Lumagen deinterlaces 1080i - finally - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 239 Old 11-11-2005, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Just got the email, and plan to download the new build. Although my 004 cannot yet take 1080p (will upgrade early next year), I'd like to see how well the Lumagen does 1080i to 1080/24pfs.
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As of the 110705 sw release the deinterlacing mode command was updated to add some HD deinterlacing modes. The command is found in the menu under IN->CONFIG->CNTRL->DEINT->MODE . If you're on an HD input you can set it for SD or HD sources while if you're using an SD input you'll only have a setting available for SD deinterlacing. The 2 settings for SD are "AUTO" and "VIDEO". The "AUTO" setting automatically changes between film mode and video mode based on what type of source material is detected. The "VIDEO" mode forces the SD deinterlacer into a video deinterlacing algorithm no matter what type of source material is detected and may be preferable for some video sources.
The HD deinterlacer currently has 3 settings. "AUTO", "VIDPP" and "VIDNC". The "AUTO" mode automatically chooses the optimal algorithm based on what source material is detected. The "VIDPP" mode forces the use of a per-pixel motion adaptive video deinterlacing algorithm which eliminates/minimizes combing and provides for very good detail. The "VIDNC" setting forces a video deinterlacing algorithm which completely eliminates any combing but is does not give as detailed a picture as the VIDPP mode.

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post #2 of 239 Old 11-11-2005, 05:00 PM
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J.Mike - we haven't gotten to finish some changes to get the new per-pixel mode working with 24sf output mode so you won't see a change for that case yet. We should have that in pretty quick though---send us an email at support@lumagen.com and we can get a test build to you before a general update is posted.

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post #3 of 239 Old 11-11-2005, 05:00 PM
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It should do it fine since the only thing it is doing is converting the frame rate. 1080P/24sf is 1080i48Hz.

Very cool to see that Lumagen is doing 1080i de-interlacing though. This is great news for Jim!

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post #4 of 239 Old 11-12-2005, 09:24 AM
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I should ask, does 1080i in 720p/768p out receive the benefits of this new de-interlacing?

That is, does the stage for scaling to 720p etc. come after?

Remember when lines and logos burned the TV screen? I was at a concert where a musical selection made extremely heavy use of about four of the keys of the piano.
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post #5 of 239 Old 11-14-2005, 08:41 AM
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Allan, yes 720 and 768p both benefit from the new per-pixel deinterlacing mode, yes the scaling comes after deinterlacing from 1080i to 1080p.

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post #6 of 239 Old 11-14-2005, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick harkin
Allan, yes 720 and 768p both benefit from the new per-pixel deinterlacing mode, yes the scaling comes after deinterlacing from 1080i to 1080p.
I tip my hat to you folks at Lumagen. Until this last update, with my Dwin CRT, I found that say with 1080i input, looked best 1080i output using pass through, as using 720p output was softer. Not anymore. 720p output looks outstanding.

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post #7 of 239 Old 11-15-2005, 01:20 AM
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Patrick,

Will this also work with 1080i at 50 hz?

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post #8 of 239 Old 11-15-2005, 02:37 PM
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Ofer, yes the HD deinterlacing modes both work at 50 or 60hz. The only restrictions are currently with 108024sf and resolutions below 540p which can only use the VIDNC (stands for no comb) mode and not VIDPP (for per-pixel motion adaptive) mode. We'll be getting 108024sf added shortly.

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post #9 of 239 Old 11-16-2005, 05:18 AM
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just tested the new software release with a HDP unit connected to a G90 using a D-5 D-VHS and the all time favorite Bikini tape :p .
I can only say the girls never looked as good, resolution had a dramatic increase compared to the older software versions. Definitive a major improvement. I wonder if the REALTA units can be better ?
Even 1080i@50Hz converted to 1080p@50Hz is now jaw dropping.
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post #10 of 239 Old 11-21-2005, 01:19 PM
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Release 111205 is up now. Improves detail for resolutions less than 1080p and 1080p 24sf support for HD per pixel motion adaptive deinterlacing.

Sorry I am confused. So the inverse telecine is not in effect yet or is this it?

What res should I be using with my Barco 1209 ? I have the ProHDP and have been using 960p with all sources up to now including HDTV 1080i. I know I will have to do another convergence and set up for 1080p, no problem there. Is the 1080p 24sf good for me and if so how do I implement?

For DVD I have Denon 2910 w/SDI and HD source is Scientific Atlanta 8300HD? cable box.

Thanks
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post #11 of 239 Old 11-21-2005, 03:35 PM
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From what I am told you can keep outputting 960p if that is the sweet spot of your projector. You will still get the benefits of the 1080i motion adaptive de-interlacing and I trust the upcoming 3-2 pulldown sensing and optimizing too.

If you are able to make the scan lines skinnier and the projector has enough video amplifier bandwidth and the projector will do the 1080p scan rate, then you may be able to make 1080p the sweet spot. (Fatness of the scan lines is the most important part of this.)

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http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/video.htm

Remember when lines and logos burned the TV screen? I was at a concert where a musical selection made extremely heavy use of about four of the keys of the piano.
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post #12 of 239 Old 11-21-2005, 04:39 PM
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Thanks Allan,

I think I'm ok on video amplifier bandwidth and 1080p scanrate, not sure about the scanlines. Have to give it a try. Curious as to 1080 /24fps , is this only for Qualia 004 or will it look good on 9" CRT as well?
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post #13 of 239 Old 11-21-2005, 05:27 PM
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I've been informed that whether 1080/24p produces flicker depends on the type of display. 1080/24p on a CRT will likely produce flicker (ahh...is there where 1080/24psF can help? Flicker fusion + the way CRT's naturally deinterlace?), while on a fixed-pixel display it will likely not. I wasn't told why, but I think it's because of phosphor decay between refreshes on a CRT vs. no decay between frame updates on a fixed-pixel display.

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post #14 of 239 Old 11-22-2005, 02:19 AM
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the 1080p segmented frame is not usable for CRTs. It looks quite funny and is a special format only used for broadcast purposes. Without the Qualia 004 offering this as the only "progressive" format we would still not know about it. :)

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post #15 of 239 Old 11-22-2005, 02:26 AM
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Film or Video deinterlacing???

Which is which, is film movies and dvd's and video over the air broadcasts (Sat cable, tv) or is it the other way around

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post #16 of 239 Old 11-22-2005, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick harkin
J.Mike - we haven't gotten to finish some changes to get the new per-pixel mode working with 24sf output mode so you won't see a change for that case yet. We should have that in pretty quick though---send us an email at support@lumagen.com and we can get a test build to you before a general update is posted.

Is the 24sF per pixel working and available yet?

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post #17 of 239 Old 11-22-2005, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D_B_0673
Film or Video deinterlacing???

Which is which, is film movies and dvd's and video over the air broadcasts (Sat cable, tv) or is it the other way around
Both DVD's and TV broadcasts can be either film source or (live) video source.

U.S. films have 24 frames per second so video made from these films has up to 24 unique "poses" in the 60 (59.94) frames or fields per second. For (live) video every field (or frame) can be different. Film source de-interlacing attempts (with near perfect success in the more sophisticated methods) to identify matching odd and even fields to weave together for maximum resolution and the sharpest picture. Good video source de-interlacing identifies the parts of the picture that are the same (stationary subject matter) from one field to the next and weaves together from adjacent fields the odd and even scan line portions for just those parts while interpolating the other (moving subject) parts to generate the respective parts of the intervening scan lines. The best de-interlacers switch automatically between film mode and video mode (trying film mode first) and may switch several times a second.

Remember when lines and logos burned the TV screen? I was at a concert where a musical selection made extremely heavy use of about four of the keys of the piano.
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post #18 of 239 Old 11-22-2005, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spatz
the 1080p segmented frame is not usable for CRTs. It looks quite funny and is a special format only used for broadcast purposes. Without the Qualia 004 offering this as the only "progressive" format we would still not know about it. :)
Got it, thanks. I read that 24sF was invented by Sony so that 24p, as a "mother" format could be handled over existing interlaced transport facilities without too much hassle. So if there's no temporal offset between fields with 24sF, is it broadcasted this way (with no temporal offset)? Is that why the Qualia 004 supports it?

It was mentioned over in the Lumagen support forum that 1080/24p on a typical CRT projector will produce flicker. Is this where 2:2 and 3:3 pullup are useful?

Just a curious plasma guy...:)

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post #19 of 239 Old 11-22-2005, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1920x1080
Got it, thanks. I read that 24sF was invented by SonyJust a cusious plasma guy...:)
No it was invented by Laser Pacific Media Corporation. Check the technical emmy awards, LPMC has two for 24P. Sony, Digital Vision, Evertz, and Thomson were founding manufactures of the format.

24sF is not broadcast anywhere. 3/2 pulldown is added to the distribution master to yield 60i or 60P. The broadcaster never sees a 24sF master tape. The reason for that is "clock on the wall" timing and other internal broadcast plant issues. An automation system would have to keep track of two different frame counts. Everything in a television plant is phase locked to a commen reference. A broadcaster would be faced with a duplicate reference system for 24sF. While it could be done, the cost outweighs the advantage.

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post #20 of 239 Old 11-22-2005, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spatz
the 1080p segmented frame is not usable for CRTs. It looks quite funny and is a special format only used for broadcast purposes. Without the Qualia 004 offering this as the only "progressive" format we would still not know about it. :)
That's not true. 24sF looks just fine on a CRT display barring the flicker. And it's not used for broadcast. the purpose is to make universal masters. It can be flawlessly converted to any world television standard including SDTV. Of course you will the introduce 3/2 artifacts but they would be there anyway on a 60i transfer.

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post #21 of 239 Old 11-22-2005, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie
No it was invented by Laser Pacific Media Corporation. Check the technical emmy awards, LPMC has two for 24P. Sony, Digital Vision, Evertz, and Thomson were founding manufactures of the format.

24sF is not broadcast anywhere. 3/2 pulldown is added to the distribution master to yield 60i or 60P.
Thanks for the clarification. So what is the rationale behind 24sF output support in something like a Lumagen video processor and 24sF input support in the Qualia 004? For in-studio/broadcast facility use? Is there an advantage over 24p with 2:2 or 3:3 pullup?

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post #22 of 239 Old 11-22-2005, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1920x1080
Thanks for the clarification. So what is the rationale behind 24sF output support in something like a Lumagen video processor and 24sF input support in the Qualia 004? For in-studio/broadcast facility use? Is there an advantage over 24p with 2:2 or 3:3 pullup?
24sF is totally compatable with 60i. The uncompressed transport stream is actually padded out to match the data rate of 60i or 720P. (24P or sF is less data than 1920x1080i or 1280x720P per frame) This is why the sF format was devised. True 24P is not compatable with interlaced designed frame buffers* and other systems architectures. So dual standard production equipment could not be made cost effectivily for true 24P and 60i. As 24sF is already split up line by line, conversion to 60i is very simple - just add 3/2.

My guess is that the Qualia supports 24sF for the same reasons. It was just minor hardware changes to allow it. True 24P would mean a seperate internal scaler or one that was extensivily over designed to support two standards.

There is a business downside to 24P/sF as well. The 24sF format made 24P video cameras practical. That in turn threatens the profitable telecine business for TV shows. Editing has gone from complex hardware solutions to comodity PC's. You can now edit a show on Final Cut Pro in full HD. Now it's not as fast as the big gun linear edit suit but it's fast enough to justify the cost savings. So the remaining big profit center is telecine which at an average $1.5 million build out cost is not going to be found on a desktop anytime soon. But 24P video cameras means we don't need telecine or any film processing. Fortunatly the 24P video cameras are not quite up to par yet against film. But that will change.

*For realtime hardware based equipment. Software based tools don't care what the image format is but then can't do much in real time either.

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post #23 of 239 Old 11-22-2005, 11:51 AM
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I've never had much luck using 1080/24sf with my Qualia 004 and my Lumagen HDP Pro. It works fine, but even with film sourced material I get jerky pans, jerky motion, and what appear to be missing frames.

It's just never smooth no matter what the source material is, whether 480 DVD via SDI or 1080i material from HDNet Movies or a D-Theater tape.
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post #24 of 239 Old 11-22-2005, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uzun
I've never had much luck using 1080/24sf with my Qualia 004 and my Lumagen HDP Pro. It works fine, but even with film sourced material I get jerky pans, jerky motion, and what appear to be missing frames.

It's just never smooth no matter what the source material is, whether 480 DVD via SDI or 1080i material from HDNet Movies or a D-Theater tape.
This sounds like classic bad 3/2 detection which in all fairness is difficult to do. In fact it's not done in the professional arena. We add/remove 3/2 based on timecode, that is the frame count. Now of course that assumes the timecode is correct but it usally is. It a requirement for anyone touching a master not to break it. Unfortunatly the timecode is never passed on to broadcast or home video media.

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post #25 of 239 Old 11-22-2005, 05:09 PM
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uzun- we have just found an issue in the current sw with SDI in and 1080-24sf output that seems to cause the Lumagen to not get into film mode and makes 24sf output jerky. Other inputs like component@480i, svideo, or DVI@480i with 24sf out look to work fine in the current sw. Note that only with DVD film sources can we get a good 3:2 lock to give a nice looking 24sf result. We went back a few releases and found SDI in ->24sf out working in the 090805 sw so we'll figure out what we broke and have a fix in shortly.

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post #26 of 239 Old 11-23-2005, 02:25 PM
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Patrick, that explains it to me too. I also have the SDI/1080-24sf setting. I had an old software version (pre September) and when I updated to the latest November release, my experience worsened somehow, including many jerkiness effects, so I swithed to 1080i for outut. I'll be glad to take the fix.
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post #27 of 239 Old 11-25-2005, 10:29 AM
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Just tried rev 111205 . This is the best I have seen my 1209 look with HD. When I get more time I will try 1080p, but for now 960p looks great. Tonight Resident Evil : Apocalypse comes on HBO HD. Should look awesome, can't wait to see.
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post #28 of 239 Old 11-25-2005, 01:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stopdog
Just tried rev 111205 . This is the best I have seen my 1209 look with HD. When I get more time I will try 1080p, but for now 960p looks great. Tonight Resident Evil : Apocalypse comes on HBO HD. Should look awesome, can't wait to see.
Agreed! Watched Spielberg's War of the Worlds on my Qualia 004 (SDI in to Lumagen::1080p/24fs out) and the action was smooth as could be.

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post #29 of 239 Old 11-26-2005, 08:57 AM
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I didn't find War of the Worlds to be smooth at all, and I also used SDI in and 1080p/24fs out for a while. Why for SDI sources would you ever want to use 1080p/24sf? It's far less problematic to use 720p/60, it works well for most video sources and quite well for film sources when you workaround the current film mode bug, that's due to be fixed soon.

What I really want to use 1080p/24sf for is 1080i film based source material. For 480i material I don't see 720p as a problem at all, as it works well as well for film as 1080p/24df does. Well, actually a lot better since it handles errors in the source material far more smoothly than 1080p/24sf does. Any little hiccup in the mastering/transfer process of the DVD really shows up in 1080p/24 output in my experience, something that 720p handles much more smoothly. And the well mastered portions look equally good at 720p as they do at 1080p/24. I just don't see the need for 1080p/24 for traditional DVD sources.
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post #30 of 239 Old 11-28-2005, 02:16 PM
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Did the 1080p set up and convergence for my Barco 1209 over the weekend. Another step up in picture quality for sure. A little more "depth" and less background noise with more saturated colors than 960p using Hidef cable 1080i source. Detail was outstanding. With test pattern I can still get nice and skiny lines and dots, sweet. Played with the Genlock feature a little, not real sure what it does but I ended up leaving it on.

I did take a couple screen shot photos but couldn't upload because file size too big ? What res are you guys taking dig photos so you can post here?
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