Lumagen deinterlaces 1080i - finally - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 239 Old 02-11-2006, 04:57 AM
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General question out of curiosity:

Is the creator of 1080psf24 solely responsible for using matching fields as the two segments of each frame? (A no-brainer for a telecine machine.) In other words is 1080psf24 legal only when the segments in a frame match and the recipient can then rely on a simple weave and call that correct construction of the full video frame?

Question for Alan Gouger:

What did you see when the HDP, running at 48 fps in film mode, hit the bad edit? For example, did you start to get sporadic 3-1 pulldown thereafter? When you mentioned having to pause the video I trust the HDP did not lock up.

Allan

Remember when lines and logos burned the TV screen? I was at a concert where a musical selection made extremely heavy use of about four of the keys of the piano.
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post #92 of 239 Old 02-11-2006, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Jayne
Question for Alan Gouger:

What did you see when the HDP, running at 48 fps in film mode, hit the bad edit? For example, did you start to get sporadic 3-1 pulldown thereafter? When you mentioned having to pause the video I trust the HDP did not lock up.

Allan
The Lumagen did not lock up. The image went into strobe mode where it was dropping frames or looked like and old time movie with every other frame missing.
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post #93 of 239 Old 02-11-2006, 07:42 AM
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Justin,

G is effectively Film mode (not really sure what the difference is, but it could be a different cadence sequence).

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Ofer LaOr
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post #94 of 239 Old 02-11-2006, 07:45 AM
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Lumagen, excellent work!

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Ofer LaOr
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post #95 of 239 Old 02-11-2006, 10:10 AM
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I gave the new firmware a swirl last night and there is definitely an improvement on details with film material at good ole 720p 60 Hz. The improvement is marginal, but the image is much sharper than it was before and details are much more discernable. I didn’t think I’d notice it on a 720p display, so I’m pleasantly surprised.
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post #96 of 239 Old 02-11-2006, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
A suggestion on the 0918 F/V indicator. Any way to have it show a little more? Like what V or F mode it is actually in?
We might be able to add a little more--we have to keep it fairly minimal because we don't have a lot of memory bandwidth to work with in this particular mode though.
Quote:
Also, I have seen numerous occasions so far where obvious film material will flash back and forth (sometimes quite rapidly) between F and V, unrelated to any scene changes. So far this is seen mostly on OTA channels, 1080i in 1080p out.
Its not unusual to get some false detection where it jumps back and forth and so we do have some hysteresis on flipping between per-pixel and weave mode because of that.
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Can you tell me what it means when I see "G" as status?
You must have service mode enabled--- if you're not in service mode it will only show 'F' or 'V'. In service mode there are a few extra chars that we added to use as a diagnostic tool and 'G' also indicates film.

Patrick Harkin, Lumagen Inc. engineer
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post #97 of 239 Old 02-12-2006, 12:47 AM
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patrick,

Does this work on all inputs, including analog HD component & DVI?

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Ofer LaOr
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post #98 of 239 Old 02-12-2006, 01:11 AM
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patrick,

Does this work on all inputs, including analog HD component & DVI?

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
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post #99 of 239 Old 02-12-2006, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick harkin
do have some hysteresis on flipping between per-pixel and weave mode
Is rapid flipping back and forth bad? I thought that some of the downgrading Stacy Spears and Don Munsil did in their Shootout Secrets (reviews of SDTV de-interlacing in DVD players) had to do with too many frames in video mode after a bad edit and before film mode was regained.

Anyway, film mode does a full weave with the preceding field or a full weave with the next field depending on where in the 3-2 cadence we are. Motion adaptive by definition consists of weave with the preceding field, bob, and (on the better methods) weave with the next field, (and also with the better methods for which the term motion adaptive should really be reserved) all done in different places pixel by pixel throughout the video frame. If the processor has a motion adaptive frame under construction and ready to go all the time, should a bad edit be detected the M.A. frame is output instead of the all weave frame and there should be no problems.

Remember when lines and logos burned the TV screen? I was at a concert where a musical selection made extremely heavy use of about four of the keys of the piano.
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post #100 of 239 Old 02-13-2006, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Does this work on all inputs, including analog HD component & DVI?
Yes, inverse telecine works on all HD inputs.
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Is rapid flipping back and forth bad?
It can be depending on what the visual effect of flipping quickly between the 2 modes is. You're right, you also don't want to wait too long to switch modes as well so we have to strike a happy medium in the sw.

Patrick Harkin, Lumagen Inc. engineer
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post #101 of 239 Old 02-15-2006, 08:35 AM
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Pat, does this update also complete the "full 10 bit data path" software or is there more still come in that regard?
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post #102 of 239 Old 02-15-2006, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Pat, does this update also complete the "full 10 bit data path" software or is there more still come in that regard?
Still a bit more to do to finish up the 10 bit datapath so it will be in another update.

Patrick Harkin, Lumagen Inc. engineer
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post #103 of 239 Old 02-16-2006, 05:48 PM
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Alan- there's a new update (revision 021406) which should fix up the issue you had running at 48 hz with 1080i inverse telecine. Fixes a few other issues and adds 24sf for 1080i inverse telecine also.

Patrick Harkin, Lumagen Inc. engineer
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post #104 of 239 Old 02-16-2006, 05:49 PM
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Production Release 021406 is available on the Lumagen site:

Quote:
Replaces 020506 release. Adds 108024sf support for 1080i inverse telecine. Fixes stutter issue with 1080i inverse telecine using 48hz refresh rate for output. Fixes issue switching to 720p source after 1080i in the 020506 release. Fixes video degradation issue for 1080i inverse telecine when running greater than 900p with 72 or 75 hz refresh rate.
Edit: Looks like Patrick beat me to the punch!
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post #105 of 239 Old 02-16-2006, 09:19 PM
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I'm going to have to try this now that it supports 1080p24sf. I haven't had much luck using 1080p24sf in general in the past, but I think that was due to SDI bugs associated with that output that have since been corrected.

For video based material, things like HD-TV shows, HD-Sporting events, etc that are presented in 1080i/60, will 1080p24sf look good, or will there be a lot of artifacting? Using a Qualia 004 am I better off sticking to 1080i/60 out on the Lumagen or is 1080p24sf worth a try for video?

For movies shown on HD-Net etc, is 24psf the preferred mode now for Qualia owners, or rather should it be the preferred mode theoretically?
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post #106 of 239 Old 02-17-2006, 12:56 AM
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On the Qualia you want to use 1080/24sf only for 60Hz film source material. You want to create another memory with a 1080/60 output for your video source material.

Gordon

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post #107 of 239 Old 02-17-2006, 02:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser
On the Qualia you want to use 1080/24sf only for 60Hz film source material. You want to create another memory with a 1080/60 output for your video source material.

Gordon
Gordon, I can't successfully create a memory for each. When I change it for one, it changes them all. What am I doing wrong?
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post #108 of 239 Old 02-17-2006, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uzun
For video based material, things like HD-TV shows, HD-Sporting events, etc that are presented in 1080i/60, will 1080p24sf look good, or will there be a lot of artifacting? Using a Qualia 004 am I better off sticking to 1080i/60 out on the Lumagen or is 1080p24sf worth a try for video??
You must see more artifacting on 1080p24sf constructed from 1080i compared with 1080p@60.

On any 1080i to 1080p conversion there will be 60 full frames per second (in NTSC countries). For live video converted to 1080p24sf 24 of those frames (per second) are selected to become the output video signal. Each frame either has original odd lines and bobbed/woven/blended even lines, or bobbed/woven/blended odd lines and original even lines. With all 60 frames going to the TV, the picture on the screen is going to have some new original material appearing every 1/60'th second and original material appearing in each scan line position at least every 1/30'th second for a smoother picture compared with the same material, bobbed/blended material and all lasting for approximately 1/24'th second on the screen and where some positions could have bobbed/combed/blended material for as long as 1/12'th second or 5 frames in a row. At least with film based 1080p24sf material, each of the incoming 24 frames per second has both original odd lines and original even lines for a sharper better picture compared with live video converted to 1080psf24.

Remember when lines and logos burned the TV screen? I was at a concert where a musical selection made extremely heavy use of about four of the keys of the piano.
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post #109 of 239 Old 02-17-2006, 06:01 AM
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Would 1080i60 video ever be converted to 1080p24sf?

I thought the point of 1080p24sf was to use interlaced hardware to carry essentially progressive video derived from 24 fps film-source.

Surely if you converted 60 fps video to 24sf you would be throwing frames away? Even 30sf wouldn't do the job.

nick
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post #110 of 239 Old 02-17-2006, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder
Gordon, I can't successfully create a memory for each. When I change it for one, it changes them all. What am I doing wrong?
I will try this one.

In the back of the manual there is a section called "Multiple Output Mode." I'll try to cover a couple of the items there, but you can read that section for more info, plus it has an example.

After you set up the first output resolution, switch to multiple output mode.When you switch to either one of the independent modes, all memories still point to output configuration 0. If you change an output setting immediately, it affects output configuration 0, which in turn affects all memories.

So, you need to first select a different configuration memory (try MEMB), and then use the MENU->IN->OUTSEL command to change the output configuration for that memory to (try 1) . Note, there are four OUTSEL for HD capable inputs - one for each input resolution. After that changes to the output change only output config 1, and any memories you have changed to point to it. After you have setup the new output resolution, go to the other memory configurations you would like to use that output for and change their OUTSEL to 1. Remember to SAVE after you are done.

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post #111 of 239 Old 02-17-2006, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick
Would 1080i60 video ever be converted to 1080p24sf?

I thought the point of 1080p24sf was to use interlaced hardware to carry essentially progressive video derived from 24 fps film-source.

Surely if you converted 60 fps video to 24sf you would be throwing frames away? Even 30sf wouldn't do the job.

nick
We can convert 1080i60 to 1080sF24, but as Allan point out, this is not going to give you the best results. So, if you projector accepts both 1080sF24 and 1080p60, use the later for video. As you suggest, information is lost if interlaced is converted to 24sF.

For Film, if the display does not internall convert sF24 to 60, you can you that for film, and it should look great. However, poorly generated film that has bad edits, or edited in video (e.g. credits) will cause issues with 24sF output. It is much harder to mask a bad edits and such at 24 sF than at 60p. So, if 60p looks good to you watching film, I tend to suggest just ignoring 24sF and using 60p to watch everything.

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post #112 of 239 Old 02-17-2006, 10:38 AM
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Playing with it last night the movie being aired on HDNet in 1080i/60 looked fine in 1080p24sf as well as 1080i/60 out of the Lumagen. The video programs (David Letterman, travel shows etc), had a lot of problems at 1080p24sf.

My Qualia cannot accept 1080p/60 so I guess I will just use 1080i/60 output from the Lumagen to keep things simple. I think the Qualia internal scalar does inverse telecine on 1080i/60 input anyway, and probably per pixel processing as well.
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post #113 of 239 Old 02-17-2006, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uzun
My Qualia cannot accept 1080p/60 so I guess I will just use 1080i/60 output from the Lumagen to keep things simple. I think the Qualia internal scalar does inverse telecine on 1080i/60 input anyway, and probably per pixel processing as well.
I'm sure you are aware that there is a mod for the 004 to accept 1808p/60. Josh is going to upgrade mine when he comes to performing the ISF/WmP shading calibration.

I've wondered what the 004 does in terms of internal processing. No one seems to know....

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post #114 of 239 Old 02-17-2006, 02:51 PM
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The 2/14 release seems to have problems for me. The earlier release works fine.

The 2/14 release gets stuck in Film mode regardless of what the source material is. While verifying that the unit was in Auto mod for deinterlacing, the menu system got screwed up and left menus on the screen that should have been closed.

I re-flashed and got the same results. I re-flashed with the earlier version and everything works the way it supposed. I re-downloaded and re-flash and the unit sticks in film mode again.

While viewing video material (e.g. olypmics), it looks like it is actually apply the film deinterlacing algorithm. Film based material looks fine.
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post #115 of 239 Old 02-17-2006, 04:09 PM
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rich21- could you run the Lumagen configuration utility, download your config to a PC and email the config file to support@lumagen.com ---also let us know which input you're using.

Patrick Harkin, Lumagen Inc. engineer
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post #116 of 239 Old 02-18-2006, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick harkin
Alan- there's a new update (revision 021406) which should fix up the issue you had running at 48 hz with 1080i inverse telecine. Fixes a few other issues and adds 24sf for 1080i inverse telecine also.
Its working great, thanks.
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post #117 of 239 Old 02-18-2006, 11:48 PM
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rich,

The only menu issue I saw was that if you switch from VIDPP back to AUTO, the last P stays up (AUTOP).

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Ofer LaOr
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post #118 of 239 Old 02-19-2006, 05:32 AM - Thread Starter
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When I first loaded the new release, it seems that it took a while for the processor to GENLOCK, and during this time, all kinds of crazy things were happening (Ofer - yes I saw the same issue described above, plus many others). Switching back and forth between A & B memories seemed to bring stability. Shortly, I was dialing in the 1080i to 1080p/24fs inverse telecine from HBO/SHO and HDNET. Seemed that the ability of the Lumagen to lock on the cadence of broadcast HD film was not as reliable as it is for a well mastered DVD, possibly due to compression on Dish's part. I'll be replacing Dish (so long Charlie, you rat!) with Verizon IP-TV. I hear the picture is full bandwidth and STUNNING.

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post #119 of 239 Old 02-19-2006, 06:28 AM
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I am having limited success. This may be because I use and HTPC/MyHD card to play transport streams. When I connected a STB, I did get film mode to lock in. I will have to try the same program to try to figure out what is going on.

The MyHD card is used for all recorded HD transport streams, it would be nice if I could get that to work in film mode. The Olympics look better with VIDNC. The logo sharpens up.

Then HTPC doesn't work that well connected to the Lumagen. The display is lost when the Lumagen in standby. After turning the Lumagen back on, the PC must be rebooted for the desktop to display. A distribution amp may be required to get that to function properly, but I reluctant to spend the money until the Lumagen gets a bit more solid.

It is nice to see some improvements and that bodes well for the next generation scalers.

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post #120 of 239 Old 02-19-2006, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB
I am having limited success. This may be because I use and HTPC/MyHD card to play transport streams. When I connected a STB, I did get film mode to lock in. I will have to try the same program to try to figure out what is going on.

The MyHD card is used for all recorded HD transport streams, it would be nice if I could get that to work in film mode. The Olympics look better with VIDNC. The logo sharpens up.

Then HTPC doesn't work that well connected to the Lumagen. The display is lost when the Lumagen in standby. After turning the Lumagen back on, the PC must be rebooted for the desktop to display. A distribution amp may be required to get that to function properly, but I reluctant to spend the money until the Lumagen gets a bit more solid.

It is nice to see some improvements and that bodes well for the next generation scalers.

-- Rich
There is still some work ongoing on per pixel (VIDPP) to get rid of some motion blur.

(Did select irrelevant parts of the above quote to get rid of and when I hit del they did not go away. Forum bug?)

Remember when lines and logos burned the TV screen? I was at a concert where a musical selection made extremely heavy use of about four of the keys of the piano.
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