should be happy that we at least have a defensible position when using or creating HDCP circumvention technology, as messy and complicated as it may be.
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post #208 of 215 Old 07-29-2005, 10:57 AM
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You're arguing on a slippery slope there. DVD is about as secure as a dirty sock, but that hasn't stopped it accounting for about half of all profits from recent films.
The movie people aren't looking at the current moment, in which the size of video content prevents it from suffering th same fate as music. They are looking to the future, where they will no longer have that extra margin of safety.

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post #209 of 215 Old 07-29-2005, 11:02 AM
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it puts the parties, consumers(and makers of HDCP stripping devices) and content providers, in an adversarial environment where the content providers will continue to make stronger CP measures and the other side will continue to try and circumvent it, legally.
Yes, indeed. Isn't it wonderful? :)

Seriously, I don't consider this a problem at all. I'm envisioning the cartoons where the two adversaries keep bringing out bigger and bigger weapons. The copy protection measures get better, and so do the hackers. I think that's sounds like a great way to spur on innovation and invention. Competition!

But the reason I'm OK with that is that the consumer is in the middle of the fight, keeping the results at least remotely sane. We sit in the middle of the fight, evaluating media formats in terms of their features and convenience. We embraced CD; we rejected DVD-A. We embraced DVD; we rejected DivX. So even if the underlying technology gets more and more sophisticated and advanced, they're still going to have to let us purchase that disc for a reasonable price, pop it into the player whenever we want, and not have to log onto the Internet or enter a credit card number or fingerprint to get it to play.

No, we consumers are not perfect referees, which is why the HDCP issue is a bit of a mess. But we do a decent job of keeping the parties in check with our purhcasing power.
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It just seems there would be a better way tob overcome the problem with both parties working together.
Well, this is really what John Lennon was thinking about when he wrote the song "Imagine". Copy protection!

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post #210 of 215 Old 07-29-2005, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Grant
Well, this is really what John Lennon was thinking about when he wrote the song "Imagine". Copy protection!
Quite a prescient fellow was he.... :D :D
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