DVDO VP30 and Panny Plasmas..Anyone getting NR? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 194 Old 02-06-2006, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by notanewbie
cpcat: While I agree with you about NR and 1:1, the boys at DVDo and a host of other forum members on another thread do not. According to them 1:1 can be obtained at any resolution, even by sending a 1366 NR plasma 1360 and stretching and overscanning the image to fit.
Please don't start up with this **** again and get this thread closed down, too. What you've posted above is a complete misrepresentation of what was said in the other thread. If you want to start a debate, I'll be happy to oblige, as I don't like to let this sort of misinformation stand unchallenged. However, I suspect the other forum members (not to mention the moderator) are a bit tired of it.

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post #92 of 194 Old 02-06-2006, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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About 1 week has passed and I just got an email from DVDO.

In it, Jim Strommann stated:

"I have attached a page from the blade (HDMI) you are using to this email which lists the compatible resolutions for that blade (you’ll note that 1366x768 is absent – thus not supported). By looking up the two manuals for the DVI and HDMI input blades (TY-42TM6D and TY-FB8HM respectively), I have found that both the current HDMI blade you have installed and the correct model do not list 1366x768 as a supported resolution. However, the TY-42M6D (DVI) DOES list 1366x768/60Hz as a valid resolution. "

So, in a nutshell, neither HDMI blade made by Panasonic for their plasmas will support 1366x768. The original 7 blade OR the newer 8 blade. If anyone is doing it, then please do post it because according to Panasonic and DVDO it cannot be done. If you say you can, we are calling you liars:)

Since the DVI blade does support 1366x768, it only makes sense that you (we) use that Panasonic blade to enter natively and post those settings.

I still don't know how difficult it will be to get a VP30 to send 1;1 and/or NR to the panny even with a DVI blade, but I do know that after 4 days of trying with HDMI that it wasnt me, it just isn't possible.

Wish the email came 4 days ago:)
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post #93 of 194 Old 02-06-2006, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Dale: Rather than resurrecting 1:1 mapping again on this thread, why dont you email me privately or post your email and I will write you privately with direct quotes from the other thread that Ofer locked down. Either, 1:1 can be had ONLY at NR or it cannot. Pick your poison and email me. Enough already.
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post #94 of 194 Old 02-06-2006, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notanewbie
About 1 week has passed and I just got an email from DVDO.

In it, Jim Strommann stated:
His name is Tim Strommen, not Jim Strommann.

Quote:
"I have attached a page from the blade (HDMI) you are using to this email which lists the compatible resolutions for that blade (you’ll note that 1366x768 is absent – thus not supported). By looking up the two manuals for the DVI and HDMI input blades (TY-42TM6D and TY-FB8HM respectively), I have found that both the current HDMI blade you have installed and the correct model do not list 1366x768 as a supported resolution. However, the TY-42M6D (DVI) DOES list 1366x768/60Hz as a valid resolution. "
You might consider posting the entire response that Tim sent you. There's a lot of good information there and I'm sure other of the forum members may be interested.

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post #95 of 194 Old 02-06-2006, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notanewbie
cpcat: While I agree with you about NR and 1:1, the boys at DVDo and a host of other forum members on another thread do not. According to them 1:1 can be obtained at any resolution, even by sending a 1366 NR plasma 1360 and stretching and overscanning the image to fit.

I personally have no interest in sending my plasma anything but 1366. However, I don't hink I can agree with your assertion that the internal scaler can still be in use when accepting its native rate.

Please explain that one to me.





If both v-line and h-line patterns are perfect, it's 1:1. If they aren't it's not. There's no way around this assuming the patterns are being generated properly.
If the scaler is outputting NR at the time and the patterns are off, most likely the v-size, h-size controls are mismatched somehow and either the scaler isn't providing true native or the display is still scaling the image slightly or both. Unfortunately, v-size and h-size controls don't always adjust in perfect one-pixel increments so it may not be just a matter of dialing it in. This is when it can be necessary to experiment with custom timings. If the actual timing that would produce 1:1 under these conditions isn't stable or won't sync with the display, it may not be possible.
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post #96 of 194 Old 02-06-2006, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notanewbie
Dale: Rather than resurrecting 1:1 mapping again on this thread, why dont you email me privately or post your email and I will write you privately with direct quotes from the other thread that Ofer locked down. Either, 1:1 can be had ONLY at NR or it cannot. Pick your poison and email me. Enough already.
Ah, I see you're starting again. You make accusations in public but only want to further discuss it in private. Sorry, this time I won't bite. I am a bit curious about which email of mine you're talking about, though. I've never sent you one.

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post #97 of 194 Old 02-06-2006, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you for taking the time to send us your question. Yes, the VP30 can output 1366x768 via the HDMI/DVI output and the RGBHV output. The iScan VP30 will attempt to output a 1366x768 signal to the component video output if that is how you configure it – however, this is not the correct signal type to output to a standard interface (Component video, depending on whether it is Y-Cb-Cr or Y-Pb-Pr, can only accept 480i/p, 576i/p, 720p or 1080i/p – exceptions do exist, but this is the standard). Our upgrade program is something that we prize and so yes – if there is a new product out we will create a trade-in value for the previous models that reflects the current market (VP30 included). The trade-in program does not end.

Attached, I have included a page from the user’s manual of your plasma display (TH-65PHD8UK – page 6). On this page Panasonic has listed the compatible input blades that are to be used with your display. Note that they state that using any blades other that those listed could result in the symptoms you are describing – and could potentially damage your display (thus voiding the display’s warranty). I have attached a page from the blade you are using to this email which lists the compatible resolutions for that blade (you’ll note that 1366x768 is absent – thus not supported). By looking up the two manuals for the DVI and HDMI input blades (TY-42TM6D and TY-FB8HM respectively), I have found that both the current HDMI blade you have installed and the correct model do not list 1366x768 as a supported resolution. However, the TY-42M6D DOES list 1366x768/60Hz as a valid resolution. By contacting Panasonic Broadcast and Television Systems Technical Support and speaking with Mr. X and Mr. Z. Mr Z. has explained to me that the HDMI blades (TY-FB7HM and TY-FB8HM) were not designed to accept and pass to the display resolutions outside of the NTSC, PAL, ATSC, or VGA standard. In order to do this he confirmed that you would want to use the TY-42TM6D blade to achieve 1366x768/60Hz (DVI-RGB color space w/HDCP).

Also while speaking with Mr X., I asked if he had native the timings for the 65†display. He informed me that he does not have that information, and that the Panasonic factory (in Japan) will not supply him with those numbers. He elaborated by saying that he did have timings for the 50†version of your display with the TY-42TM6D DVI-RGB blade – and that he retrieved them from the AVS Forums. After he sent me a copy via email, I discovered that he in fact has the timings that I worked on with a customer for 1 ½ hours to come up obtain a near 1:1 picture – these were later posted to the forums. Thus I am including a copy of my M.S. Word document that has all of the current known display timings that we have (of which the 50†timing on page 3, should work for your display assuming you utilize the correct input blade – the TY-42TM6D).

I would first ask that you find a local A/V installer that has experience with installing Panasonic Commercial Plasma Displays and DVDO iScan scaler products, purchase the correct DVI input blade (again TY-42TM6D), and have the installer complete the setup of the display and fine tuning of the iScan. Due to our current support load I’ll ask that you refrain from asking further Panasonic display related questions of ABT. Please direct Panasonic support questions to Panasonic Broadcast and Television Systems Technical Support for further assistance.

I left out the links to other vendors to purchase the DVI card for fear that it violates forum rules.

I also left out individuals direct phone numbers and emails out of respect to them and without their permission I don't feel it fair to post them on a public forum.

Other than that, there is the entire email.
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post #98 of 194 Old 02-06-2006, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Adams
Ah, I see you're starting again. You make accusations in public but only want to further discuss it in private. Sorry, this time I won't bite. I am a bit curious about which email of mine you're talking about, though. I've never sent you one.

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I think that he meant post your email address and he'd write you there etc etc. Either way, you are right, we're tired of this.
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post #99 of 194 Old 02-06-2006, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Dale: I figured out the problem..you just dont know how to read. thats it in a nutshell.

WHERE DID I SAY YOU EVER SENT ME AN EMAIL? I ASKED YOU TO EMAIL ME OFF OF THE FORUMS TO CONTINUE THIS STUPIDITY.

NOT TRYING TO GET YOU TO BITE ON ANYTHING, I JUST DONT WANT THIS THREAD SHUT DOWN AGAIN.

READ IT AGAIN
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post #100 of 194 Old 02-06-2006, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notanewbie
Other than that, there is the entire email.
Well, almost. Here's the one other piece that I think may be useful to some forum members:

Quote:
F.Y.I. Panasonic Broadcast and Television Systems Technical Support: pbtscservice@us.panasonic.com, or on the web @ www.panasonic.com/broadcast, or by phone at 1-800-524-1448 (option 1)
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post #101 of 194 Old 02-06-2006, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stlblufan
I think that he meant post your email address and he'd write you there etc etc.
Thanks for the clarification - the complete wording makes sense. But, no, I'm not going to post my email address in a public forum (nor respond further).

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post #102 of 194 Old 02-06-2006, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Dale you dont want to post your address but, you didnt hesitate for a moment in reposting panasonics broadcast email address that is not public, nor is their number.

once again, your reading skills are lacking. I clearly indicated that I was not reposting email addresses or phone numbers in the repost.

Finally, you could PM me your email if you felt your debate skills were up to snuff.
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post #103 of 194 Old 02-06-2006, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notanewbie
Dale you dont want to post your address but, you didnt hesitate for a moment in reposting panasonics broadcast email address that is not public, nor is their number.
Sorry - I know I said no further replies, but this one should be addressed. I posted the information because the source of that information didn't mind that I do so.

Quote:
I clearly indicated that I was not reposting email addresses or phone numbers in the repost.
Which is why I did it - it was useful information and there was no objection to it being posted.

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post #104 of 194 Old 02-06-2006, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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cpcat: The issue is that while you are correct in that 1:1 lines up to create perfect pixel matching, what if for example, the display had a native rate of 1366 and you were only able to send it 480 with perfect 1:1 pixel mapping? What good is the 1:1 perfection when the internal scaler has to upconvert that signal to 1366? Same holds true for any resolution other than the displays native resolution. If it is even 1 pixel short of its native resolution, the 1:1 mapping still has to be handled to some degree by the internal scaler.

This is the crux of the issue. Yes, 1:1 is nice. yes, NR is nice. But, one without the other is less than optimal and ideal and the PQ suffers as a result.
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post #105 of 194 Old 02-06-2006, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
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post #106 of 194 Old 02-06-2006, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notanewbie
Hey Dale, do me a favor...get a grip on reality and speak to the people within your company. You saw fit to correct me on how to spell Tim Strommen but, you didnt even have the common sense to speak to him before posting those numbers.
Not quite true. It was okay to post the general contact information. Tim didn't realize you'd posted the actual names.

And I don't anybody in the world that spells Tim with a "J".

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post #107 of 194 Old 02-06-2006, 05:10 PM
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I apologize to the forum members for my somewhat cantankerous postings. In the interest of getting this thread back on track I've deleted all my postings (but 1).

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post #108 of 194 Old 02-06-2006, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notanewbie
cpcat: The issue is that while you are correct in that 1:1 lines up to create perfect pixel matching, what if for example, the display had a native rate of 1366 and you were only able to send it 480 with perfect 1:1 pixel mapping? What good is the 1:1 perfection when the internal scaler has to upconvert that signal to 1366? .
You can't get 1:1 under these conditions. I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at.

Maybe this will help:

The V-line patterns are generated by outputting alternating black/white lines the number of which will correspond to the horizontal resolution. If the scaler is set to output 1366 horizontal, it will generate 1366 vertical lines alternating black/white across the screen. If set to 640 it will generate 640 lines.

The H-line patterns will similarly be generated based on the selected vertical resolution. If 768, there will then be 768 horizontal lines alternating black/white.
If 480, there will be 480 lines.

If you view one of the patterns by getting around a foot or so from the screen and you see one-pixel line white alternating with one-pixel line black evenly spaced and filling the screen you are 1:1 mapped regardless of the selected resolution. (In theory, you could map 1:2 and still get a regularly and evenly spaced line pattern but in practice that's not likely to happen and in that case the lines would be two pixels wide so you should be able to recognize that if it were to occur.)

This will only be the case with 480p on a 480p native display and with 768p on a 768p native display and so on.

If you feed a 768p display 480p and display the patterns, you'll see 2 white lines, one black line, 3 white lines, 2 black or something of that nature depending on the math the display's scaler is doing to generate the image. You may even see moire patterning which are wider lines which are visible from further away.

So, with these test patterns, there's no faking it. The "big eye don't lie" so to speak as it's right there in front of you.
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post #109 of 194 Old 02-06-2006, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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cpcat: One of us is definitely not getting this. I will assume it is me, so bear with me.

I understand that if a scaler is outputting 1366 horizontal, then it is genrating 1366 lines to the display. Ditto for the vertical.

I also understand how the test patterns work. If you stand a foot or so away, you should see the one pixel lines and so on.

The question I am posing is this:

If you have a 1366 plasma display, that is a plasma with a native rate of 1366 x768, and you send it 1360 lines of resolution or even 1280 lines of resolution, how does the plasma display the number without doing "something" to get it to its native display?

If it is sent a 480 signal from a cable box, the internal scaler upconverts the material to 1366, unless it is just passing it through at 480 am I correct?

You state: "This will only be the case with 480p on a 480p native display and with 768p on a 768p native display and so on. "

So my question is: since this is only the case with 480 on 480, 720 on 720 and so on..how can you get 1:1 when you are sending the panel anything but it's native rate? I understand you could send it 1:1 and make it ths size of a pack of cigarettes, but that wouldn't fill the screen, it would only map the size you send it.

I think I am comparing 1:1 with something like convergence on a DLP PJ or rear projection. I understand the whole convergence thing but, one to one mapping doesnt mean a thing if the NR is not accurate.

Am I making any sense at all? Do you understand what I am stating?
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post #110 of 194 Old 02-07-2006, 12:03 AM
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(nota)newbie, let me try to explain it again:

(1) NR without 1:1 pixel mapping:

I can send NR (1366x768 at 50Hz) from my iScan HD+ over analog connection to my 50PHD8 without being able to achieve 1:1 pixel mapping. Why is that? Well, the display doesn't seem to interpret the signal correctly. First, the image was not wide enough, it didn't cover the whole screen. So I enlarged it with the plasma's image size controls. When I changed the size so that it seemed to fit, it was still half a pixel away or something like that. I was not able to make the display "snap in". And the test patterns still showed some moire. I think if the display allowed me to do half or quarter steps in size, maybe I would have been able to achieve 1:1 pixel mapping (perfect convergence), but the way it was it just didn't work out.

So I played with the custom timings. I increased one of the timing parameters until the display suddenly resynchronized (the image went black for half a second then came back). This time I was able to achieve perfect convergence. The test patterns look spot on now with no moire.

(2) 1:1 pixel mapping without NR:

If you send the Fujitsu plasma 1360x768 with good timings and adjust the display correctly, then you'll get perfect convergence. The left most 3 pixel colums are all black all the time this way, and the right most 3 pixel colums, too. But the "middle" 1360 pixel colums are all perfect 1:1 pixel mapped. No moire in the test patterns, perfect sharpness. The display does *NOT* stretch the image to 1366x768. The only disadvantage you have is that you're losing 6 pixel colums which never show any image content but are black all the time. Basically you're losing 0.4% image width. But image quality is perfect. And this without NR.

Got it?
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post #111 of 194 Old 02-07-2006, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
(nota)newbie, let me try to explain it again:

(1) NR without 1:1 pixel mapping:

I can send NR (1366x768 at 50Hz) from my iScan HD+ over analog connection to my 50PHD8 without being able to achieve 1:1 pixel mapping. Why is that? Well, the display doesn't seem to interpret the signal correctly. First, the image was not wide enough, it didn't cover the whole screen. So I enlarged it with the plasma's image size controls. When I changed the size so that it seemed to fit, it was still half a pixel away or something like that. I was not able to make the display "snap in". And the test patterns still showed some moire. I think if the display allowed me to do half or quarter steps in size, maybe I would have been able to achieve 1:1 pixel mapping (perfect convergence), but the way it was it just didn't work out.

So I played with the custom timings. I increased one of the timing parameters until the display suddenly resynchronized (the image went black for half a second then came back). This time I was able to achieve perfect convergence. The test patterns look spot on now with no moire.

(2) 1:1 pixel mapping without NR:

If you send the Fujitsu plasma 1360x768 with good timings and adjust the display correctly, then you'll get perfect convergence. The left most 3 pixel colums are all black all the time this way, and the right most 3 pixel colums, too. But the "middle" 1360 pixel colums are all perfect 1:1 pixel mapped. No moire in the test patterns, perfect sharpness. The display does *NOT* stretch the image to 1366x768. The only disadvantage you have is that you're losing 6 pixel colums which never show any image content but are black all the time. Basically you're losing 0.4% image width. But image quality is perfect. And this without NR.

Got it?
Madshi,
I get what you are saying but my head is spinning from this thread and others like it. Promise me that you will buy a Crystalio 2, get pixel perfect settings with your 50PHD8, download to the USB stick, and email them to me so I can load them into my C2. Then I can stop thinking about all this crap! :D

Actually I'm seriously starting to think about something other than a Panny PDP for my purchase in the next few months given all these problems with their poor implementation of the digital blades and their apparent unwillingness to provide timings. I wonder if it would be worth it to go with another PDP. I just don't know which one it would be.
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post #112 of 194 Old 02-07-2006, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D
Madshi,
I get what you are saying but my head is spinning from this thread and others like it. Promise me that you will buy a Crystalio 2, get pixel perfect settings with your 50PHD8, download to the USB stick, and email them to me so I can load them into my C2. Then I can stop thinking about all this crap! :D

Actually I'm seriously starting to think about something other than a Panny PDP for my purchase in the next few months given all these problems with their poor implementation of the digital blades and their apparent unwillingness to provide timings. I wonder if it would be worth it to go with another PDP. I just don't know which one it would be.
Well, you could go with the Pioneer FHD1, which should be gorgious. We know it will easily support all input formats we ever dreamed of. It's not totally clear whether you'll be able to achieve 1:1 pixel mapping with it yet, but I'd bet on that you can. The other alternative might be a Panasonic 1080p model, but only if it has 1080p50/60 input capability. Maybe (hopefully) the 65PHD9 will do that.

But I think with PHD8 and the DVI blade it should be possible to achieve NR + 1:1 pixel mapping with 60Hz, because the DVI blade officially supports 1366x768 with 60Hz. The big problem is 50Hz for me, cause I live in PAL land.
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post #113 of 194 Old 02-07-2006, 01:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
Well, you could go with the Pioneer FHD1, which should be gorgious. We know it will easily support all input formats we ever dreamed of. It's not totally clear whether you'll be able to achieve 1:1 pixel mapping with it yet, but I'd bet on that you can. The other alternative might be a Panasonic 1080p model, but only if it has 1080p50/60 input capability. Maybe (hopefully) the 65PHD9 will do that.

But I think with PHD8 and the DVI blade it should be possible to achieve NR + 1:1 pixel mapping with 60Hz, because the DVI blade officially supports 1366x768 with 60Hz. The big problem is 50Hz for me, cause I live in PAL land.
Yeah we discussed the FHD1 and I know about the 1080ps on the horizon. The problem is that I need to buy something in the next few months as I'm selling my 6th gen ED Panny (I can sell it here in Southern Africa for about as much as I can buy a new 50" HD in the US!), moving back to the states, and will need something to tide me over until the 65" 1080p comes to market. I doubt that the FHD1 or any of the commercial 1080ps will be available until late in the year, if even then.

Even though I won't have the 50hz problem, I don't think the DVI blade is very good. I might just stick with RGBVH but then I'll have to go out of the HD STB via component. The whole thing is so messed up--and it seems it's mostly because of Panny's poor engineering of their digital blades. Very frustrating.
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post #114 of 194 Old 02-07-2006, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D
Yeah we discussed the FHD1 and I know about the 1080ps on the horizon. The problem is that I need to buy something in the next few months
The FHD1 is slated for June 2006 release, I think.

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Originally Posted by Jack D
Even though I won't have the 50hz problem, I don't think the DVI blade is very good.
Why?
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post #115 of 194 Old 02-07-2006, 02:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
The FHD1 is slated for June 2006 release, I think.


Why?
Fuzziness in lower IRE.
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post #116 of 194 Old 02-07-2006, 05:11 AM
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Am I making any sense at all? Do you understand what I am stating?
Yes, it sounds like we are all on the same page now. :)
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post #117 of 194 Old 02-07-2006, 06:07 AM
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Here are the setting I use for native rate on my 657UY with the Lumagen HDP scaler and the HDMI connector:

VTOT: 806
VACT: 768
VSYN: 6
VFRN: 3
VRATE: 59.94

HTOT: 1800
HACT: 1366
HSYN: 85
HFRN: 40

Good Luck,

Rich

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post #118 of 194 Old 02-07-2006, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Madshi: If, in the example you gave with the Fujitsu, you send it 1360 and leave 6 rows of pixels dark ( 3 on the left and 3 on the right) then arent you going to burn in the edges as a result? Are you suggesting that the solution to 1:1 mapping on the fujitsu results in a permanent left and right burn in, if and when that scaler is removed?

Doesn't sound like a winning solution to me. And to get 1:1 or NR via RGBHV Analog brings in all sorts of other issues, like HDMI compatibility and cross conversion from digital to analog for no "good" reason.

Now that RichB has indicated his 7U is getting NR with his HDMI blade, it has to be either the 8U panel or the VP-30..again.
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post #119 of 194 Old 02-07-2006, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notanewbie
Madshi: If, in the example you gave with the Fujitsu, you send it 1360 and leave 6 rows of pixels dark ( 3 on the left and 3 on the right) then arent you going to burn in the edges as a result?
I don't think this is "burn in", it's rather "unequal phosphor consumption". Basically if you remove the scaler after several thousand hours of watching, the 6 pixel columns might be slighly brighter than the rest of the display.

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Originally Posted by notanewbie
Doesn't sound like a winning solution to me.
Well, if you have a Fujitsu plasma, then you have no other choice than this, if you want to have perfect convergence with your external VP. It may not sound like a winning solution to you. But that's what all the people with a Fujitsu plasma and an external VP are doing. Again it should be noted that this is not the fault of the VP manufacturers. It's Fujitsu's fault. If you don't like this solution, then don't buy a Fujitsu plasma. All those people who bought a Fujitsu seem to have no big problems with this workaround, though.
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post #120 of 194 Old 02-07-2006, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thats the exact reason why I bought a Panny and not a Fuji. The internal Fuji scaler far exceeds any other plasma manufacturers internal scaler, which is one of the reasons why Fujis cost more. To pay the premium only to desire an outboard scaler is a true waste as they use Panny glass.

The panny plasmas with an external scaler will give you the best available picture from a plasma display.

All those guys with Fujis sending them 1360 are in for a rude awakening in a years time when they want to upgrade or sell their plasmas with a bright or dim border on the edge of the screen.
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