DVDO VP30 and Panny Plasmas..Anyone getting NR? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 194 Old 01-30-2006, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Just wondering if it is possible to get the Panny plasmas (8UK's) to accept native rate of 1366x768 from a VP30. I don't care if it goes via HDMI or by Component, I just want to know if the Pannys accept NR via external scalers.

If so, then there must be someone out there who has the correct timing settings for these plasmas in conjuction with an external scaler like the VP30.

Does anyone have these answers or will I be the guinea pig?

If you have answers please post, I have searched high and low to no avail.
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post #2 of 194 Old 01-30-2006, 01:38 PM
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I'm having an iScan HD+ here with a 50PHD7 with 1:1 pixel mapping at 50Hz over HD15 analog connection. As far as I know these are the facts about both PHD7 and PHD8:

- 1:1 pixel mapping with 60Hz is possible via both analog and HDMI
- 1:1 pixel mapping with 48Hz and 50Hz is possible, but only over analog connection

Tweaking the iScan HD+ to get 1:1 pixel mapping was a bit tricky for me. First I wasn't able to achieve it. Then I've played with the custom timing settings. I had to change one of these settings to a much higher value. Then the image suddenly went black and resynchronized. After that I could decrease the value a bit again. So basically just having the correct timing values doesn't necessarily help. There are some values where you have to cross a certain treshold to force the display to resynchronize.

I've not tried the VP30, but I guess it will behave more or less identical to the HD+.
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post #3 of 194 Old 01-30-2006, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for the reply!

Do the different Hz make a discernable difference in Picture quality?

Do you see any studdering or stairstepping when changing Hz?

Ideally, what SHOULD the Hz setting be on an NTSC plasma?

In the end, could you please tell me what the timing settings are for YOUR specific display? At least i will have some sort of a baseline when teweaking mine. Also, why did you settle for an analog or digital connection? Any difference in PQ that you were able to see between the two?

Finally, do you feel the scaling is significantly imporved going through the DVDO rather than using the pannys internal scaler?

Thanks SO much for answering these questions, I appreciate it.
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post #4 of 194 Old 01-30-2006, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notanewbie
Do the different Hz make a discernable difference in Picture quality?
Not in themselves. It depends on the source format, see below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by notanewbie
Do you see any studdering or stairstepping when changing Hz?
No stairstepping. But you do get studdering if you choose the "wrong" refresh rate. Basically the refresh rate should fit to your source material. NTSC is usually 60Hz (or rather 59.98Hz or something like that). However, movies were originally shot in 24fps. If you have a good scaler, it can reproduce the original 24fps from the 60Hz NTSC signal. In that case you'll get the best result by connecting your scaler with 48Hz to the Panasonic. However, that won't look good at all for television stuff which is really 60fps and not 24fps. In PAL land we have everything at 50Hz. Movies are speeded up to 25fps, so 50Hz still fits for us. So we have it a bit easier here. Television and movies can be handled with just one refresh rate. It should be noted, though, that by far most people (probably something like 99%) in NTSC land watch 24fps movies in 60Hz and are used to the slight motion judder and have no problems with it at all.

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Originally Posted by notanewbie
Ideally, what SHOULD the Hz setting be on an NTSC plasma?
60Hz should be fine. If you can set up your devices to do either 60Hz or 48Hz, depending on the source format, then that's even better. But that's probably not absolutely necessary, except if you're a total image quality freak... :)

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Originally Posted by notanewbie
In the end, could you please tell me what the timing settings are for YOUR specific display? At least i will have some sort of a baseline when teweaking mine.
I only have 50Hz timings here, so that won't help you much, I guess. The default timings are not far off. You just need to play with the timings to make the screen resync once, then you probably have it right. It's not too difficult once you know how: Just take each timing parameter, write down the old setting. Then greatly change the parameter. If you see the Panasonic resync, you probably got it right. If changing this one parameter doesn't make the Pany resync, just change it back to the old value and try the next timing parameter. I don't remember which parameter I had to change. I think it was a "V" parameter, not a "H" parameter.

But first I'd suggest that you try to achieve 1:1 pixel mapping with the default parameters. It might already work for you. Who knows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by notanewbie
Also, why did you settle for an analog or digital connection?
Because 50Hz 1:1 pixel mapping is only possible via analog connection. And by far most of my sources are 50Hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by notanewbie
Any difference in PQ that you were able to see between the two?
I've not even tried digital (I have no digital board), because I knew from these forums (and the UK forums) that digital is no go for 50Hz 1:1 pixel mapping. I've been told that with a good scaler and a good cable there's not much of a difference between analog and digital connection. Digital might be ever so slightly sharper, while some people claim you have some more noise in shadow detail when using digital. But others don't agree. Well...

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Originally Posted by notanewbie
Finally, do you feel the scaling is significantly imporved going through the DVDO rather than using the pannys internal scaler?
To be honest I've not really done much of a comparison, so I can't really tell. I've simply set it up with 1:1 pixel mapping and was happy with it. What I noticed is that when I was going from analog out to SDI out I got noticably better results. Also I *think* when going from the iScan Pro (which can't scale at all) to the iScan HD+ with 1:1 pixel mapping, the picture quality was noticably better. But I didn't switch back and forth, so it was just a vague impression. I hadn't had the iScan Pro running for long, so don't take me too serious here.
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post #5 of 194 Old 01-31-2006, 01:22 AM
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I have achieved 1:1 with my 50" 8UK using the VP30 using the DVI blade at 60 HZ. I was not successful using the HDMI blade, however. I used the timings in the NR thread I believe. They were almost identical to the timings posted for the 7 series, with the exception of one of the horizontal timings, but you will be able to figure it out.

For me, and perhaps I was doing something wrong, the improvement was not significant enough for me to keep the unit, even with the SDI modded player. Again, I may have had the rest of the set-up wrong, but I did have the timings correct to achieve 1:1 mapping.
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post #6 of 194 Old 01-31-2006, 01:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notanewbie
Finally, do you feel the scaling is significantly imporved going through the DVDO rather than using the pannys internal scaler?
I don't have a DVDO, rather a Crystalio 1, but I think that any good external video processor, such as a DVDO, will make a significant difference in the PQ compared to the Panny internal processing. The trick is that you have to get it 1:1 mapped to bypass the Panny processing. Also you do not want to do any scaling or deinterlacing on the signal that you send to the VP. That means you either have to have an SDI modded DVD player or one of the few DVD players that sends out a 480i signal via HDMI (and I think there is still some controversy about whether these DVD players actually do any processing of the 480i signal).
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post #7 of 194 Old 01-31-2006, 04:24 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks Guys!

mlouie: You said that you "used the timings in the NR thread" but, I have no idea WHICH NR thread the timings were posted. Any way you could liknk me to that thread or to the actual post of the timing settings?

Thanks again.
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post #8 of 194 Old 01-31-2006, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notanewbie
Any way you could liknk me to that thread
It is here.
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post #9 of 194 Old 01-31-2006, 05:39 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks so much stlblufan.

I will "give back" to that thread once I get my 65-8uk set up with the vp-30 and have the proper timing settings.
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post #10 of 194 Old 01-31-2006, 08:39 AM
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I don't know about others, but I'm having a great deal of difficulty determining if and when I have acheived 1:1. I tried Stoomonster's method with the Hor/Ver test patterns, but nothing seems definitive. Any advice, tricks, sympathy? ;)

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post #11 of 194 Old 01-31-2006, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pstrisik
I don't know about others, but I'm having a great deal of difficulty determining if and when I have acheived 1:1. I tried Stoomonster's method with the Hor/Ver test patterns, but nothing seems definitive. Any advice, tricks, sympathy? ;)
You have my sympathy, I've had some trouble, too. I'd suggest that you concentrate on this test pattern first, called "hor. lines" on my HD+:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
..................................................
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
..................................................

There every second line is painted. How does this test pattern look on your display? Is it a perfectly even gray area without any color shades and without any darker and lighter sub areas? With 1:1 pixel mapping I have a perfect even gray screen and I can see each 2nd line black and each 2nd line white. If I move away just one step from 1:1 pixel mapping, I have horizontal bars which are light gray and other horizontal bars which are a darker shade of gray. Also on some horizontal bars I can clearly identify black/white lines, while on other bars I only seem to see an all gray pixel mess.
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post #12 of 194 Old 01-31-2006, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pstrisik
I don't know about others, but I'm having a great deal of difficulty determining if and when I have acheived 1:1. I tried Stoomonster's method with the Hor/Ver test patterns, but nothing seems definitive. Any advice, tricks, sympathy? ;)
Again, I don't have a DVDO so my test patterns are different and I have had some doubt if I got perfect 1:1 because the vertical pattern locks in without a doubt but the horizontal is a bit iffy. I was relieved of most of my doubt because other "expert" users of my VP (C1) and display have assured me that they have experienced the same issue. Still, in the end, as always but something a lot of us tend to forget, it is your perception of the PQ that should be paramount. In my case, the PQ improved so much that even if I don't have absolutely pefect 1:1 it's really so much better than before I tried to get 1:1 that I'm basically ok with my configuration. So, has your fiddling improved the PQ significantly?
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post #13 of 194 Old 01-31-2006, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
You have my sympathy, I've had some trouble, too. I'd suggest that you concentrate on this test pattern first, called "hor. lines" on my HD+:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
..................................................
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
..................................................

There every second line is painted. How does this test pattern look on your display? Is it a perfectly even gray area without any color shades and without any darker and lighter sub areas? With 1:1 pixel mapping I have a perfect even gray screen and I can see each 2nd line black and each 2nd line white. If I move away just one step from 1:1 pixel mapping, I have horizontal bars which are light gray and other horizontal bars which are a darker shade of gray. Also on some horizontal bars I can clearly identify black/white lines, while on other bars I only seem to see an all gray pixel mess.
This may be helpful Madshi. I've only looked at the patterns from viewing distance to get rid of the "rainbows" that stoomonster referred to. I found that the range of settings that produce what appears to be a uniform gray screen from 9 feet is to wide. I will try again looking from closer to the screen.

Thanks......

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. . . . . . . . . . . Peter

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post #14 of 194 Old 01-31-2006, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D
Again, I don't have a DVDO so my test patterns are different and I have had some doubt if I got perfect 1:1 because the vertical pattern locks in without a doubt but the horizontal is a bit iffy. I was relieved of most of my doubt because other "expert" users of my VP (C1) and display have assured me that they have experienced the same issue. Still, in the end, as always but something a lot of us tend to forget, it is your perception of the PQ that should be paramount. In my case, the PQ improved so much that even if I don't have absolutely pefect 1:1 it's really so much better than before I tried to get 1:1 that I'm basically ok with my configuration. So, has your fiddling improved the PQ significantly?
Hi Jack... Unfortunately, I haven't yet seen significant difference in my 1366x768 setting with tweaks vs. 720p. Maybe that means I haven't acheived 1:1 yet. Wish there was a clearer dependent variable to obtain.

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post #15 of 194 Old 01-31-2006, 04:37 PM
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I believe I used Oferlaor's timings for the 7 series 50". My HBack was 294 as I recall. When you get 1:1, it is really apparent using the test patterns.
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post #16 of 194 Old 01-31-2006, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pstrisik
Hi Jack... Unfortunately, I haven't yet seen significant difference in my 1366x768 setting with tweaks vs. 720p. Maybe that means I haven't acheived 1:1 yet. Wish there was a clearer dependent variable to obtain.
I know the feeling but it's true that you will know when the test pattern snaps in. Not very scientific and when people told me that, I asked what the hell it meant, but It's like a sudden insight; it just hits you and doesn't matter how far or close to the screen you are. You are basically adjusting the horizontal and vertical size of your monitor. I did it from within the service menu because you have a finer level of control than from the user level. You only would have to fiddle with the timings in difficult cases.

I have a 6th gen panel and I was advised that it's much easier to get 1:1 via RGBVH--I don't know for sure but I think that applies to the newer gens too at least if the choices are RGBVH or DVI. It seems that Panny's implementation of DVI on that blade is not very good. It is very picky and there is noise in the lower IRE. I haven't heard anything from someone who knows about the HDMI blade if Panny did a better job. As mentioned, Ofer did it via HDMI but he's a guru so that doesn't necessarily mean the average guy will have an easy time of it.

Oh, one other thing. If you think you have 1:1 but the size of the active picture is not exactly correct when you send the NR from your VP, you can play around with the resolution that you send to the PDP. In other words you might not send it exactly the NR. You can play around with slightly more or less pixels. In my case, I got 1:1 or close when sending the NR of the PDP but the picture did not fill out the full possible pixels (there were black bars on the horiztonal and vertical of a few pixels width) so I had to go back and increase the resolution I was sending from the VP by 4-8 pixels and then re map for 1:1.
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post #17 of 194 Old 02-01-2006, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D
You are basically adjusting the horizontal and vertical size of your monitor. I did it from within the service menu because you have a finer level of control than from the user manual.
Which parameters in the service menu are that? Can you give me a short description on how to do that? Thanks!
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post #18 of 194 Old 02-01-2006, 02:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
Which parameters in the service menu are that? Can you give me a short description on how to do that? Thanks!
Madshi,
I don't think we are supposed to talk about service menu adjustments here. I'll PM you.
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post #19 of 194 Old 02-01-2006, 08:52 AM
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Madshi,
I don't think we are supposed to talk about service menu adjustments here. I'll PM you.
Please PM me as well :)

Thanks
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post #20 of 194 Old 02-01-2006, 08:56 AM
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I've just reset my user size/position controls to "normal" and changed everything in the service menu. As far as I can see, there's no basic difference. The ranges are wider in the service menu. But the effect is the same. The settings in the service menu don't seem to be finer to me. Anyway, it's nice to have the user controls normalized now. Thanks, Jack D!
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post #21 of 194 Old 02-01-2006, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
I've just reset my user size/position controls to "normal" and changed everything in the service menu. As far as I can see, there's no basic difference. The ranges are wider in the service menu. But the effect is the same. The settings in the service menu don't seem to be finer to me. Anyway, it's nice to have the user controls normalized now. Thanks, Jack D!
Well you might be correct that the service adjustments are not finer but I'm not so sure and, yes, the ranges are wider. In any case, the other advantage is that I have always hated the user level adjustments as you have to keep moving the level or the bar disappears and you go back to the full menu, which gets in the way of the picture or pattern you are trying to calibrate. At least that is the way it is on 6th gen. Don't know if they fixed that in later gens.

After calibrating the h and v size I also worked with the overscan screen (on the C1, I assume there is one on the DVDOs as well) from within the service menu for the same reasons.
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post #22 of 194 Old 02-01-2006, 10:55 AM
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The main reason why I like the service mode adjustments is that nobody will ever accidently change them. So I have my 1:1 pixel mapping parameters carved in stone now.

And yes, if I understand your description correctly, then it's still the same way in 50PHD8, I believe.
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post #23 of 194 Old 02-01-2006, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
The main reason why I like the service mode adjustments is that nobody will ever accidently change them. So I have my 1:1 pixel mapping parameters carved in stone now.

And yes, if I understand your description correctly, then it's still the same way in 50PHD8, I believe.
Did you have to fiddle with the timings or just the V and H size? You are using RGBVH. I wonder if it is straightforward with HDMI. I'll be picking up a 50PDH8 in the next couple of months so I'm interested to know the details. I guess you are using 50hz, right?
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post #24 of 194 Old 02-01-2006, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D
Did you have to fiddle with the timings or just the V and H size? You are using RGBVH. I wonder if it is straightforward with HDMI. I'll be picking up a 50PDH8 in the next couple of months so I'm interested to know the details. I guess you are using 50hz, right?
Yes, RGBVH with 50Hz. I had to fiddle with the timings. I used Vesa timings for H and self found timings for V. Don't know why, but achieving 1:1 pixel mapping with my brand new 50PHD8 was more difficult for me than with the previous 50PHD7.
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post #25 of 194 Old 02-01-2006, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Based on my limited observations, I do not think it is possible to enter ANY of the Panny plasmas via HDMI and get native rate 1366x768.

It has been done with RGBHV and DVI but, not with HDMI. It has also been done with an HDMI to DVI converter but, the card in the Panny MUST be DVI.

If I am mistaken and anyone has done it, please post it or PM me...I'm going nuts over this and DVDO and Panny do not seem to know the answers either.
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post #26 of 194 Old 02-01-2006, 02:40 PM
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For true 1:1 mapping, you should be feeding exactly native rate and both vertical and horizontal line patterns should render perfect alternating dark/light one-pixel rows. Overscan should be exactly zero. You then adjust input sizing to give the equivalent of around 1-2 percent overscan or whatever you prefer.
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post #27 of 194 Old 02-01-2006, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat
For true 1:1 mapping, you should be feeding exactly native rate and both vertical and horizontal line patterns should render perfect alternating dark/light one-pixel rows. Overscan should be exactly zero. You then adjust input sizing to give the equivalent of around 1-2 percent overscan or whatever you prefer.
So, it sounds like setting the VP to 1366x768 and no tweaks. Overscan to zero. Then work with the hor and vert size settings on the display (not the VP) until hor and vert line test patterns get smooth. Then adjust input size.

Is that it? When folks talk about timings, that just means tweaking the 1366x768 settings in the output menu, which we shouldn't do?

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. . . . . . . . . . . Peter

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post #28 of 194 Old 02-01-2006, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I get no picture using any of the timing settings I have printed from the NR thread. Moving the H & V settings one click at a time still yields no image..just a black screen.

Starting to get fed up..it's only been 3 days though :)
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post #29 of 194 Old 02-01-2006, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pstrisik
So, it sounds like setting the VP to 1366x768 and no tweaks. Overscan to zero. Then work with the hor and vert size settings on the display (not the VP) until hor and vert line test patterns get smooth. Then adjust input size.

Is that it? When folks talk about timings, that just means tweaking the 1366x768 settings in the output menu, which we shouldn't do?
That sounds like a great start. I've heard the default timings work, but whether you'll get 1:1 right off the bat (or at all) I don't know. It's possible you'll have to experiment with different timings to get 1:1.
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post #30 of 194 Old 02-01-2006, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notanewbie
Based on my limited observations, I do not think it is possible to enter ANY of the Panny plasmas via HDMI and get native rate 1366x768.

It has been done with RGBHV and DVI but, not with HDMI. It has also been done with an HDMI to DVI converter but, the card in the Panny MUST be DVI.

If I am mistaken and anyone has done it, please post it or PM me...I'm going nuts over this and DVDO and Panny do not seem to know the answers either.
I'm pretty sure Ofer has done it.
Jack D is offline  
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