Lumagen deinterlaces 1080i - finally - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 239 Old 03-14-2006, 11:45 PM
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Clarence it sure sounds that you have a misadjustment in your G90 settings.
I have setup 4 G90 this year with Lumagen HDP units and 1080p and they all worked immediately, the only thing that I needed to change are the clamp settings. All connected analog.
BTW the ZONE adjustment allows a lager shift of the image than the RGB shift does. I have the faint idea that this might be the problem.
Bring the SHIFT settings back to 128 and move your active image with ZONE
for RGB and then try again. You should display the test patterns of the Lumagen.
Reset the Lumagen, dial in 1080p at 59,94 and then try these adjustment.

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post #182 of 239 Old 03-15-2006, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spatz
Clarence it sure sounds that you have a misadjustment in your G90 settings.
I have setup 4 G90 this year with Lumagen HDP units and 1080p and they all worked immediately, the only thing that I needed to change are the clamp settings. All connected analog.
BTW the ZONE adjustment allows a lager shift of the image than the RGB shift does. I have the faint idea that this might be the problem.
Bring the SHIFT settings back to 128 and move your active image with ZONE
for RGB and then try again. You should display the test patterns of the Lumagen.
Reset the Lumagen, dial in 1080p at 59,94 and then try these adjustment.
Thanks Spatz.

I reset the Lumagen to factory defaults.
I changed [M0932] from AUTO to 4=BOTH.
I switched to 1080p [M027].

Then I brought up the overscan test pattern... [M MISC TPAT PATS OK >>>>]

Then I normalized SHIFT on the G90 and used ZONE to adjust.

As you suggested, I tried the CLAMP settings on the G90:
SERVICE MENU... INPUT SETTING... CLAMP.
I changed CLAMP from AUTO to HP.

That works!
Test patterns are stable with the default HDP timings... 1920x1080@59.94 with HSYN 88 and HFRN 44.

So I saved the config on the Lumagen [M SAVE SAVE OK] and with a G90 MEMORY.

That was analog to 5BNC. I'll try DVI tonight.

Thanks again.


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post #183 of 239 Old 03-15-2006, 07:52 AM
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Sorry I didn't see this thread earlier, but yes as Spatz indicated it's the clamp which has to be set to HP.
I'd be curious what you think of the HDP when deinterlacing 1080i ->1080P 60 for your G90 when compared to the other scalers you have been testing.

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post #184 of 239 Old 03-15-2006, 12:05 PM
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Allan, the new update with the improved 1080i per-pixel deinterlacing you were asking about was just posted on the Lumagen website (sw revsision 030806)--this is for all the current generation of units (VisionDVI,HDP and ProHDP). There's a few other additions and bug fixes as well.

Patrick Harkin, Lumagen Inc. engineer
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post #185 of 239 Old 03-15-2006, 07:16 PM
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Thanks, Patrick.

Remember when lines and logos burned the TV screen? I was at a concert where a musical selection made extremely heavy use of about four of the keys of the piano.
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post #186 of 239 Old 03-15-2006, 09:17 PM
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I haven't installed today's firmware update yet, but here are my first screenshots with the HDP...

Motorola 6412 HD DVR... 1080i deinterlaced to 1080p.
9' 7" wide:

http://crtforum.com/img/hdp-osd.jpg

http://crtforum.com/img/hdp-osd2.jpg

"Flying Daggers" is just an upconvert, but it still looks pretty good.


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post #187 of 239 Old 03-16-2006, 08:40 AM
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I tried to new update last night. Is it just me, Im seeing a big improvement in PQ on this one. Far more crispness. It could be placebo effect so Id like to hear from others but this download made a big difference.
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post #188 of 239 Old 03-16-2006, 02:50 PM
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Alan,

It's not a placebo effect, they made another incremental PQ improvement (just got the word a few days ago, didn't even get a chance to try it out).

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr

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post #189 of 239 Old 03-16-2006, 05:37 PM
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So you guys are pleased with the HD deinterlacing overall now ?

Art


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post #190 of 239 Old 03-16-2006, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn
So you guys are pleased with the HD deinterlacing overall now ?

Art
Yes, I think it looks really good, Art.

I'm doing an in-depth comparison between my HD Leeza and the HDP, but I don't think I can post the link here. I do have some other observations, but I'll e-mail those to you.

I took this opportunity to compare the firmware upgrade process. The Lumagen update was very simple... nicely written... good progress bar indication. Took about 5 minutes total. Last week I'd updated the HDLeeza's firmware. Not too different, but Lumagen gets a shoot-out point for more frequent updates, clearer instructions, and better feedback during the upload.

I know you can't assess anything from screenshots, but they're fun. Here's one from my tests tonight...

Tim Allen in Shaggy Dog, 1080i from 6412 HD DVR via component to HDP to G90 at 1080p, 115" wide:
http://crtforum.com/img/hdp-eye.jpg


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post #191 of 239 Old 03-16-2006, 09:59 PM
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Interesting. I didn't think the quality was notably improved. But there seems to be a huge audio delay now. I am not usually bothered, but this is pretty bad. Perhaps it is just me but I am seriously considering going back to an earlier version. I was using one from November to give you an idea of how frequently I bother to update the software.
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post #192 of 239 Old 03-16-2006, 10:01 PM
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Clarence


Post that link:)

Those pictures look dam good. I miss CRT.
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post #193 of 239 Old 03-17-2006, 02:30 AM
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Hi Clarence,
please email me those comments comparing HD-Leeza and Lumagen 1080i deinterlacing mburnste@dmc.org

if you can't post that link
thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence
Yes, I think it looks really good, Art.

I'm doing an in-depth comparison between my HD Leeza and the HDP, but I don't think I can post the link here. I do have some other observations, but I'll e-mail those to you.

I took this opportunity to compare the firmware upgrade process. The Lumagen update was very simple... nicely written... good progress bar indication. Took about 5 minutes total. Last week I'd updated the HDLeeza's firmware. Not too different, but Lumagen gets a shoot-out point for more frequent updates, clearer instructions, and better feedback during the upload.

I know you can't assess anything from screenshots, but they're fun. Here's one from my tests tonight...

Tim Allen in Shaggy Dog, 1080i from 6412 HD DVR via component to HDP to G90 at 1080p, 115" wide:
http://crtforum.com/img/hdp-eye.jpg

mark

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Art's and my buddy Steve Bruzonsky! And Oneobgyn if I ever make it to NorCal!
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post #194 of 239 Old 03-17-2006, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn
So you guys are pleased with the HD deinterlacing overall now ?
Several updates ago the Lumagen HDP blew away the scalers in many upscale plasmas. With the latest updates (I haven't done mine yet) and what has been said so far, the Lumagens have to be the "killer applications" of the year for budget HDTV.

All of the good de-interlacers have a video delay in the vicinity of 1/20'th second.

Remember when lines and logos burned the TV screen? I was at a concert where a musical selection made extremely heavy use of about four of the keys of the piano.
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post #195 of 239 Old 03-17-2006, 06:03 AM
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I installed the latest update and watched one movie last night with it. I also noticed a huge audio delay, but here are different programs or channels from time to time that have noticable audio delay, so I didn't associate it with the HDP. I'll do more testing today and see if the huge delay is always there.
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post #196 of 239 Old 03-17-2006, 06:03 AM
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Clarence,
If you are reluctant to post the link that you referred to earlier could you send me a pm?
I am in the market for a 1080p scaler as well.

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Formerly known as Maggie Guy
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post #197 of 239 Old 03-17-2006, 01:35 PM
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The new "AUTO" mode for HD deinterlacing has a delay of about 54 mS (NTSC or 1080i60) or 66 mS (PAL or 1080i50) with genlock on. Before we had the HD inverse-telecine, and also with the current software if you select either VIDPP or VIDNC mode, the delay is about 6 mS with genlock on.

Since the new AUTO mode switches between video per-pixel and inverse-telecine, both have to have the same delay. However, with the VIDPP or VIDNC, the video does not get delayed.

Some (many?) digital displays add additional delay, and these seem to be the only displays that most people can notice lip-sync delay.

With genlock off, the delay can be up to 16mS (or 20mS for 50 hertz sources) longer. Genlock on can often make the lip-sync a non-issue -- depending on how bad the delay is in the display.

One option to try is having genlock on with Auto HD deinterlacing programed as MEMA, and genlock off with VIDPP deinterlacing mode for MEMB. Since genlock takes a few seconds to lock (source selection or channel selection on some settop boxes), doing general watching with MEMB, will be nice for channel surfing and general material. Then switch to MEMA when you settle down to watch a good movie or show shot as 24p.

Jim Peterson
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post #198 of 239 Old 03-17-2006, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger
I tried to new update last night. Is it just me, Im seeing a big improvement in PQ on this one. Far more crispness. It could be placebo effect so Id like to hear from others but this download made a big difference.
This release has the new per-pixel mode, we have mentioned, that uses a single field scaled (BOB) if we detect motion in the image, and WEAVE otherwise. The old method used a blend of both field for the motion case. So the motion "blurr" several people have commented on is gone.

We have seen a significant improvement here in our own testing, so I don't think this is a placebo effect at all - okay I'm just a little biased. This is going to be most noticable on a 1080p pixel-perfect projector like Alan's Ruby. For lower resolutions, or if the display cannot support pixel perfect, the image improvements will be limited by the display/projector.

Alan: Did you compare the new "1080i to 1080p passthrough" (MENU->IN->CONFIG->ADJ->SIZE->SCALE->PASS) to the default "scaled" mode? I would be interested in your (and anybody else of course) comments of reduced-artifacts (scaled) verses more detail (pass-through).

Of course 1080i to 1080p is not really just "passthough" but that's what we called it. This is deinterlacing without going through the scaling process.

Jim Peterson
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post #199 of 239 Old 03-17-2006, 02:58 PM
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Jim, how is the 1080i deinterlacing for video sources with the new improvements? satellite 1080i HDTV any improvement on a 1080p display?

mark

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post #200 of 239 Old 03-17-2006, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp
...with the current software if you select either VIDPP or VIDNC mode, the delay is about 6 mS with genlock on.

Since the new AUTO mode switches between video per-pixel and inverse-telecine, both have to have the same delay. However, with the VIDPP or VIDNC, the video does not get delayed.

Some (many?) digital displays add additional delay, and these seem to be the only displays that most people can notice lip-sync delay.
Thanks, Jim. That explains why I didn't notice any sync delay (I'm usually VERY sensitive to it)... I set my HDP to force VIDPP last night.


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post #201 of 239 Old 03-17-2006, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp
Did you compare the new "1080i to 1080p passthrough" (MENU->IN->CONFIG->ADJ->SIZE->SCALE->PASS) to the default "scaled" mode? I would be interested in your (and anybody else of course) comments of reduced-artifacts (scaled) verses more detail (pass-through).

Of course 1080i to 1080p is not really just "passthough" but that's what we called it. This is deinterlacing without going through the scaling process.
Interesting.

SCALE->PASS toggles as expected with 1080i from my XBox360,
but with my Motorola 6412 HD DVR, I get a couple of jittery white lines across the bottom of the screen. The rest of the image is stable.
With [M0918] enabled and SCALE->PASS enabled, the V/F flag switches to "P".

I'm guessing it's related to the same reason that I get 1934x1088 instead of 1920x1080 when I extract frames from the DVR. For example:
http://img326.imageshack.us/img326/7...rzhd9iq.th.jpg http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/7756/kb11mi.th.jpg http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/246/u2063ub.th.jpg

Since I don't have a fixed-pixel projector (Sony G90 CRT), I'm guessing I should switch TIMING to a custom output resolution of 1934x1088 to match the source input (Motorola 6412 HD DVR); i.e., should I deinterlace 1934x1088i to get 1934x1088p?

Or is the Lumagen HDP deinterlacing optimized for exactly 1080i->1080p?


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post #202 of 239 Old 03-17-2006, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp
Did you compare the new "1080i to 1080p passthrough" (MENU->IN->CONFIG->ADJ->SIZE->SCALE->PASS) to the default "scaled" mode? I would be interested in your (and anybody else of course) comments of reduced-artifacts (scaled) verses more detail (pass-through).

Of course 1080i to 1080p is not really just "passthough" but that's what we called it. This is deinterlacing without going through the scaling process.
Interesting.

SCALE->PASS toggles as expected with 1080i from my XBox360,
but with my Motorola 6412 HD DVR, I get a couple of jittery white lines across the bottom of the screen. The rest of the image is stable.
With [M0918] enabled and SCALE->PASS enabled, the V/F flag switches to "P".

I'm guessing the white lines are related to the same reason that I get 1934x1088 instead of 1920x1080 when I extract frames from the DVR. For example:
http://img326.imageshack.us/img326/7...rzhd9iq.th.jpg http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/7756/kb11mi.th.jpg http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/246/u2063ub.th.jpg

Also note the gray line at the bottom of each of those frames.

Since I don't have a fixed-pixel projector (Sony G90 CRT), I'm guessing I should switch TIMING to a custom output resolution of 1934x1088 to match the source input (Motorola 6412 HD DVR); i.e., should I deinterlace 1934x1088i to get 1934x1088p?

Or is the Lumagen HDP deinterlacing optimized for exactly 1080i->1080p?


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post #203 of 239 Old 03-18-2006, 05:14 AM
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Anyone's 1080i to 1080p de-interlacing takes in 1080i and outputs 1080p. The resulting 1080p may then be scaled as a separate operation following, say, to 720p or in the case of scale->pass, output as-is.

Who reported "1934x1088" and superimposed those digits on the video image?

The Lumagen HDP's specs state 1080p as the maximum available output resolution.

Remember when lines and logos burned the TV screen? I was at a concert where a musical selection made extremely heavy use of about four of the keys of the piano.
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post #204 of 239 Old 03-18-2006, 05:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Jayne
Who reported "1934x1088" and superimposed those digits on the video image?
1934x1088 is the size of the frame that's extracted from the "1080i" transport stream from my Motorola 6412 HD DVR.

VLC (link), MPC (link), TT2 (link), VideoRedo (link), ZPP (link), all report that frame size.

The superimposed digits are added by the online photo hosting service... imageshack, but only to the thumbnail. If you click on the thumbnail, you can see the fullsize 1934x1088 frame.

Previously, I'd assumed that the 14x8 extra pixels were getting blanked by the DVR's output, but since seeing the extar artifacts when trying the Lumagen's "SCALE->PASS" mode, it seems the extra pixels are actually coming through as input.

But when I press the OK button on the remote, it reports "IN4A 1080i" input.


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post #205 of 239 Old 03-18-2006, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Jayne
Who reported "1934x1088" and superimposed those digits on the video image?
1934x1088 is the size of the frame that's extracted from the "1080i" transport stream from my Motorola 6412 HD DVR.

VLC (link), MPC (link), TT2 (link), VideoRedo (link), ZPP (link), all report that frame size.

The superimposed digits are added by the online photo hosting service... imageshack, but only to the thumbnail. If you click on the thumbnail, you can see the fullsize 1934x1088 frame.

Previously, I'd assumed that the 14x8 extra pixels were getting blanked by the DVR's output, but since seeing the extra artifacts when trying the Lumagen's "SCALE->PASS" mode, it seems the extra pixels are actually coming through as input.

But when I press the OK button on the remote, it reports "IN4A 1080i" input.


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post #206 of 239 Old 03-18-2006, 08:17 AM
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Lumagen can actually output more than 1080p I think......Sure they'll do at least 1152p@50

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post #207 of 239 Old 03-18-2006, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser
Lumagen can actually output more than 1080p I think...
Yep. Using the TIMING menu, I set the output to 1934x1088p, but I still get the white lines at the bottom when I toggle SCALE->PASS.

I'm just curious if it should be better to bypass scaling from 1934x1088 to 1920x1080.

It seems like it'd be much cleaner to deinterlace the native resolution of the source and bypass scaling completely. And since my projector can handle 1088p just as easily as 1080p, then I can configure the Lumagen for 1088p. But if the Lumagen's optimal deinterlacing is tied to 1080i->1080p, then I'll stick with 1920x1080.

Sorry if any of these questions are straying too far from the original topic. I want to use the Lumagen's deinterlacing capabilities in the best manner possible. But if it's more appropriate to ask these questions in a new thread or at the Lumagen forum, let me know.

Thanks,
Clarence

P.S. Ofer, nice review at Secrets.


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post #208 of 239 Old 03-18-2006, 10:13 AM
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Clarence. I think your queries are best answered by Jim or Pat. I'm sure one of them will be along at some point....

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post #209 of 239 Old 03-18-2006, 11:37 AM
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I'm mainly just thinking out loud and making notes to myself here. But based on the interest on this topic I've received via PM, I thought I'd share my thought process as I put my HDP through it's paces.

I want to clarify that my queries are not Lumagen "issues"... the HDP is working beautifully. I've found that what may seem like an obscure personal query usually applies to several people... I'm sure I'm not the only one trying to find the best way to deinterlace 1080i from a Motorola 6412. But let me know when my queries stray too far from the original topic of "Lumagen deinterlaces 1080i - finally" and I'll split my ramblings into a separate thread.

Here are some quick screenshots showing
MENU->IN->CONFIG->ADJ->SIZE->SCALE->NORM
http://crtforum.com/img/hdp-cat-scale.jpg

vs MENU->IN->CONFIG->ADJ->SIZE->SCALE->PASS
http://crtforum.com/img/hdp-cat-pass.jpg

Notice the scrambled lines at the bottom? I think that's caused by my DVR outputting 1934x1088i instead of 1920x1080i

I get similar results if I use the 1080p preset [M027]
or if I use TIMING VACT=1934 HACT=1088.

However, if I use a source with normal 1080i output, like my XBox360, then SCALE->NORM vs SCALE->PASS works as expected.


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Clarence is offline  
post #210 of 239 Old 03-18-2006, 02:06 PM
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OK, I've moved my ramblings to a new thread:
Clarence's 1080p scaler comparison (Lumagen VisionHDP vs. HD Leeza)


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