Belkin launch "in cable" video processor - PureAV RazorVision - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey Jones
Has anyone used the Razorvision with a plasma ? If so I would appreciate hearing your findings. :)

Will let you know. My father is picking one up on his way down from New Hampshire on Saturday. I will try it between my Ultra and Panny plasma
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post #92 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile
Just tried it in front of the HD+ and the result was.....................yuk!!! Much worse than a straight through signal with no processing at all.

Going back tomorrow.

One more question, in general, based off this:

Since the cable has a mini video processor in it, wouldn't this little VP conflict with any other VP you might connect it to, thus producing undesireable results?

In your case, you had two VP's competing with each other, yes?

I can't imagine that ever yielding good results, but again, that's simply my uneducated guess going into it. Byte, Joe, and some of the others here can tell me the truth on that up or down.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #93 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ
One more question, in general, based off this:

Since the cable has a mini video processor in it, wouldn't this little VP conflict with any other VP you might connect it to, thus producing undesireable results?

In your case, you had two VP's competing with each other, yes?

I can't imagine that ever yielding good results, but again, that's simply my uneducated guess going into it. Byte, Joe, and some of the others here can tell me the truth on that up or down.
I don't know how to describe it in the proper technical terms. But purely from the perspective of an amateur observer:
The contrast was very high, the overall brightness a lot lower. The picture was very 'blocky', I don't mean that you could see the individual pixels but it seemed very harsh with sharp edges and abrupt changes of contrast/clour/brightness. The smooth filmlike appearance I normally see was completely missing. When I pulled up the Cable channel guide the letters were poorly formed it looked like every other horizontal pixel line was missing. I cannot post any photos becasue I have already packed it up for return..

However, when I take out the HD+ and just leave it all to the Belkin then that is a 'better' picture than just taking the straight cable signal.
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post #94 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile
I don't know how to describe it in the proper technical terms. But purely from the perspective of an amateur observer:
The contrast was very high, the overall brightness a lot lower. The picture was very 'blocky', I don't mean that you could see the individual pixels but it seemed very harsh with sharp edges and abrupt changes of contrast/clour/brightness. The smooth filmlike appearance I normally see was completely missing. When I pulled up the Cable channel guide the letters were poorly formed it looked like every other horizontal pixel line was missing. I cannot post any photos becasue I have already packed it up for return..

However, when I take out the HD+ and just leave it all to the Belkin then that is a 'better' picture than just taking the straight cable signal.
Very interesting. It didn't need to be too techincal to get the idea across. ;)

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #95 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 12:00 PM
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In looking at the quick demo it appears to me that it adds noise while enhancing the contrast/brightness, something you could easily do yourself. The "unenhanced" picture is actually cleaner in terms of fewer artifacts. There is more detail, as the "unenhanced" picture looks strangely blurred in spots. In fact I have never seen that much blurring in any DVD or HD program, which makes me wonder if the demo was doctored.

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post #96 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901
In looking at the quick demo it appears to me that it adds noise while enhancing the contrast/brightness, something you could easily do yourself. The "unenhanced" picture is actually cleaner in terms of fewer artifacts. There is more detail, as the "unenhanced" picture looks strangely blurred in spots. In fact I have never seen that much blurring in any DVD or HD program, which makes me wonder if the demo was doctored.
I'll let you know tomorrow. ;)

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #97 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven
Looking at test patterns is revealing, and it isn't pretty.

If you were to go strictly by what the process does to test patterns, you might conclude the process is a waste of time.

Looking at content is a different matter, and although I do not like the processing, I can see how some might.
Throw up a gray scale pattern if you get a chance. Yuk.

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post #98 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doseofrealta
Throw up a gray scale pattern if you get a chance. Yuk.

You're not filling me with glowing confidence going into this thing tomorrow...

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #99 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doseofrealta
Throw up a gray scale pattern if you get a chance. Yuk.
The grayscale or even the SMPTE bars patterns let you see more clearly how RazorVision adds a shadow treatment to the lighter side of dark/light contrast area.

Switching between LOW, MID & HI is pretty dramatic.

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post #100 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901
In looking at the quick demo it appears to me that it adds noise while enhancing the contrast/brightness, something you could easily do yourself. The "unenhanced" picture is actually cleaner in terms of fewer artifacts. There is more detail, as the "unenhanced" picture looks strangely blurred in spots. In fact I have never seen that much blurring in any DVD or HD program, which makes me wonder if the demo was doctored.
Your observation echos what I saw and concluded. I suggested the device seems to look best on a poorly calibrated display, but I also think your obsevarion about feeding an overly soft image to the device is fair.

I am starting to wonder how the device might work on a really poor SD cable broadcast or VHS tape source. I wish I had thought to try a really poor source signal with the RazorVision. Maybe the treatment on the LOW setting would have made an improvement.

I don't see the benefit on DVD or HD sources, as RazorVision undermines too many of the fundamental characteristics of the source image.

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post #101 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ
You're not filling me with glowing confidence going into this thing tomorrow...
I'm interested in reading your observations. You call always return the unit if it fails to carve out a niche in your HT setup.

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post #102 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 04:02 PM
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Well, I have it hooked up and I can't really add anything that hasn't already been mentioned. Only used it on some HDNet movie material so far and anything other than the lowest setting is just too nasty, too constrasty, too edgy. Tried with a DVD, Battlestar Galactica, which is probably not a good choice as it's shot with a lot of contrast anyway, but I did not like what I saw. It was rather odd, when using the split screen the "enhanced" side just kept getting darker and darker as you increased effect, not sure why that was happening as with the HD material it did just the opposite.

I'm going to spend some more time with it and use some high quality HD and DVD material and I'm very interested in what it does with live sports, like football this weekend.

I can't imagine, from my perspective anyway, that anything other than the lowest setting would even come close to being acceptable. As others have noted, some user control over what this thing is actually doing would make it a much nicer product and might possibly even really enhance the end result.

Using a Denon 5900/w-SDI and a HD-TiVo>VP30>Mits 73" RPTV.

The cables are nice.. ;)
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post #103 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 04:14 PM
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I guess an obvious question is what it's impact is on SD?

Why even bother on an already refined HD at 1080i. I'm totally satisfied with my HD on my Sharp panel my interest is in the SD and digitals that fall below HD.

I don't quite understand daisy chaining this device and teaming it with a high end VP as they cannot sync anything it seems you could only get Yuck or get lucky with a particular panel tuner - perhaps that's why we're seeing so much variance in feedback. :)

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post #104 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westa6969
I guess an obvious question is what it's impact is on SD?

Why even bother on an already refined HD at 1080i. I'm totally satisfied with my HD on my Sharp panel my interest is in the SD and digitals that fall below HD.
Same here.

Quote:
I don't quite understand daisy chaining this device and teaming it with a high end VP as they cannot sync anything it seems you could only get Yuck or get lucky with a particular panel tuner - perhaps that's why we're seeing so much variance in feedback. :)
My uneducated opinion on that, based on what I've read here, sounds like two video processors conflicting with each other.

It seems like every person who already has a VP and daisy chained it with these Belkin cables came away with unfavorable results.



Going in, your questions are the same that I have.

It doesn't seem like people with VP's are going to get anything from this, based on what I've read in this thread, at least. It doesn't seem like there's any point in people who already have VP's to buy one of these things based on the feedback we've read in this thread thus far.









Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven
The grayscale or even the SMPTE bars patterns let you see more clearly how RazorVision adds a shadow treatment to the lighter side of dark/light contrast area.

Switching between LOW, MID & HI is pretty dramatic.
Something tells me that going past LOW probably isn't going to be a good idea...


Quote:
Your observation echos what I saw and concluded. I suggested the device seems to look best on a poorly calibrated display, but I also think your obsevarion about feeding an overly soft image to the device is fair.
Since my display is ISF calibrated, and I'm often surprised at just what I can see on it...this is where I begin to see that yellow flag of caution go up as I go into this tomorrow.

Quote:
I am starting to wonder how the device might work on a really poor SD cable broadcast or VHS tape source. I wish I had thought to try a really poor source signal with the RazorVision. Maybe the treatment on the LOW setting would have made an improvement.
I can kind of test this tomorrow. I can use the cable here and I know a few analog stations that are truly trashy.

Quote:

I don't see the benefit on DVD or HD sources, as RazorVision undermines too many of the fundamental characteristics of the source image.
That's almost certainly going to be a kiss of death for me on the product if I see the same thing.

Quote:

I'm interested in reading your observations. You call always return the unit if it fails to carve out a niche in your HT setup.
I've got nothing to lose except a little time, in the end. It's just too intrugiing and easy to get to not give it a try. ;)

I'd rather take something like this for a test whirl vs. a $2000+ video processor. (Although, most of these companies give you a 30 day window, which is quite equitable.)

Regardless of how it all shakes out, I'm really excited to start seeing products like this show up and I certainly hope to see more like it. This VP market desperately needs some giant killers, some "Momitsus and Oppos", and market shakers, so to speak.

It would be awesome if, someday, we really could get the perks of a good VP just in one cable. The potential here on a product like this is exciting. Hats off to Belkin for trying it.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #105 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ
The potential here on a product like this is exciting. Hats off to Belkin for trying it.
I would love to see someone close to the company, inquire about the USB port, and ask if it might be possible to use a utility to reprogram the device parameters.

They included the USB port for a reason.

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post #106 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven
I would love to see someone close to the company, inquire about the USB port, and ask if it might be possible to use a utility to reprogram the device parameters.

They included the USB port for a reason.
THAT would be great!

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #107 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 08:17 PM
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Belkin will soon be releasing a downloadable application which will allow users to customize and store processing parameters for any of the three enhancement settings (accomlished via the USB port) . As you can imagine, with a seemingly infinite number of source/display combinations available, and given the extremely subjective nature of the effects of the processing, it is quite impossible to satisfy all conditions/users with just three hardcoded settings.

Ultimately, it is quite possible that access to many of the 100+ registers in the DV1000 will be permitted, enabling advanced users to fine-tune most aspects of the processing to individual tastes.
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post #108 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3lions
Will let you know. My father is picking one up on his way down from New Hampshire on Saturday. I will try it between my Ultra and Panny plasma
Thanks. Looking forward to your review. :)
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post #109 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 08:51 PM
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NOTE: As an employee of DigiVision, I will make every effort to keep this post factual, and not stray into opinion.

History:
The DV1000 employed in the RazorVision enhancer is a sophisticated processor, with roots going back some number of years. We first introduced the technology into the medical field, in fluoroscopy and later in non-invasive surgery. It then found a secure home in military applications, in FLIR and other target-acquisition uses. Over the years the technology has been successfully used in undersea and other low-light/contrast applications. What started as a 55lb, $30,000 box, evolved into a single board and ultimately a single ASIC solution. We completed a limited test release of the technology into the CE market in the form of the (analog SD-only) HT-70e, which earned a very positive reception. DigiVision and Belkin worked together to bring the RazorVision to the CE market in a package which is affordable and permits excellent results without requiring an in-depth understanding of the underlying technology - ie., access to the masses.

The Processing:
The DV1000 employs patented unsharp mask technology to perform real-time contrast enhancement. This is not gamma sharpening or anything close to other simplistic global operations. The processing is truly locally-adaptive, meaning that each pixel is adjusted based on a large number of neighboring data. Classical "edge sharpeners" use convolution kernels on order of 7x3 or 11x7 pixels. This does a nice job of detecting edges and producing a very synthetic-looking image (ok, that's a bit subjective). Note also that these small-kernel processors work in only a small, high frequency range. This means that they must apply a large amount of gain to have a significant impact: also, most noise of the sort present in video data lives in this same range: ie., small kernel enhancers tend to significantly increase apparent noise in the resultant image. In contrast, the DV1000 operates with a far larger kernel - up to 10% of the width of the screen (and radially symmetric). This allows the processor to create a much larger gradient as it increases the contrast - the resultant image is very natural looking and is noticeably more 3D in appearance - creating a much more pleasing image. Additionally, since we operate on a much wider (and lower) frequency range, we don't need to add nearly so much gain to have a significant impact on the image: therefore the DV1000 tends to create a much cleaner picture (again, subjective! but physics is physics).

Will it work on SD and HD? Yes. In fact, the more pixels/resolution available to work with, the better. This is an advantage of using a large-kernel processor.

Kudos to those wondering what that USB port is for: Belkin does an extremely thorough job of market research, and determined months ago that "power users" would likely desire the ability to adjust parameters to their own liking. This is coming (the ability to perform flash upgrades to the firmware is imminent: you would be amazed at the number of source/display manufacturers out there who do not adhere to the HDMI/DVI/EDID specifications - and the "middleware" inevitably receives all the blame, meaning we have to cover their mistakes :) ).

One final note: the current RazorVision supports all popular SD/HD formats (no 1080p).

-rsm
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post #110 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 09:50 PM
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rsm, thanks for the insight. Would the DV1000 be capable of supporting the WXGA resolution of 1366x768 with a firmware upgrade?

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is." - Yogi Berra
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post #111 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 09:51 PM
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Kudos to you rsmDV and DigiVision.

It looks like I will have to repurchase the RazorVision. ;-)

Will the parameter utility be available in both the Apple and Microsoft OS?

You might consider offering as many alternative preprogrammed settings as possible. It would be great if the programming utility could save settings on the host computer, so users could have a large number of program setups available for downloading.

When available, please post any links to info/manuals on the programming utility, as I'm sure many of us would like to become aquainted with the program even before it is made available.

If you are listening to other possible changes, I have one that might make the processor a better fit in some HT setups.

If the HDMI connections could be colocated on one long side, the device could more easily sit on an AV rack shelf or above another AV device such as a DVD player. Just a thought.

The current design is a perfect fit more many "in line" installations.

Perhaps you will offer an alternate version of the device which takes into consideration a different connection layout as well as some other features.

Thanks for visiting our AVS forums in support of your product. It will be greatly appreciated.

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post #112 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 10:28 PM
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The following plans are in place:

1. (done deal) Release a firmware updater that will permit easy and reliable updating of RazorVision firmware by a novice (no easy feat!).

2. (in development) Release a "Simple Customizer" that will allow the user to select from a variety of "prepackaged" custom settings, and store that selection(s) into the RazorVision.

3. (under serious consideration) Release a "Super-user Customizer" which will allow the user a far greater degree of customizability. This is a fairly involved process, as this application needs to "protect the user from themselves" in terms of not permitting an "under-informed" consumer to get him/herself into trouble with image settings which could create an unsuitable result.

Note also that the DV1000 was designed to accomodate 150MHz clock rates (ie., 1080p). However, at the time the design was finalized, 1080p was still in its infancy and it was not possible to predict with accuracy the availability of requisite HDMI receiver/transmitters - RazorVision is a true repeater in the sense that it decodes the encrypted digital data, processes it, and re-encodes/encrypts the output: it maintains two HDMI/DVI video links.

Chassis design: Belkin expended an enormous amount of resources in studying the ergonomics of the enclosure design. As usual, compromises had to be made to arrive at a final solution which balanced ergonomics with economics. As you have already alluded, the follow-on upgrade paths for this family of products has vast potential, and we are absolutely watching and listening with great interest as we finalize plans for our "next trick."

Finally, you are very welcome: while other demands do not always permit me to be a frequent visitor here, I will make every effort to drop by from time to time - RazorVision is creating tremendous interest from a wide range of users, and we are dedicated to ensuring that all interested parties obtain accurate (non-techno-babble, non-marketing-nonsense) information about RazorVision and what it does.
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post #113 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsmDV
Note also that the DV1000 was designed to accomodate 150MHz clock rates (ie., 1080p). However, at the time the design was finalized, 1080p was still in its infancy and it was not possible to predict with accuracy the availability of requisite HDMI receiver/transmitters - RazorVision is a true repeater in the sense that it decodes the encrypted digital data, processes it, and re-encodes/encrypts the output: it maintains two HDMI/DVI video links.
Will you be releasing a 1080p version in the near future?
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post #114 of 214 Old 12-22-2005, 10:51 PM
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I think the best/safest way to address your question is "Belkin is very aware of the increasing demand for 1080p-capable product. They are also very aware that the DV1000 can operate at the required clock speeds."

:)
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post #115 of 214 Old 12-23-2005, 07:52 AM
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Wow! When I get mine today, I guess I'm DEFINITELY keeping it at this rate!

I really appreciate you taking the time to lay out the facts for us, rsm.



EDIT: The Eagle has landed!

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #116 of 214 Old 12-23-2005, 05:22 PM
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I really appreciate you taking the time to lay out the facts for us, rsm.






Alright, so far, I've dug into this thing with Fifth Element Superbit as my experimental fodder via the Onkyo DV-SP 1000 upconverting to 1080i over HDMI to my Direct View ISF calibrated Sony KD34XBR960.

The split screen feature of the RV is quite useful and instructive for what happens. I'm alternating between my normal viewing distance and about 3 feet so I can reach the RV controls and toggle.

I can definitely tell you all that I would not go past the Low setting on this thing. Anything past that is just too much contrast and brightness and takes away from the purity and accuracy of the picture.

I can easily see where I'd want this RV connected via the USB cable so I could do some serious refinements. I do see the potential here and what it's trying to do with my picture. I don't dislike what I'm seeing, but anything past Low is simply no good to me. YMMV, but strongly suspect that anyone that uses this thing won't go past Low with it.

I do like what I'm seeing with the low settings and I'm deciding if I like it as much as the normal, no RV picture, which is pretty hard to beat coming out of the Onkyo 1000.

One thing that troubles me, even wth low setting, is I am seeing the introduction of more "video noise." It's noticeable, for example, in those first scenes with Bruce Willis's character, where he's bare chested.

To the RV's credit, I do see some details in the picture stand out more, and to see the video noise I'm at about three feet vs. my normal viewing distance, but it is something to be aware of. Again, perhaps refinement and customization would end those issues.




Next comes Avia... Any tips are appreciated, things to look for, tests to use, etc. would be appreciated. Obviously if I were going to return this thing, it won't happen until Monday, because of the Christmas weekend.


EDIT: What I'm seeing with this device, overall, even on Low, is I see contrast and sharpness go up at the expense of overall image depth and accuracy. It gets too sharp, too contrasty, and images start looking washed out.

It's very noticeable, again, in the opening scenes of Fifth Element Superbit in the pyramid, with the ligths, and the daylight coming in. If you use the split screen especially, and you compare default vs. even the low setting, the picture gets a boost in sharpness and contrast, but loses in other areas, namely that overall accuracy, depth, and clarity. It looks a little washed out where you would normally see fine details clear as day.

Long story short: My findings are essentially matching Bytehoven's.

I certainly remain enthusiastic about the potential behind this product, but I may return it for now and reconsider it a few months down the road when there have been further developments.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #117 of 214 Old 12-24-2005, 03:40 AM
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Q, how about some less-than-stellar material, like SD DirecTV or cable?

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post #118 of 214 Old 12-24-2005, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1920x1080
Q, how about some less-than-stellar material, like SD DirecTV or cable?
Same thing as what I wrote before.

To my eyes, I don't see much difference between using this vs. if I just pump up my own TV's brightness, sharpness, and contrast settings.

And edge enhancement, which is something I have turned off on my TV anyways, especially post ISF calibration. That's the last thing I want to see again and yet that's one thing that this product also brings back to the table: Edge enhancement and too much of it.



I KNOW that the product is doing more than just that, but quite frankly, those benefits are getting overruled at present by the effects I described before.

For SD material, it simply looks very soft and washed out, like one would expect if your sharpness, contrast, and brightness were set too high. Garbage in, garbage out certainly applies here.

I think I'm sending this back on Tuesday.

As is, it just isn't offering me any benefit. I've had several people tell me: "Try it with HD football this weekend!"

Ok, I might do that, since I can't get it out of here until Tuesday anyways, but I already know what I'm going to see: Jacked up contrast, sharpness, edge enhancement, and brightness.

Even if it does offer me some benefit on that, that's an awfully limited scope of benefit. I want a product that offers benefit for every application across the boards, and that simply isn't the case right now. I'm not going to keep a $250 product just because MAYBE HD football might get a little boost. That's not good enough.


Even the fans of this product indirectly admit it when they keep saying how great it looks with one or two applications. "HD football" etc. Why not everything?

I'm certainly not going to alter my display's perfect ISF settings to try and favor this device and compensate. I shouldn't have to! No one should. That's not a good sign when you feel you have to "calibrate to the RV." No way!



I like to have a NATURAL, accurate, and detailed picture and, in most cases, that's not what this product does, even on low setting.


Maybe a few months down the road, I'll take another look at it when they've really started to make use of the USB connection and some of the other thing rsm has alluded to.

The final word on it was when I brought in my mother and my sister, two non-videophiles if ever there, and blind tested them on default picture vs. the three settings of the Razor Vision on both the Onkyo 1000 and The HD Satellite box, with HD and SD material.

Obviously, I'd made up my own mind by this point that I prefer the default picture, but I kept my mouth shut and played my cards close to my chest with the two girls during this blind test.

Everyone liked the default picture without RazorVision the best, including me. I didn't influence them at all ahead of time and they had no idea which picture was which until it was all said and done.

So, it was unanimous: The picture without the RV was preferred by all.

So, given the holidays, I certainly can make better use of that $250+ in the here and now and we'll see where this product goes in the next 6 months or so.

I may give it another try down the road if I see a lot of developments made over that USB connection and I really start seeing glowing praise and word of mouth on forums like these and amongst professional reviewers, several of whom I've tipped off and asked them to try and get their hands on this RV to review at some point.

In the here and now, at least for me, I just don't see enough across the board benefit to merit keeping this and taking the $250+ hit for it.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #119 of 214 Old 12-24-2005, 08:05 AM
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I guess much of it does depend on your display. For me, I see a better benefit on my 120.5" screen. And for me, 250.00 to upgrade the NFL HD games is worth it. Especialy when you host the annual Superbowl Party...

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post #120 of 214 Old 12-24-2005, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
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I guess much of it does depend on your display.
I doubt it.

Example: Bytehoven's display couldn't be more different from mine and yet he came away with more or less the same impressions I have.

Quote:
For me, I see a better benefit on my 120.5" screen. And for me, 250.00 to upgrade the NFL HD games is worth it. Especialy when you host the annual Superbowl Party...
That's certainly fair enough, but don't you see the obvious increase in edge enhancement, sharpness, brightness, and contrast?

I can't believe people wouldn't notice that on any kind of display, if it's too much of those things.

Are you using the low setting? I certainly couldn't imagine anyone using anything higher than the low setting, that's for sure.

I don't think it's as much about the display vs. people's personal preferences and what they look for in a picture.

If you like a picture that's almost cartoon like, bright and extreme, those people probably would embrace this product immediately.

If you like natural and accurate, I can't see IN THE HERE AND NOW, how this product could appeal to those people.

Again, I know this product just came out and they have big plans for it, and I'm very eager to see that. I'm really not trying to bash the product, as I certainly do see the potential behind it, but I can only discuss the actual facts of HERE AND NOW.

Like I said, I'm going to have some fun with this until Tuesday. Really put it through its paces, but I have to to have more going for a near $300 investment than that kind of isolated and scattershot "benefit."

It needs to be all or nothing for me, Joe. :)

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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