Reon-VX vs. Realta chip? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 79 Old 06-25-2006, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Anybody know what limitations the new Silicon Optix Reon-VX chip will have compared to the Realta? I assume the Reon-VX will be able to stretch the image for CIH applications using an anamorphic lens. Correct or no?

The Reon-VX has been picked up by Mitsubishi in the HC5000 and Benq in the SP-820 projectors, both due out this fall/winter.
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post #2 of 79 Old 06-25-2006, 08:13 PM
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The Reon certainly has the capability to do anamorphic stretching. However, I cant make any claims as to whether or not any products that might use Reon (or any of our chips) will implement a feature like this.

Thanks,

Andy K.
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post #3 of 79 Old 06-26-2006, 12:05 AM
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Andy, thanks for chiming in. Could you please give us a small run down on what the differences are between Reon and Realta?

Also can the Reon be passively cooled?

Another question: Are you planning to do a Realta die shrink with the aim to reduce power consumption/heat, so that VP manufacturers can get along without fans? I do like what the Realta offers, but every Realta VP (Radiance, Vantage-HD, DragonFly) uses a fan, which is really putting me off a bit.

Thanks very much!!
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post #4 of 79 Old 06-26-2006, 01:00 AM
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I'm thinking same algorithms, lower computational accuracy. Am I far from the mark?
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post #5 of 79 Old 06-26-2006, 08:37 AM
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Regarding the comparison between the two product families, I'm working on it

Reon can indeed be passively cooled.

I can't comment on future plans, unfortunately.

Thanks,

Andy K.
ASIC Design Engineer
Silicon Optix, Inc.
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post #6 of 79 Old 06-26-2006, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kromkamp View Post

I can't comment on future plans, unfortunately.

Too bad...

A strange idea: If a VP manufacturer desperately wanted to get along without a fan while using the Realta, would it be a solution to use two Realtas and downclock + downvolt both of them? Would that technically work out fine? Of course it would probably be too costly...
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post #7 of 79 Old 06-26-2006, 09:58 AM
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They could do better than that, actually - we do have customer designs (for example the Denon 5910) that have a fanless Realta solution.

Thanks,

Andy K.
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post #8 of 79 Old 06-26-2006, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks a bunch for your replies, Andy. I look forward to seeing a comparison between the two chips.

Richard
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post #9 of 79 Old 06-28-2006, 12:09 AM
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Andy K,

Heat pipes?

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post #10 of 79 Old 06-28-2006, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oferlaor View Post

Andy K,

Heat pipes?

And/or undervolting/underclocking it. In the 5910, the Realta is only deinterlacing SD, so it should not be working too hard in there. Even scaling is performed by an alternate chip (ABT, IIRC).

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post #11 of 79 Old 06-28-2006, 04:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k View Post

And/or undervolting/underclocking it. In the 5910, the Realta is only deinterlacing SD, so it should not be working too hard in there. Even scaling is performed by an alternate chip (ABT, IIRC).

The 5910 still has plenty of ventilation slots in the top of the unit as well. Internally it must still generate a fair bit of heat.
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post #12 of 79 Old 06-28-2006, 11:48 AM
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I just wandered over to take a look at the heatsink in a 5910 - its fairly hefty but still just a regular heat sink - no heat pipe to a larger heatsink somewhere else.

Although its only deinterlacing SD we still measure that the power drain is very nearly the same. The algorithms do more operations on each pixel in SD mode so the total number of operations done is roughly the same.

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post #13 of 79 Old 06-29-2006, 05:42 AM
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So there is not enough power to do the SD level of processing on HD?

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post #14 of 79 Old 06-29-2006, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

So there is not enough power to do the SD level of processing on HD?

Well, if you have a processor which runs the same algorithms in both SD and HD, the processor would be almost idle for SD processing. That'd not be optimal, would it? I do like the idea that a processor spends more time on each SD pixel to further optimize image quality.

However, Dale Adams already said that his ABT102 will run the very same algorithms for HD content and SD content. What he said sounded very much like HD processing per pixel would be identical to SD processing per pixel. So I guess the HD version of the ABT102 will be almost idle for SD processing.

The interesting tidbit is: If the SD version of the ABT102 is similar to the Realta, and if what I wrote above is true, then the HD version of the ABT102 should have superior image quality compared to the Realta for HD content.

Any thoughts about this, anyone?
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post #15 of 79 Old 06-29-2006, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Well, if you have a processor which runs the same algorithms in both SD and HD, the processor would be almost idle for SD processing. That'd not be optimal, would it? I do like the idea that a processor spends more time on each SD pixel to further optimize image quality.

However, Dale Adams already said that his ABT102 will run the very same algorithms for HD content and SD content. What he said sounded very much like HD processing per pixel would be identical to SD processing per pixel. So I guess the HD version of the ABT102 will be almost idle for SD processing.

The interesting tidbit is: If the SD version of the ABT102 is similar to the Realta, and if what I wrote above is true, then the HD version of the ABT102 should have superior image quality compared to the Realta for HD content.

Any thoughts about this, anyone?

It depends upon how much processing is required for each increment of PQ. Since ABT seems to specialize in deinterlacing, I would expect the HD version to be superior here as well. However, noise reduction, et al., may not have similar functionality. Realta and Gennum both have extensive NR algorithms, IIRC, so it is not surprising that the Realta would do more for SD given how intensive NR can be.

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post #16 of 79 Old 06-30-2006, 04:39 AM
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Look here for a first DragonFly user report:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=694130

Unfortunately, it's another VP with fan/noise problems. So now we have 3 Realta based VPs (TheaterSync, Vantage-HD and DragonFly), all of which have a fan. And Lumagen has already said their Realta based VP will also have a fan. I don't know why the 5910 gets along with passive cooling, probably there's a specific reason for that (maybe it's clocked lower or whatever). But if all 4 general purpose external VPs based on Realta have a fan, then that can't be just coincidence. IMHO the Realta needs another stepping or maybe a die shrink, so that it can be passively cooled. I hope Silicon Optix takes this seriously.

The DragonFly could have been a nice VP, I love the small form factor. But the fan inside kills the deal for me.
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post #17 of 79 Old 06-30-2006, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Look here for a first DragonFly user report:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=694130

Unfortunately, it's another VP with fan/noise problems. So now we have 3 Realta based VPs (TheaterSync, Vantage-HD and DragonFly), all of which have a fan. And Lumagen has already said their Realta based VP will also have a fan. I don't know why the 5910 gets along with passive cooling, probably there's a specific reason for that (maybe it's clocked lower or whatever). But if all 4 general purpose external VPs based on Realta have a fan, then that can't be just coincidence. IMHO the Realta needs another stepping or maybe a die shrink, so that it can be passively cooled. I hope Silicon Optix takes this seriously.

The DragonFly could have been a nice VP, I love the small form factor. But the fan inside kills the deal for me.

I'm pretty sure the 5910 has huge heatsinks. Not something that's really an option in a 1RU video processor.

Of course, they could always make the box bigger to fit bigger heatsinks. It's not like going for a 5-6RU case is going to affect picture quality any.
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post #18 of 79 Old 06-30-2006, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

The DragonFly could have been a nice VP, I love the small form factor. But the fan inside kills the deal for me.

It's short about three HDMI inputs for me, but I agree the 1U case is very appealing.

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post #19 of 79 Old 07-01-2006, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carled View Post

I'm pretty sure the 5910 has huge heatsinks. Not something that's really an option in a 1RU video processor.

Of course, they could always make the box bigger to fit bigger heatsinks. It's not like going for a 5-6RU case is going to affect picture quality any.

In the Lumagen forums Jim Peterson has stated that the Radiance case will be as big as the Vision HDP Pro, so that he can put a bigger fan in. See here:

http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/forum...&start=0&rid=0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Peterson View Post

Both the RadianceXS and the RadianceXD will be in a 2U case similar to the VisionPro HDP, but with a new look to the faceplate. We need the extra height, verses the VisionHDQ, so we can use a larger fan and keep the noise level as low as possible.

So although the Radiance has a bigger case, Lumagen doesn't seem to think they can get along without a fan.
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post #20 of 79 Old 07-01-2006, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

So although the Radiance has a bigger case, Lumagen doesn't seem to think they can get along without a fan.

Well yes, but there's quite a difference between 2RU and, say, a 5RU case.
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post #21 of 79 Old 07-01-2006, 12:37 AM
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Well, a 5RU case is not a case but a wardrobe...
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post #22 of 79 Old 07-01-2006, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
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Well, a 5RU case is not a case but a wardrobe...

Flip it upside down, put some big legs on it, get a blanket to make some curtains around the base, and you've got the makings of a nice kotatsu. It'll keep you warm, and improve your picture quality.
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post #23 of 79 Old 07-01-2006, 06:14 AM
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Your kidding, but I tried this and the fan noise almost becomes inaudible. You have made a hush box without a vent pipe! The air volume under the table for cooling, the slight leakage around the bottom and the floor, and the blanky for noise reduction. QUIET! Turning it upside down because the bottom is heavier than the top. Be sure the blanky doesn't block the vents, that pathway should be free to exit into the tent made by the blanky A small table but with a top substantially deeper than the unit with the unit on the top and the blanket covering it all.A couple of pieces of rubber between the upside down top and the table to prevent vibration and cratches. An IR repeater to control it, the built in IR sensor is covered by the blanky. NO I DON'T HAVE A MOSQUITO YET SO I ACTUALLY HAVEN"T DONE THIS. And I have an equipent walk through closet so fan noise to me is never a problem for me. BUT CARLED has a BRILLIANT solution. Embroider your blanky with a BIG THANKS CARLED!

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post #24 of 79 Old 07-02-2006, 03:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Your kidding, but I tried this and the fan noise almost becomes inaudible. You have made a hush box without a vent pipe! The air volume under the table for cooling, the slight leakage around the bottom and the floor, and the blanky for noise reduction. QUIET! Turning it upside down because the bottom is heavier than the top. Be sure the blanky doesn't block the vents, that pathway should be free to exit into the tent made by the blanky A small table but with a top substantially deeper than the unit with the unit on the top and the blanket covering it all.A couple of pieces of rubber between the upside down top and the table to prevent vibration and cratches. An IR repeater to control it, the built in IR sensor is covered by the blanky. NO I DON'T HAVE A MOSQUITO YET SO I ACTUALLY HAVEN"T DONE THIS. And I have an equipent walk through closet so fan noise to me is never a problem for me. BUT CARLED has a BRILLIANT solution. Embroider your blanky with a BIG THANKS CARLED!

Aww shucks...
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post #25 of 79 Old 07-02-2006, 09:35 AM
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not a good idea with the mosquito, folks, I put mine on a slightly hot PVR and I had to send it in for repair. I've lifted it up some more now and no problems since.

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post #26 of 79 Old 07-03-2006, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by oferlaor View Post

not a good idea with the mosquito, folks, I put mine on a slightly hot PVR and I had to send it in for repair. I've lifted it up some more now and no problems since.

Bet that wouldn't have happened if it had foot-high heatsinks.
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post #27 of 79 Old 07-03-2006, 07:56 AM
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carled,

It's the most stylish thing on my HT system... The clever use of the blue microled inside the i in algolith and the displayless brushed aluminum look usually causes people to ask WTH is that?

After all, isn't that part of the big attraction of having components like that in your system?

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post #28 of 79 Old 07-03-2006, 09:42 AM
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Ofer. No. Actually it isn't and it shouldn't be unless you are having an HT meet. In the best theaters you do not see anything but the screen and some speakers. Let the picture and sound speak for your good taste and wisdom in component selection. Put it in a nice Mid Atlantic rack in an equipment room or closet.

Suppose you don't.

Guest. OH. What are those BEEEAUUTIFUL silver boxes?

Host. Thanks, I thought you would never ask. Uh, one's a video noise reducer and the other is a video processor.

Guest. Huh. Whatz they do?

Host. Well the first silver box removes Mosquito noise and a few other types of noise from the picture.

Guest. Is that why I don't hear any noise coming from the picture?

Host. No. I said it removes various types of video noise, not audio noise. Here, I'll do some A/Bs to show you the difference with it in or out of my system.

Guest. That's OK. Uh, could we just watch the game (or movie)?

Host. And the second silver box does everything that my display does except display the picture but it does it better. Here, I'll get my demo test pattern discs and show you how it removes deinterlacing artifacts.

Guest. You mean you used it to steal artifacts from the de international lace museum?

Host. No. But that's OK. Let's just watch the game. Wanna beer?

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post #29 of 79 Old 07-03-2006, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

No. Actually it isn't and it shouldn't be unless you are having an HT meet. The best theaters you do not see anything but the screen and some speakers. .Let the picture and sound speak for your good taste and wisdom in component selection.

Precisely.
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post #30 of 79 Old 07-04-2006, 12:51 AM
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LOL,

I guess it's a question of perspective. There are two philisophies - one that puts all the equpiment in the back, deeply hidden away. The second is to put the stuff right next to your display, in plain view.

That also explains people's facination with crazy tube designs for amps...

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