HQV: Vantage-HD processor - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 815 Old 10-05-2005, 10:00 AM
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http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=588136

Please let me know on this.
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post #182 of 815 Old 10-05-2005, 10:35 AM
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Jason, count me in! :D

Quote:
I'm talking about things like 1080i60, 1080p60 and 1080p24sf, which are video connection formats. There definately IS such a thing as "60i". It's a commonly used term which refers to formats with 60 interlaced fields. I just did a google search for "480i60 60i" and the first usable link coming up is from Algolith here:
I'm confused by all of this terminology. Being a PC guy, we generally refer to resolutions as

horizontal res X vertical res @ refresh rate (per second)

Progressive is assumed unless interlace is specified.

So I really don't know what 1080p24sf means. I would assume that it is something along the line of 1920X1080 progressive at 24 frames per second, but the "sf" throws me off. If it were "fs" instead, then I would figure that it means "frames per second". And why is the "i" used sometimes before the 60 (as in 480i60) and sometimes after the 60 (as in your quote above)? Shouldn't the "i" always be before the refresh number?

Quote:
I just did a google search for "480i60 60i"...
Wouldn't that be a bit redundant?

And what is the difference between 1080p24sf and 1080p24 (without the "sf")?

Or is this some sort of European nomenclature? :p

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post #183 of 815 Old 10-05-2005, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk
For sure if they support 1080p24sf output - future Ruby/existing Qualia owners, let our voices be heard!


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post #184 of 815 Old 10-05-2005, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel
So I really don't know what 1080p24sf means. I would assume that it is something along the line of 1920X1080 progressive at 24 frames per second, but the "sf" throws me off. If it were "fs" instead, then I would figure that it means "frames per second".
No, it means "segmented frame". It's 1920x1080 with 24fps, but each frame is splitted into two interlaced subfields, which however belong together and are (AFAIK) signed somehow so that everybody knows which two subfields form one frame.

Honestly, I don't know why this "segmented frame" format was invented in the first place. Why didn't they use straight 1080p24 (1920x1080 with 24fps)? Probably there is a good reason for that, I just don't know it.

Just found those two links, in case you want to know more about this:

http://www.tech-notes.tv/Jim/Articles/24vs48sF.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progres...egmented_Frame

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Originally Posted by Bob Sorel
And why is the "i" used sometimes before the 60 (as in 480i60) and sometimes after the 60 (as in your quote above)? Shouldn't the "i" always be before the refresh number?
Often people just speak about 1080i and 1080p without noting the frames per second. So you just add the fps number behind that. Ok, so why don't we write "i60", but "60i"? Honestly, I don't know why... :) It's just the way it is. Perhaps it's just nicer speaking out "60Hz interlaced" than saying "interlaced 60Hz". Don't know.

I've also seen "1080i/60" and "1080/60i" being used. Those are the same as "1080i60".

It gets even better. Pioneer writes into their manual "1080p@24Hz". I don't know whether they mean 1080p24 or 1080p24sf.

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Originally Posted by Bob Sorel
Wouldn't that be a bit redundant?
Yes. But you know google. If I had searched for "60i" alone, I would have got 2 fantastillion hits. So I added "480i60" to reduce the hit count.
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post #185 of 815 Old 10-05-2005, 11:39 AM
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Thanks, madshi, that clears things up...sort of.

It sure would be nice if the industry would adopt a single reference nomenclature and be done with it, but I guess that would make things too easy.

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post #186 of 815 Old 10-05-2005, 01:33 PM
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I think the idea of segmented frame is so that an interlaced frame receiver can recieve and display what amounts to a progressive signal without having to have a de-interlacer.
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post #187 of 815 Old 10-05-2005, 02:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
Honestly, I don't know why this "segmented frame" format was invented in the first place. Why didn't they use straight 1080p24 (1920x1080 with 24fps)? Probably there is a good reason for that, I just don't know it.

.
This is a method by which progressive frames masquerade as interlaced (odd and even) fields, so to take advantage of a serial digital protocol, that already existed.
Sony uses a small "s" subscript 23.98PsF

Also: no one really does 30/60i frames per second, and use 29.97/59.94i,
so it's the same for progressive ie 23.98P instead of 24P

thomas
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post #188 of 815 Old 10-05-2005, 02:43 PM
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1080P 24sf is one thing. SF is not interchangeable with HZ. HZ is for the refresh rate. Most resolutions are specified in A x B etc. A specifici line rate is specified at i or p with a refresh rate. So give me 1080p 60HZ for video on my CRT and 1080p 72HZ for film. The Sony is a special animal. It wants 1080p 24SF or 1080 24PsF. SF means segmented frames. For home theater 60i and 60p are irrelevant. The lowest anybody uses is 480i. Then came 480p. Now we use 720p, 765 or 768p, 960p, 1080i, 1080p.

BTW Is there a difference etween 1080p 24SF or 1080 24PsF?

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post #189 of 815 Old 10-05-2005, 03:12 PM
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Thanks for the link to wikipedia madshi, I just made the assumption it mean 1080p, and the 24PsF was just some fancy jargon they like to slap onto specs to make it sound impressive.

Like 'High Definition', I guess coming from the PC world, these terms just sound like marketing drones giving a name to something is just a **** resolution :)
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post #190 of 815 Old 10-05-2005, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
Honestly, I don't know why this "segmented frame" format was invented in the first place. Why didn't they use straight 1080p24 (1920x1080 with 24fps)? Probably there is a good reason for that, I just don't know it.
Hi, Madshi!

I believe it was forum user Glimmie who commented on the origins of 1080/24PsF. He explained that his firm worked with Sony (I believe) and others to create a format that would allow the studios to deal with ABC, and their insistence on 720p video! The problem was that no one wanted to create dual masters for both 720p and 1080i, so the solution was found in the intermediate 1080/24PsF format. This allowed the studios to create a single HD transfer, and then to convert it to either 720p or 1080i via a simple post-processing step on the 1080/24PsF master.

I believe that Glimmie also mentioned a couple of other significant benefits for 1080/24PsF, in the minds of its creators. One, it was easier to display on CRTs that had been designed for 1080i, and two was that the format was automatically compatible with much of the installed base of production equipment.

Hopefully, I've attributed the proper information to the proper source! ;)

Have Fun!
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post #191 of 815 Old 10-05-2005, 05:50 PM
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From the mind of a Noob (Newbie)... I was wondering....

1) Would a modern HTPC video-card (e.g. Nvidia GeForce 6600) do an equally good job at processing video? (head-to-head, would the Vantage-HD win? I assume "yes")

2) When using the Vantage-HD, where would a DVR fit into the mix?
2a) Satellite ==> Vantage-HD ==> DVR ==> AVR ==> DLP 1080p TV (or)
2b) Satellite ==> DVR ==> Vantage-HD ==> AVR ==> DLP 1080p TV

I just realized there are not many (if at all!) HDMI video input cards for the HTPC market; so "2a" above is not likely.
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post #192 of 815 Old 10-05-2005, 07:36 PM
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I have contacted the company lobbying for 1080 24PsF for all the Sony owners out there. I am selfish in doing so because I suspect I will be able to sell considerably more of these if it accomodates the Qualia 004 and the new Ruby.

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post #193 of 815 Old 10-05-2005, 08:11 PM
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Hi, KDossett!

From experience with a Qualia, both the 6600 and the 7800 GTX suck when delivering 1080/24PsF, at least to this machine. The problem is that between the video card and the projector, nothing appears to be happening as far as progressive reconstruction goes - the resulting image has tons of interlace artifacts. Whether it's nVidia or Sony I can't yet tell, but this combination acts like plain-old 48i - all the disadvantages of an interlaced display, and slow refresh, too! ;)

Sorry!
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post #194 of 815 Old 10-05-2005, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich
I have contacted the company lobbying for 1080 24PsF for all the Sony owners out there. I am selfish in doing so because I suspect I will be able to sell considerably more of these if it accomodates the Qualia 004 and the new Ruby.
Good stuff Mark. I hope they recognize the value it will bring to their processor.


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post #195 of 815 Old 10-05-2005, 11:32 PM
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Thanks guys for the segmented frame explanations... :)
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post #196 of 815 Old 10-06-2005, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KDossett
From the mind of a Noob (Newbie)... I was wondering....
1) Would a modern HTPC video-card (e.g. Nvidia GeForce 6600) do an equally good job at processing video? (head-to-head, would the Vantage-HD win? I assume "yes")
I was wondering that, too. AIUI, the nVidia 6600, 6800 & 7800 have "Pure Video" which uses per-pixel motion adaptive and inverse tele-cine de-interlacing, similar to a proper VP.

I suspect that full 1080i60 to 1080p60 de-interlacing is too much for the 6-series GPUs, but a few people have suggested that the 7800's level of performance is up there. I know it's only a matter of time, but I wasn't sure if we were there yet. How it might compare with a proper HD VP would be very interesting.

Nick
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post #197 of 815 Old 10-06-2005, 05:40 AM
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the latest Nvidia driver release (81.84 iirc) enables HDTV deinterlacing on the 6600 and faster GPUs:


Quote:
Release 80 includes the following new PureVideo features and improvements:
• Improved inverse 3:2 implementation
• Improved inverse 2:2 implementation
• Adaptive Deinterlacing for HD content on GeForce 6600 and high GPUs
• PureVideo support for the next generation of GPUs
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post #198 of 815 Old 10-06-2005, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick
How it might compare with a proper HD VP would be very interesting.
Anandtech did a report on NVIDIA and ATI's de-interlacing tech using HQV DVD benchmark.
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post #199 of 815 Old 10-06-2005, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYew
It depends. Each video field at NTSC is 16.7 milliseconds, and Realta literature has said that they examine up to four fields, making a potential delay of 66.7 msec. But I've read elsewhere that Realta processing could be much longer than that, which then denied by one of our forum members. Also processing time could be variable depending on what processing needs to be done: it could be different for different sources, or even different TV channels.

--Andre
True- Realta may buffer up to 4 fields to do appropriate processing, but it also has fully programmable audio delay so that there need not be any "lip sync" problems.
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post #200 of 815 Old 10-06-2005, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KDossett
1) Would a modern HTPC video-card (e.g. Nvidia GeForce 6600) do an equally good job at processing video? (head-to-head, would the Vantage-HD win? I assume "yes").
Last I heard, the answer is no. But that was a year ago.

I remember reading a year ago that there is nothing in the PC market that can match the processing power of an HQV or Genuum chip. Even if the new PC video cards can process HD digital video, it still would not be able to run the amount of algorithms at the same speed as lets say a Realta chip can. For SD, we all know they are both capable.

That was a year ago. Have the new upcoming ATI and NVIDIA cards improved in that regard.? Looking at the rumored specs, I would think not.
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post #201 of 815 Old 10-06-2005, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
True- Realta may buffer up to 4 fields to do appropriate processing, but it also has fully programmable audio delay so that there need not be any "lip sync" problems.
Andre's answer was in regard to my question about using the Lex for any and all lipsync correction, and not using the audio connectors on the Vantage. I have quite a few sources, so the Vantage simply does not provide enough audio connects to satisfy my needs, not to mention all of the extra cables necessary for this type of audio routing. If the Lex's lipsync delay has sufficient range to handle the delays created within the Vantage, this would be a much simpler and more effective solution for me.

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post #202 of 815 Old 10-06-2005, 03:06 PM
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nevermind, just not enough info to tell
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post #203 of 815 Old 10-06-2005, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Have these guys changed their minds on 1080P24sF???


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post #204 of 815 Old 10-06-2005, 05:05 PM
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Jeff. I will post re the results of my lobbying. I am in communications with them by phone and e-mail. I should know something in a few days.

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post #205 of 815 Old 10-06-2005, 05:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Mark...I feel like a whining child...

There are a lot of Qualia and potential Ruby owners who'd like this resolution..That'll be alot of projectors!


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post #206 of 815 Old 10-06-2005, 05:46 PM
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That was my pitch to them. I'll sell a lot more of these if it has that resolution. Selling a lot is good for them and me. Then I can afford to invite everybody over for beer, pizza, soda, candy, popcorn etc. You know the stuff we have HTs for.

Seriously, it is one thing to have this resolution and another to implemented it well so that it isn't easily tripped up by bad edits, etc.

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post #207 of 815 Old 10-06-2005, 06:48 PM - Thread Starter
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My impression of things when I spoke with them at CEDIA was they had no idea that any projector accepted this resolution. Very nice people though.


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post #208 of 815 Old 10-06-2005, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich
Seriously, it is one thing to have this resolution and another to implemented it well so that it isn't easily tripped up by bad edits, etc.
And that's the problem. Many consumer scaler manufactures don't understand the subtle aspects of 1080/24sF from what I have learned. I keep hear it being refered to as 48i. Well that assumption will get you less than optimum results.

This is a published SMPTE format. There is no reason it can't be done correctly. So far the broadcast equipment manufactures have done so.

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post #209 of 815 Old 10-06-2005, 07:08 PM
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Who broadcast in 1080/24sF? I see 1080i/60 only. How to handle bad edit from 1080i/60 to 1080/24sF? Or there is no bad edit to begin with?

I say we need 1080p/72hz processed output! :D

regards,

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post #210 of 815 Old 10-06-2005, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Li On
Who broadcast in 1080/24sF? I see 1080i/60 only. How to handle bad edit from 1080i/60 to 1080/24sF? Or there is no bad edit to begin with?

I say we need 1080p/72hz processed output! :D

regards,

Li On
Nothing is broadcast in 1080/24sF and it won't be. HD-DVDand BluRay may in fact output 1080/24sF but I don't know for sure.

You should never have a "bad edit" in a 1080/60i conversion fron 1080/24sF. That is because the conversion is done in the dubbing process. The 1080/24sF master must contain all changes.

Now some local TV station may edit in a commercial and break up the cadance but what can you do? The processor will just hickup.

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