DVDO iScan VP30 - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 6819 Old 08-20-2005, 07:56 AM
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"Also - how does one choose an 8-bit RGB output in the VP30 HDMI should one choose to use the DVI-HDCP board in the 50" Panny for native rate?"

HDMI chips are auto-sensing. I don't think you can force YCbCr with an RGB-only input.


"Here's hoping that the Panny HDMI board accepts 1366 x 768 from VP30."

I'm going to ask a Panasonic tech this very question.

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post #362 of 6819 Old 08-20-2005, 08:19 AM
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when you select what type of DVI display (on all DVDO products) - you can specify if you want PC (full 255 levels) or "regular" (less the first 16 levels).

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post #363 of 6819 Old 08-20-2005, 08:42 AM
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ofer
Both formats use the full 0 - 255 space: however, 0 and 255 are supposed to be reserved (although they are encodable).

In the digital PC format, 1 is black and 254 is white. There is no provision for displaying Below Black and Peak White signals. There are artifacts produced from changing to or from the digital video format to or from the digital PC format.

In the digital video format, 16 is black and 235 is white. Values 1 - 15 are called Below Black and are used to compensate for black dipping below the reference level (16). Values 236 - 254 are called Peak White and are used to compensate for white peaking above the reference level (235).

You should always choose digital video levels, unless your display forces you to send it digital PC levels.

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post #364 of 6819 Old 08-20-2005, 08:47 AM
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But don't you lose information by reducing the range?
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post #365 of 6819 Old 08-20-2005, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Murphy Jr View Post

ofer
Both formats use the full 0 - 255 space: however, 0 and 255 are supposed to be reserved (although they are encodable).

In the digital PC format, 1 is black and 254 is white. There is no provision for displaying Below Black and Peak White signals. There are artifacts produced from changing to or from the digital video format to or from the digital PC format.

In the digital video format, 16 is black and 235 is white. Values 1 - 15 are called Below Black and are used to compensate for black dipping below the reference level (16). Values 236 - 254 are called Peak White and are used to compensate for white peaking above the reference level (235).

You should always choose digital video levels, unless your display forces you to send it digital PC levels.


Is there a consensus what is best if you have both options ? I use a sdi -> hd+ -> optoma H78 and used both but ended up in pc levels in the end.

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post #366 of 6819 Old 08-20-2005, 09:29 PM
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Q#1: no
Q#2: yes, the experts say digital video levels


DVD, HDTV and the next gen formats are based on digital video levels, not digital PC levels. Read the Source Guide and click on the links within for more information. If you still come away after reading it that digital PC levels are the way to go, then people like Joe Kane, Guy Kuo, Greg Rogers, Stacey Spears, Don Munsil, etc need to quit their jobs because they obviously don't know what the hell they're talking about.

I'm done with getting into arguments about digital video levels vs digital PC levels. The discussions go on and on and round and round because the majority of PC people don't understand the film process and in most cases, ironically, digital encode/decode.

Here's a link to the Source Guide on the DVD Hardware forum:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=494606

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post #367 of 6819 Old 08-20-2005, 09:40 PM
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Here's hoping that the Panny HDMI board accepts 1366 x 768 from VP30.

Got the reply, but even he says it's doubtful. The consumer versions will only accept up to 1344 (of that he's sure) and he's pretty sure the commercial versions won't do 1366. He did say, however, that they are still trying to do some testing to see if it's possible. I know that sounds crazy, but, according to him, Panasonic (Japan) is selling the commercial HDMI cards faster than they're making them. It's not like they have several cards sitting around at Panasonic (US) to play with.

If I come across the person who says it's possible, I'll get the details. Until then, don't hold your breath.

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post #368 of 6819 Old 08-20-2005, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wojtek View Post

I just checked the specs on the new (not out yet) Panasonic TH-50PHD8UK, and among digital boards, only the DVI/HDCP board accepts the display's native rate (1366 x 768). The HDMI board does not.

Also note that the DVI/HDCP board only accepts native rate at 60Hz.
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post #369 of 6819 Old 08-21-2005, 04:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ph0sphor View Post

Also note that the DVI/HDCP board only accepts native rate at 60Hz.


Can the VP30 do the frequency conversion from 50 to 60Hz with little or no judder?
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post #370 of 6819 Old 08-21-2005, 05:49 AM
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Josh, a similar question: The Canon SX50 specifies this for the 1400 x 1050 native input signal:

Horizontal Frequency: 63.981 kHz
Vertical Frequency: 60.02 kHz

Is the VP30 able to output 1400 x 1050 at these frequencies?

Thanks.

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post #371 of 6819 Old 08-21-2005, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Dan - I am very sure that the VP30 can. My display at home will not accept this input signal so I can't confirm right now, but I will this week. The two adjustments necessary to create this output (which others may be able to confirm before me on their HDs or HD+s) is:

1. Choose 1400x1050 as your output resolution

Output Setup->Format->1400x1050

2. Change the framerate from 59.94 to 60.02

Output Setup->Framerate->60Hz->Unlock->60.02

You can then confirm that you have the right vertical and horizontal output frequency by pressing the 'Info' button

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post #372 of 6819 Old 08-21-2005, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wojtek View Post

Can the VP30 do the frequency conversion from 50 to 60Hz with little or no judder?

Yes, the VP30 (like the HD and HD+) can do PAL->NTSC and NTSC->PAL conversion. From what I have seen, there is minimal judder.

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post #373 of 6819 Old 08-21-2005, 11:51 AM
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Wow, thanks Josh for a great answer.

Dan

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post #374 of 6819 Old 08-22-2005, 03:50 PM
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Josh, I sent you a few emails in regards to this unit. I need to speak to you in person about this if you could please contact me tomorrow at 315-538-9806. I have not been able to get hold of you.
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post #375 of 6819 Old 08-22-2005, 07:50 PM
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Does the new iscan have built in test patterns to use for calibrating cable, satellite, etc?
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post #376 of 6819 Old 08-22-2005, 11:25 PM
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Josh,

I had problems with HDCP authentication and HDTV with the HD+. What is the prospect of the issue being fixed in the VP30?

I tried the HD+ with my Panasonic AE700 pj (firmware v 1.07), but there were issues with HDTV and HDMI input from DVD - neither worked.

Service applied the patch to the 2.32 software, but it still didn't work. SD TV did look much better .

The HD+ went back for the bugs and the fact that I wanted HDMI support instead of DVI to match both PJ and DVD player.

I'm hanging on to the Panny until PJs are 1080p with Brilliant Color wheels. Do you recommend waiting on the scaler too?

Thanks and best.
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post #377 of 6819 Old 08-23-2005, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Murphy Jr View Post

Q#1: no

Depends on how you look at it.

It would have been far better if DVDs were encoded with a 0-255 range since this would obviously give more contrast.

But unfortunately that is not the case, instead we have this "trust us we know better (and get paid for it lavishly) but we feel to high to explain" attitude from the so-called experts who want to make us "understand" that 256 steps of resolution are really the same as 226 steps of resolution.

I have NEVER, EVER seen a rational explanation why on earth we need 15 steps of below black and 15 steps of above white.
I think it was a goofy decision in the first place which is now rationalized (by some) with quack science or with appeals to authority.
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post #378 of 6819 Old 08-23-2005, 12:18 AM
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Did you read the Go-to Guide for Source Options that Joe provided a link for?
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post #379 of 6819 Old 08-23-2005, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yzurdiaga View Post

Josh,

I had problems with HDCP authentication and HDTV with the HD+. What is the prospect of the issue being fixed in the VP30?

I tried the HD+ with my Panasonic AE700 pj (firmware v 1.07), but there were issues with HDTV and HDMI input from DVD - neither worked.

Service applied the patch to the 2.32 software, but it still didn't work. SD TV did look much better .

The HD+ went back for the bugs and the fact that I wanted HDMI support instead of DVI to match both PJ and DVD player.

I'm hanging on to the Panny until PJs are 1080p with Brilliant Color wheels. Do you recommend waiting on the scaler too?

Thanks and best.


I used a Denon 5900 sdi modified into a HD+, then DVI to HDMI cable to the AE700 projector without any problems. Worked fine.

If you had a problem doing the same, it would suggest that something else was broke.

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post #380 of 6819 Old 08-23-2005, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RU Geekman View Post

Did you read the Go-to Guide for Source Options that Joe provided a link for?

I just did and placed my comments at the end.

By the way, I do not dispute the recommendation to use video levels instead of PC levels. I dispute that shaving off 16 levels both at the bottom and the top is necessary or a good idea.
But what it boils down to is that we simply have to live with a, in my opinion, bad decision made in the past.

By the way I suggest we continue the discussion about this in the appropriate topic, this one is about the new VP30.
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post #381 of 6819 Old 08-23-2005, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

I used a Denon 5900 sdi modified into a HD+, then DVI to HDMI cable to the AE700 projector without any problems. Worked fine.

If you had a problem doing the same, it would suggest that something else was broke.

jim he had a HDCP issue. Your SDI mod has no HDCP so there is no issue.

yzurdiaga, in the AE700 thread (in display forum) there were some mentioning of HDCP issues. I can't remember the details but it seems the firmware plays a part. Did u try anything on the panny side ?
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post #382 of 6819 Old 08-23-2005, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

Josh, I sent you a few emails in regards to this unit. I need to speak to you in person about this if you could please contact me tomorrow at 315-538-9806. I have not been able to get hold of you.

Is everything ok?

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #383 of 6819 Old 08-23-2005, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Murphy Jr View Post

Here's hoping that the Panny HDMI board accepts 1366 x 768 from VP30.

Got the reply, but even he says it's doubtful. The consumer versions will only accept up to 1344 (of that he's sure) and he's pretty sure the commercial versions won't do 1366. He did say, however, that they are still trying to do some testing to see if it's possible. I know that sounds crazy, but, according to him, Panasonic (Japan) is selling the commercial HDMI cards faster than they're making them. It's not like they have several cards sitting around at Panasonic (US) to play with.

If I come across the person who says it's possible, I'll get the details. Until then, don't hold your breath.

I'm running 1366x768 from an HD+ into my commercial 507UY Panasonic through the HDMI board. Native rate works like a champ through HDMI. Too bad Panasonic doesn't know that.

Steve
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post #384 of 6819 Old 08-23-2005, 09:02 PM
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Steve
You're the one!

I'll make the Panasonic tech aware of your good news and maybe we can get some resolution, if you'll pardon the pun, on this issue.

Crap! Almost forgot: please post your settings here, in the Native Rate thread or both.

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post #385 of 6819 Old 08-23-2005, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htpcfan View Post

Depends on how you look at it.

It would have been far better if DVDs were encoded with a 0-255 range since this would obviously give more contrast.

But unfortunately that is not the case, instead we have this "trust us we know better (and get paid for it lavishly) but we feel to high to explain" attitude from the so-called experts who want to make us "understand" that 256 steps of resolution are really the same as 226 steps of resolution.

I have NEVER, EVER seen a rational explanation why on earth we need 15 steps of below black and 15 steps of above white.
I think it was a goofy decision in the first place which is now rationalized (by some) with quack science or with appeals to authority.

It is real simple. The reference for video and playback of video is a Sony CRT direct view monitor. Unlike digital monitors that simply clip at a given level, the Sony has range that simply fades off. This extends below the point we call black and above what we call white in the digital realm. With a digital display you can set your clipping levels to the definitive black and white level or you can allow for the information that is present in the reference. So Studio RGB levels, which are referenced to a monitor that does not have definitive clipping levels, allows for this head and toe room that is in the reference.

I don't understand why this is so hard for people to understand. It made perfect sense to me the first time I heard it. It is also very easy to understand why this isn't an issue in the PC world as their reference isn't a Sony monitor that is used for all masters. Just like when you calibrate your audio to a reference that is also used in the recording studio, you want to calibrate your monitor to the same reference used when they mastered the video you watch, that way you get what was intended. It doesn't really have to make sense to you in the end, it just is what it is. Some of us get it though, I didn't think it was that tough.

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post #386 of 6819 Old 08-23-2005, 09:37 PM
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"Depends on how you look at it."

Exactly. If you look at it the right way, it makes perfect sense. If you look at it the wrong way, you try to drag people into never-ending circular debates that waste peoples' time.

Like Kris said, "It doesn't really have to make sense to you in the end, it just is what it is. Some of us get it though...".

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post #387 of 6819 Old 08-23-2005, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spa View Post

I'm running 1366x768 from an HD+ into my commercial 507UY Panasonic through the HDMI board. Native rate works like a champ through HDMI. Too bad Panasonic doesn't know that.

But only with 60Hz, I guess? Could you please try with 50Hz for us Europeans? Thanks!!
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post #388 of 6819 Old 08-23-2005, 11:37 PM
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Josh, does the comb filter in VP30 work on PAL also ? (I understand most of the comb filters in US products are NTSC only)
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post #389 of 6819 Old 08-24-2005, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I don't understand why this is so hard for people to understand. It made perfect sense to me the first time I heard it. It is also very easy to understand why this isn't an issue in the PC world as their reference isn't a Sony monitor that is used for all masters. Just like when you calibrate your audio to a reference that is also used in the recording studio, you want to calibrate your monitor to the same reference used when they mastered the video you watch, that way you get what was intended. It doesn't really have to make sense to you in the end, it just is what it is. Some of us get it though, I didn't think it was that tough.

with the risk of getting yelled at again , what i don't understand (even after reading) is why this is needed in the 'second' step of the process. I understand that sdi is using video levels but thats on the input side. why can't a scaler like the hd+ not recast these to the full 255 options for the output side ? so take in 226 steps convert them to 255 steps do the processing and output pc levels this would make for more tuning options and more dynamic range. I understand that the input signal will not change but it seems weird to me that the scaler can't do anything useful with these extra values.

Daniel.

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post #390 of 6819 Old 08-24-2005, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

It is real simple. The reference for video and playback of video is a Sony CRT direct view monitor. Unlike digital monitors that simply clip at a given level, the Sony has range that simply fades off. This extends below the point we call black and above what we call white in the digital realm. With a digital display you can set your clipping levels to the definitive black and white level or you can allow for the information that is present in the reference. So Studio RGB levels, which are referenced to a monitor that does not have definitive clipping levels, allows for this head and toe room that is in the reference.

Right, so that means we are stuck with an outdated mechanism that works for CRTs and is no longer appropriate for modern day displays.
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