DVDO iScan VP30 - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 04:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh@dvdo View Post

Yes and you can get the full trade-up credit for your HD+ ($1000).

You da man!!!!!!!!!
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post #182 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 05:03 AM
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Thanks for the response Josh. Interestingly, the Scientific Atlanta Explorer 3250 they're using here does NOT have HDCP, go figure. Also appreciate your input on the Denon, I've seen this before, nice to see it confirmed. I'll try it both ways.

I read Josh's response about video deinterlacing to mean the VP30 still isn't quite as good as DCDi. That's a disappointment, you'd think after years have passed that this would no longer be the case.

Still, this is looking like the best overall solution for me. I particularly like the switching in this unit, will enable me to simplify my system and increase WAF (wife approval factor).

When is this puppy shipping? Before Cedia??

Dan

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post #183 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 05:47 AM
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Dan,

I'm looking at the same setup as you, to my limited understanding is this correct for the VP30 /SX50 setup:

1) does 480i to 480p then scaled to 1400x1050p @ 60Hz
2) Bobs 1080i to 540p then scales up to 1400x1050p@60Hz
3) scales 720p to 1400x1050p @60Hz

Sound right?

If so, I wish that they could process sub-frames of the 1080i picture to at least do 3:2 pulldown detection. They wouldn't need that many more "areas" of definition to determine if 480i or 1080i are in 3:2 cadence.

In this case we wouldn't get 1080i deinterlacing (except for Bob), but we would get pulldown detection for 1080i film sources.

I don't know the Sil504 path so I have no idea what it would take to do this. Just commenting.
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post #184 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 05:52 AM
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Josh,

I got my HD+ last week. Should I return it now before 30 days are up?

Pablo
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post #185 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 05:57 AM
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Sounds right to me occ. I'm going to input my Denon at 480 i or p (will try both ways) via component. I'm going to input both the cable box and HDTV OTA receivers at 720p over DVI (and will try 480i), and output via a single hdmi to dvi cable to the projector at native resolution of 1400 x 1050 @ 60hz. Should be a very clean setup.

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post #186 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 06:20 AM
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I just hate trying to get a setup that will last a while and losing the 1080i->1080p conversion. Your HDTV settop will be scaling the 1080i to 720p, and I'd like to get the scaler to do that instead. It is my understanding that most all non -CRT based sets are doing the 1080i->540p bob and I wanted to do a little better than that. Maybe its not practical. Dragonfly does it though, don't they?
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post #187 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyN View Post

Jason,

I'll email you as well, but figure others will ask: will the AVS preorder special allow for trade in value for the current DVDO processors?

Working on that as well.
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post #188 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 06:46 AM
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Yes but Dragonfly won't support our output resolution so doesn't matter. I was fully prepared to spend the $2500 for the Dragonfly because it addresses the video deinterlacing issue, but amazingly it doesn't support an established DILA resolution. Still astounded by this oversight.

I'm a little confused about the cable situation with the SX50. It has a DVI-I input (DVI-D plus DVI-A). But why would you need the DVI-A part of this and wouldn't it just be simpler to use an HDMI to DVI-D cable?

Josh, would there be any DVI-A output through the HDMI port of the VP30?

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post #189 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 06:52 AM
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That still puts me on the fence, I may see if they get to variable output resolutions on the dragonfly.
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post #190 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 06:55 AM
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The Realta chip with HQV and the Gennum chip both do that. So any deinterlacing product using either of those chips would be expected to do that. Yes. the Dragonfly, with uses the Realta chip and which rumor has as using an input/output modified version of the Silicon Optix (Realta) demonstration board, will do that but it isn't on the market yet.

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post #191 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh@dvdo View Post

Here are the main differences between the VP30 and the HD/HD+:

4 HDMI Inputs and 1 HDMI Output (Audio/Video)

HD and HD+ have 1 DVI input and 1 DVI output

Precision Video Scaling II - 10-bit scaling, non-linear scaling, enhanced sharpness control

HD and HD+ use Precision Video Scaling (I) which is 9-bit

12-bit Video Decoder (480p/576p/720p/1080i)

HD and HD+ use 10-bit Video Decoder (VP30 does for 480i and 576i)

BNC input and output capable of RGBHV or Component

HD and HD+ have HD15 connectors capable of RGBHV or Component

RGBHV Input is processed and transcoded

HD and HD+ pass through on HD15 input

Component HD is processed and transcoded

HD and HD+ pass through 720p and 1080i on Component inputs

Elegant front panel design
Analog Audio Input

That's very helpful. Looking forward to my email from Jason as well.





Quote:
Originally Posted by PabloReiter View Post

Josh,

I got my HD+ last week. Should I return it now before 30 days are up?

Pablo

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Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #192 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

I remember your other post earlier stating that universal maxim of consumer electronics: "There's always something bigger and better around the corner."

Touche!!

That will teach me to post in a public place, huh????

I guess my initial reaction was that DVDO will actually ship the VP30 this fall as promised - but we will have to wait and see.

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post #193 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by GEBrown View Post

Touche!!

That will teach me to post in a public place, huh????

I guess my initial reaction was that DVDO will actually ship the VP30 this fall as promised - but we will have to wait and see.



I believe that it IS shipping this Fall, is it not? The pre-order cutoff is 9-15 and it would ship a short time after that? Or did I miss something?

BTW, very informative read on the last page or so with the discussion of 8-bit, 10- bit, etc.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #194 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 07:37 AM
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I've read this entire thread, gone over the specs on the new VP30, but what is the significance of the "30" in the product name?

Thanks

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post #195 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GEBrown View Post

I've read this entire thread, gone over the specs on the new VP30, but what is the significance of the "30" in the product name?

Thanks

Good question. Maybe it's as significant as "Xbox360"?

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #196 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GEBrown View Post

I've read this entire thread, gone over the specs on the new VP30, but what is the significance of the "30" in the product name?

Thanks

4 pages on, and someone articulates a question that was on my mind but never thought to ask.

And while we are at it, what is the significance of the "VP"?
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post #197 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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VP = Video Processor

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post #198 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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30 = Third Generation (HD was first, HD+ was second gen)

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post #199 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh@dvdo View Post

30 = Third Generation (HD was first, HD+ was second gen)

Thanks yet again.

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post #200 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 08:25 AM
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Yep, thanks from here too.

I had figured out the VP, just not the other.

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post #201 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 10:07 AM
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A bit off-topic, but I have an extra SDI-601 module. If anyone needs one, give me a shout.
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post #202 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonydeluce View Post

If you chopped off the two LSBs you have the following values:
4, 5, 6, ... 1022, 1023.
in this case you throw away only four of the values.

Understood?

Put simply, how are you claiming that 5 and 6 are encoded in this case?

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post #203 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 10:35 AM
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This may be an odd question, but are the picture control settings on the VP30 going to have identical values to the HD+?

If I have currently calibrated Video Source #1 on the HD+ to have Brightness = 5, Contrast = 10, and Saturation = 15, will those same values equate to the VP30, or will I have to recalibrate for each source? I have a lot of video sources connected to my HD+, and the thought of have to recalibrate all of them is daunting.

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post #204 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 10:53 AM
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Darin,

OT

As an embedded systems designer for hardware/firmware I've resisted the temptation to jump into that discussion its too OT. It's just plain way off and we'll leave it at that.

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post #205 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by collinp View Post

Tossing out LSBs or MSBs is not important. 8 bits holds 256 discrete states period. You can assume that you've got the two bottom bits perpetually held at zero and keep your original 10 bit range, but you've still got only 256 states ranging from 0 to 1024. You'd have for example, 0, 4, 8, ... , 1016, 1020, 1024.

I see where you're going with the voltage = distance analogy. What you are talking about is whether the 256 states are used for maximum range or maximum resolution. In the toss out the MSBs case you can measure in increments of .1 inches of distance, but can only cover a range of 25.6 inches. In the toss out the LSBs case you can measure 102.4 inches, but only in increments of .4 inches of distance.

Now you are correct to assume you will toss out the LSBs in video conversion. This is the extra detail that your bit depth was buying you. If you toss out the MSBs you would clip all your upper IREs. For instance, if you tossed out the upper 2 bits of your 10 bit source, video codes 256-1024 (dark gray to 100% white) would suddenly all become 255 (100% white) in 8 bit space.

Since the most important 480i source, DVD, is only 8 bit video the Sil504's 8 bit input path should suffice. Any DVD player which claims to output higher than 8 bit video is doing some processing which you would probably rather have the iScan do.

One of the bigger problems in video is the cascade of potential rounding errors when extra resolution used in a processing stage needs to be thrown away when data is passed to another processing stage. For example, you multiply two 8 bit input values creating potentially 16 bits of intermediate resolution. You then have to round this value down to 8 bits before sending it on to the scaler. With 10 bits you could preserve some of this extra resolution on the way to the scaler. This extra 2 bits of resolution from the Sil504 should help the scaling section do a better job now that it's fully 10 bit friendly.

The Sil504 is an SD deinterlacer as far as I know. On the HD+ 1080i is not deinterlaced with 3:2 pulldown detection or a motion adaptive algorithm. It is a simple BOB deinterlace. I believe this is done by the scaling engine rather than the Sil504. This is likely still true on the VP30. Since the scaling engine is now 10 bit any HD sources should have a full 10 bit data path through this box. The only 8 bit bottleneck seems to be for interlaced SD sources. For all practical purposes this looks like a full 10 bit box to me.

The real drawbacks are that it appears we still don't have an edge adaptive deinterlacer for 480i or a film mode, motion adaptive, edge adaptive deinterlacer for 1080i. This is still a cool box... 4 HDMIs, analog audio in, YPbPr digital output, 10 bit data path, and non-linear stretch all sound pretty sweet to me. I'm definitely upgrading.

- Collin

Thanks for the clarification and that is exactly the point I was trying to make...

The 1080i de-interlacing isn't important to me at this point since I won't have
a display that supports a 1080p input for at least 8 months. Therefore this
product should work out great for me. 4 HMDI and audio/video sync along
with the 480i upscaling are great features for my application.

 

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post #206 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonydeluce View Post

The lowest two LSBs only differentiate the four lowest values, i.e. 00, 01, 10, 11 as follows:
xxxxxxxx00, xxxxxxxx01, xxxxxxxx10, xxxxxxxx11

But they throw away the four lowest values for every number. How do you distinguish between 1023 and 1022? You can't. In fact, you cannot distinguish between 1023, 1022, 1021, and 1020 since the top 8 bits will all be the same. In a fixed-point representation, resolution is exactly the same as dynamic range.

Quote:


Throwing them away still leaves 2 to the 10th minus 2 to the 2nd states , i.e.
1024 - 4 = 1020 distinct states treating the lower two bits as "don't care"
values for processing which gives xxxxxxxxdd ( the lower 2 bits don't have
to be stored or directly processed but we loose four values of resolution out
of 1024 ).

OK, think about this another way: 8 bits can unambiguously represent 256 discrete levels. 256 is much less than 1020. So how is 1020 levels 8 bits?

--Andre
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post #207 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by occammd View Post

Darin,

OT

As an embedded systems designer for hardware/firmware I've resisted the temptation to jump into that discussion its too OT. It's just plain way off and we'll leave it at that.


It's a bit technical, but how is it off topic? I've found the discussions in this thread to be VERY informative and I wouldn't want it to change whatsoever.

Keep it up, guys! These are the kinds of free lessons I come to AVS for!

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post #208 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 11:37 AM
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The VP30 sounds like a nice incremental improvement over the HD+. Since it includes the same deinterlacing chip as the HD+ they should have called it the HD++. If this had been out a few months ago, I probably would not have pre-ordered the Dragonfly. But as it stands, I'm still planning to go through with the Dragonfly purchase.


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post #209 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 12:24 PM
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Q,
OK, If it doesn't seem to bother anyone else then I'm all for it.


Dan,
I asked a question and received a voicemail stating that the Algolith will support custom resolutions in the next phase. They will have dates in the next week or so. I think I'll wait for a bit, although the DVDO price and customer service is just plain excellent. I just really want more than a 540p Bob out of all of this equipment.
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post #210 of 6819 Old 08-15-2005, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by occammd View Post

Q,
OK, If it doesn't seem to bother anyone else then I'm all for it.



Quote:


Dan,
I asked a question and received a voicemail stating that the Algolith will support custom resolutions in the next phase. They will have dates in the next week or so. I think I'll wait for a bit, although the DVDO price and customer service is just plain excellent. I just really want more than a 540p Bob out of all of this equipment.

Are these newer processors going to be shown at the upcoming CEDIA convention in September? That certainly could yield us some more fruitful information going in.

BTW, I think Bland's question got lost a page ago: Does this new Iscan do 1080p24sf?

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