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post #3391 of 3414 Old 04-26-2009, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave G View Post


What is this, bad analogy day at AVS? Sorry, but we're talking calibration, not exactly the same playing field in terms of technicality or learned skills. It takes a little while to wrap your head around the concepts involved in a calibration, but to compare it to surgery... give me a break.

I think the true experts would disagree that the playing field between technicality and learnd experience to a surgeon is not too far off... It belittle's their expertise to say such..

Analogy or not, no DIYer will ever surpass or equal a seasoned veteran in terms of experience, abilities or their sophisticated / expensive equipment. All pieces of the puzzle being equally important.. Ken Whitcomb, William Phelps, Dan Francis, Chris Collins, have made a career of it.. The aforementioned characteristics that make for an excellent calibrator are equally applicable to a top end surgeon as well. That was the analogy's premise. Simply buying an eye, understanding the concepts of calibration are not enough to get to perfection.

But it's a hobby and who says the calibration has to be the most accurate anyways?? So have at it!!!

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #3392 of 3414 Old 04-26-2009, 11:50 AM
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Mostly agreed, again. I don't think my own calibration would be as good as a seasoned pro, but how worse off is the real question. The little knowledge that I have makes me feel that any money I'd spend on calibration would be a waste, because of the law of diminishing returns. At some point, you just get close enough, expensive probes or not. Shaving another .1 in the dE will not yield any detectable, real world improvement. If you want to pay for that, more power to you.

I maintain that these two fields require vastly different amounts of study, experience, and skills. The comparison between a surgeon and an ISF calibrator does belittle one of them, just not the one you think. This isn't to say the folks you quote aren't a talented bunch. But come on...

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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I think the true experts would disagree that the playing field between technicality and learnd experience to a surgeon is not too far off... It belittle's their expertise to say such..

Analogy or not, no DIYer will ever surpass or equal a seasoned veteran in terms of experience, abilities or their sophisticated / expensive equipment. All pieces of the puzzle being equally important.. Ken Whitcomb, William Phelps, Dan Francis, Chris Collins, have made a career of it.. The aforementioned characteristics that make for an excellent calibrator are equally applicable to a top end surgeon as well. That was the analogy's premise. Simply buying an eye, understanding the concepts of calibration are not enough to get to perfection.

But it's a hobby and who says the calibration has to be the most accurate anyways?? So have at it!!!

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post #3393 of 3414 Old 04-26-2009, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachComber View Post

I have noticed some different readings using an Accupel Test Pattern Generator and the Lumagen Patterns. There were some pretty significant differences in the IRE patterns, so before I started to work on a monitor yesterday, I measured RGB at 100IRE from the Accupel and the Radiance. I did a full factory reset on the Radiance as well fwiw.

The Accupel was feeding the Radiance - and the Radiance was set to 1080p60. There are more differences than I would like to see - and the difference on the y axis in the Green is 10%....the blue isn't exactly comforting either.

The fL on the green was significantly different as well.

Accupel Red/Radiance Red


Accupel Green/Radiance Green



Accupel Blue/Radiance Blue



To put it bluntly, I am more than a little concerned.

I can't reproduce this.

Accupel x y Y cd/m2
White 0.312 0.328 1.000 53.1
Red 0.644 0.333 0.207 11.0
Green 0.300 0.608 0.708 37.6
Blue 0.147 0.058 0.068 3.6
Radiance
White 0.312 0.327 1.000 52.3
Red 0.647 0.333 0.202 10.6
Green 0.299 0.608 0.712 37.2
Blue 0.147 0.059 0.068 3.5

The only thing I can suggest is ensure that your aim point remains constant and that the test patterns are the adjustable types, which are affected by the configuration's color management settings.

Tom Huffman
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ISF/THX Calibrations
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post #3394 of 3414 Old 04-26-2009, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I can't reproduce this.

Accupel x y Y cd/m2
White 0.312 0.328 1.000 53.1
Red 0.644 0.333 0.207 11.0
Green 0.300 0.608 0.708 37.6
Blue 0.147 0.058 0.068 3.6
Radiance
White 0.312 0.327 1.000 52.3
Red 0.647 0.333 0.202 10.6
Green 0.299 0.608 0.712 37.2
Blue 0.147 0.059 0.068 3.5

The only thing I can suggest is ensure that your aim point remains constant and that the test patterns are the adjustable types, which are affected by the configuration's color management settings.


Hmmm.... I wonder if one of the units has gone bad.
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post #3395 of 3414 Old 04-27-2009, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachComber View Post

Hmmm.... I wonder if one of the units has gone bad.

I didn't measure any (significant) differences between an AccuPel 4000 and a Radiance XD either.

If you are using an AccuPel 4000, keep in mind that if you select YCbCr, the device you are sending it to could very well NOT recognize it as YCbCr and you get very messed up color. So be sure to set the AccuPel to RGB-Video to insure you aren't sending a signal the Radiance isn't recognizing as YCbCr. The AccuPel sends YCbCr but the destination component thinks it is RGB so you get very wrong color (probably worse than what you measured).

I don't remember if I ever checked to see whether the Radiance recognizes the AccuPel's YCbCr as YCbCr or RGB (don't have a Radiance here right now so can't check it). I habitually use RGB-Video for the output mode for the AccuPel so I may not have tried the YCbCr mode before.

AccuPel was supposed to be working on a DVI to HDMI adapter that contains an extra circuit that would send what the destination device needs to see in order to switch to YCbCr mode but I haven't heard anything about that becoming available in a long time.

I don't know if this applies to the AccuPel 3000 or not.

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post #3396 of 3414 Old 04-28-2009, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

I didn't measure any (significant) differences between an AccuPel 4000 and a Radiance XD either.

If you are using an AccuPel 4000, keep in mind that if you select YCbCr, the device you are sending it to could very well NOT recognize it as YCbCr and you get very messed up color. So be sure to set the AccuPel to RGB-Video to insure you aren't sending a signal the Radiance isn't recognizing as YCbCr. The AccuPel sends YCbCr but the destination component thinks it is RGB so you get very wrong color (probably worse than what you measured).

I don't remember if I ever checked to see whether the Radiance recognizes the AccuPel's YCbCr as YCbCr or RGB (don't have a Radiance here right now so can't check it). I habitually use RGB-Video for the output mode for the AccuPel so I may not have tried the YCbCr mode before.

AccuPel was supposed to be working on a DVI to HDMI adapter that contains an extra circuit that would send what the destination device needs to see in order to switch to YCbCr mode but I haven't heard anything about that becoming available in a long time.

I don't know if this applies to the AccuPel 3000 or not.

Thanks.

I unplugged both the Accupel and the Lumagen, restarting both. At that point, I could not get the dramatic difference that I have seen at some points, so I am not exactly sure what is going on.

I would state that I did stumble in the settings from a Directv HD DVR (HR2x series via HDMI), for some reason the Lumagen seems to see it as PC instead of Video Color Space. I am still trying to figure out what is going on with that one.
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post #3397 of 3414 Old 04-28-2009, 01:31 PM
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Anybody in the San Antonio, TX area own a Radiance? If so, please pm me. Thanks
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post #3398 of 3414 Old 04-28-2009, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachComber View Post

Thanks.

...
I would state that I did stumble in the settings from a Directv HD DVR (HR2x series via HDMI), for some reason the Lumagen seems to see it as PC instead of Video Color Space. I am still trying to figure out what is going on with that one.

Do you mean RGB video werses RGB PC level? This is a manual setting in the Radiance.

YCbCr is always video level for HDMI.

Jim Peterson
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post #3399 of 3414 Old 04-29-2009, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

Do you mean RGB video werses RGB PC level? This is a manual setting in the Radiance.

YCbCr is always video level for HDMI.

Why would some of the setting go to RGB PC and others RGB Video after a Factory Reset
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post #3400 of 3414 Old 04-29-2009, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachComber View Post

Why would some of the setting go to RGB PC and others RGB Video after a Factory Reset

It's been a long time since I saw the Factory Reset settings, but I think the default is RGB PC. My SA 8300 HD input over HDMI is seen as RGB by the XD and I have to set the XD manually to see it as video to get acceptable PQ. If I remember correctly, the XD menu for that setting says something about being needed for some STBs. Don't know whether this is unique to a SA 8300 with Navigator software but the STB when changing from component to HDMI (i.e after plugging in the HDMI cable and switching XD inputs) says it sees the XD as DVI not HDMI although audio is sent over HDMI.
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post #3401 of 3414 Old 04-29-2009, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachComber View Post

I would state that I did stumble in the settings from a Directv HD DVR (HR2x series via HDMI), for some reason the Lumagen seems to see it as PC instead of Video Color Space. I am still trying to figure out what is going on with that one.

More than likely, DirecTV cheaped out and took their DVI DVR box, removed the DVI connector (which is RGB output), added an HDMI output, but simply fed the RGB from the old DVI connector to the HDMI without adding a YCbCr conversion (which would require adding Color Matrix processing to convert the RGB to YCbCr.

That said, the DVR should be outputting 16-235 RGB and NOT 0-255 RGB - it is fairly easy to tell - not sure if the Radiance Info function for the input signal will tell you whether it is receiving 16-235 or 0-255... but it sounds for sure like the DirecTV box is definitely outputting RGB... which should not be a problem of any kind, especially if it is 16-235 RGB.

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post #3402 of 3414 Old 04-29-2009, 09:06 AM
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My DirecTV HR2x series all output YCbCr 4:4:4, and I have had 3 different versions. Have you checked the video EDID settings?
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post #3403 of 3414 Old 04-30-2009, 01:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cal87 View Post

My DirecTV HR2x series all output YCbCr 4:4:4, and I have had 3 different versions. Have you checked the video EDID settings?

I have 2 HD2x DVRs and 1 H2x STB - The Radiance has them marked as PC, not Video. It also has the a Dish ViP 2k VIP as PC.

It does however, have have a Motorola DVR and a SA 8300HD as Video, not PC.

Again, I did a factory reset just prior, so I certainly did not change any of the settings to PC (actually at any time with the Radiance).
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post #3404 of 3414 Old 05-03-2009, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachComber View Post

Why would some of the setting go to RGB PC and others RGB Video after a Factory Reset

I just did a factory reset and HDMI inputs are RGB video level as well as RGB outputs at video level. Note: If you have an early box (that would have had PC level for RGB] and have not done a factory reset, the PC-level setting would still be there.

We did change this some time ago due to test pattern generators outputting RGB video levels. The problem was some calibrators had the (then) default RGB PC levels and did not change the setting, and calibrating with a RGB video level pattern generator gave inaccurate results.

Jim Peterson
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post #3405 of 3414 Old 05-03-2009, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsinger View Post

It's been a long time since I saw the Factory Reset settings, but I think the default is RGB PC. My SA 8300 HD input over HDMI is seen as RGB by the XD and I have to set the XD manually to see it as video to get acceptable PQ. If I remember correctly, the XD menu for that setting says something about being needed for some STBs. Don't know whether this is unique to a SA 8300 with Navigator software but the STB when changing from component to HDMI (i.e after plugging in the HDMI cable and switching XD inputs) says it sees the XD as DVI not HDMI although audio is sent over HDMI.

I suspect this is just a status screen issue with thier box as they would not be sending audio if they truely though we were a DVI device.

Jim Peterson
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post #3406 of 3414 Old 05-22-2009, 03:23 PM
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Hello, well I did search for "comb filter" on this thread and nothing came up, so hopefully my question hasn't come up before (I dislike people who ask questions in forums without searching beforehand).

Anyway, a topic in another thread got me thinking about the quality of the comb filter in the RadianceXD. I know this is a bit "old school", but if I ran a composite out from my LD player to the RadianceXD would I get the same level of quality vs. having something like a Entech SVSI-1 taking the composite out of the LD player and providing the RadianceXD an S-video signal?

I know the Entech SVSI-1 is considered to have one of the best comb filters out there, but if one didn't want to have to track one down would the RadianceXD perform as well or perhaps even better?

What are your thoughts?

For those that are wondering, although I don't have an extensive LD collection my 100+ or so do contain movies that either haven't come out on DVD or the version that has come out on DVD was altered to the point where I prefer the version on my LD.

"No matter where you go, there you are."
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post #3407 of 3414 Old 05-30-2009, 02:50 AM
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Is a "Pro" Radiance ith SDI still planned?
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post #3408 of 3414 Old 05-30-2009, 08:03 AM
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My understand is NO, that idea was canned, or put so far down on the priority list it will never happen. I offered the Black Magic SDI to HDMI adapter at cost for those anyone to try out HD-SDI into a radiance. I think there were 3 people who identified themselves as having a real interest in using HD-SDI, there were no takers on the offer. With that kind of interest, and the lack of HD-SDI sources or companies to do the mods to existing players, I don't see them doing the development. Consider the relatively much much higher number that would want HDMI 1.3, and it's only in beta still. I don't see HD-SDI happening on this box, as much as I personally would love to see it.
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post #3409 of 3414 Old 05-30-2009, 09:41 AM
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I agree on the lack of source products that offer HD-SDI. They seem to mostly exist as expensive mods that only hardcore enthusiasts would spend the money on. I also believe that the lack of education to the benefits is also part of the problem. If you were to ask any 20 people randomly walking in or out of best buy what HD-SDI is and what were the benefits, I'd bet all 20 would not know the answer.

I for one would like to see HD-SDI source products and HD-SDI video processors to grab the purest video right out of the decoder.
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post #3410 of 3414 Old 05-30-2009, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

My understand is NO, that idea was canned, or put so far down on the priority list it will never happen. I offered the Black Magic SDI to HDMI adapter at cost for those anyone to try out HD-SDI into a radiance. I think there were 3 people who identified themselves as having a real interest in using HD-SDI, there were no takers on the offer. With that kind of interest, and the lack of HD-SDI sources or companies to do the mods to existing players, I don't see them doing the development. Consider the relatively much much higher number that would want HDMI 1.3, and it's only in beta still. I don't see HD-SDI happening on this box, as much as I personally would love to see it.

They're probably going to do the XS model first, and then maybe the Pro model. It's still hypothetical at this point, but it hasn't been canned that I know of. Note that HD-SDI is not the only feature the Pro would offer over the current model. In particular, a bigger FPGA (processor) would allow for more complex picture processing. See FAQ link in my sig.
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post #3411 of 3414 Old 05-30-2009, 02:52 PM
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I only want 2 SD-SDI actually, just trying to avoid converters nad minatain the superb pics I get from my Sat and Freeview factory fitted SDI sources..
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post #3412 of 3414 Old 05-30-2009, 03:56 PM
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HD-SDI is backward compatible with the SD variety.
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post #3413 of 3414 Old 05-31-2009, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmoryS View Post

Hello, well I did search for "comb filter" on this thread and nothing came up, so hopefully my question hasn't come up before (I dislike people who ask questions in forums without searching beforehand).

Anyway, a topic in another thread got me thinking about the quality of the comb filter in the RadianceXD. I know this is a bit "old school", but if I ran a composite out from my LD player to the RadianceXD would I get the same level of quality vs. having something like a Entech SVSI-1 taking the composite out of the LD player and providing the RadianceXD an S-video signal?

I know the Entech SVSI-1 is considered to have one of the best comb filters out there, but if one didn't want to have to track one down would the RadianceXD perform as well or perhaps even better?

What are your thoughts?

The Radiance series has a good, but not a 3D, comb filter. If the player has an exceptiona SVideo output, use it rather than the composite input to the Radiance. Note that the VisionHDQ has an excellent 3D comb filter, but we did not think that composite was as important with the latest Radiance generation and so it uses a "2D" comb filter..

Jim Peterson
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post #3414 of 3414 Old 05-31-2009, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krobar View Post

Is a "Pro" Radiance ith SDI still planned?

A Pro Radiance model is still planned. It is a long way off though.

Currently it is still planned to have an SD/HD-SDI input or two.

Jim Peterson
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