Lumagen RadianceXD - featuring Gennum VXP (!!) - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 3414 Old 09-26-2006, 09:57 AM
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I thought a very simple test is the multiburst pattern ? They are supposed to be black/white/black/white strips. See on your projected (upscaled) screen whether it's still clearly black/white/black/white, and not white/darker white/lighter black/black/etc, and they are still one pixel width. I know the VP30 does not give me perfect strips, whereas the lumagen does.

What was your source, what resolution was your source outputting, and over what type of connection?

Ok, I tried playing some multiburst patterns on 4 DVD player setups:

1. the Toshiba HD-A1 (upconverted, so the scaling takes place in the player) - PASS
2. the Oppo 970 HD (at 480i over HDMI - Crystalio 2 does the scaling) - FAIL
3. the Oppo 971h (upconverted, so the scaling takes place in the player) - PASS
4. the Panasonic RP-82 (at 480i over SDI - Crystalio 2 does the scaling) - PASS

Three of the four players came out clean as a whistle, while the fourth player (the 970HD) was the only player did that not display the higher frequency bursts (above 6.0 mhz) cleanly. Since the scaling was done in the C2 with both the RP-82 and the 970HD, and the RP-82 output was VERY clean, I would have to conclude that the cloudiness I observed from the 970HD was inherent in the player's HDMI output, not the C2, so that test does not seem to me to be a reliable indicator of scaling quality as it can fail the test despite the fact that the multibursts were superb with the RP-82/C2.
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Some scaling algorithms seem to increase or intensify EE. Lumagen's scaling is said to slightly reduce EE.

Thanks, madshi. Maybe my next video processor will be a Lumagen!
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post #92 of 3414 Old 09-26-2006, 10:52 AM
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The purpose of the multiburst pattern is to test whether the display is resolving detail at specified resolutions. The higher the MHz the system cleanly resolves the alternating lines the better able it is to resolve detail at various resolutions.

1080i: 37.1 MHz
720p: 18.5 MHz
480p: 13.5 MHz
480i: 6.75 MHz

So if a particular combination of source, input, and display does not cleanly resolve a multiburst pattern at a specified MHz, then this is an indication that the frequency response is clipped at that resolution and you are losing picture detail.

I only go over this information as a way of agreeing with Bob. How would you know if what seemed like weak scaling wasn't really just a frequency response problem?

A better approach would be to set the scaler to output the display's native rate, set the display to Native, and then look at 1-pixel horizontal and/or vertical lines and see how cleanly the system resolves these.

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post #93 of 3414 Old 09-26-2006, 02:15 PM
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The maximum horizontal resolution of 720p of 1280 pixels across also needs 37 MHz circuit frequency response for a baseband analog video signal.

Video hints:
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/video.htm

Remember when lines and logos burned the TV screen? I was at a concert where a musical selection made extremely heavy use of about four of the keys of the piano.
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post #94 of 3414 Old 09-27-2006, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

What was your source, what resolution was your source outputting, and over what type of connection?

We had tried 2 src, I did HDMI from a pio59 480i, a friend did a SDI from Denon 2900.

Btw when u say "PASS", you really have identical intensity for each black/white strips ? and how thick is each strip (i.e. how many pixels ? I guess this depends on the resolution.) ? How is the transition from black to white ? (we are really just interested in the last band)
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post #95 of 3414 Old 09-27-2006, 09:21 AM
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Btw when u say "PASS", you really have identical intensity for each black/white strips ?

Yup, on all the ones I labeled "PASS". The one labeled "FAIL" varied in intensity.
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and how thick is each strip (i.e. how many pixels ? I guess this depends on the resolution.) ?

I have a 1080p display (Sony Ruby). I have no way of telling for sure, but on the highest frequency bursts the lines appear to be 1 pixel wide. I have also tried the internal 1 pixel wide strip pattern from the C2 and it displays perfectly, so I know that the projector is up to the task...
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How is the transition from black to white ? (we are really just interested in the last band)

Very sharp and very crisp...like I said extremely clean. The only DVD player that was not clean was the 970HD above 6.0 mhz. To be perfectly honest with you, the only reason I tried the 2 upconverting DVD players was because I expected them to fail and wanted to see just how bad it would look, but to my surprise it was the 970HD that failed and the other 3 were extremely clean.

I am now convinced that multiburst patterns have too much interaction with other components in the chain (as Tom mentioned) and are not a good way to judge scaling quality as a single entity.
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post #96 of 3414 Old 09-27-2006, 03:37 PM
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A few points:
1. Lumagen's algorithm definitely reduces mosquito noise. You don't really notice it until you switch to something else that lacks it. It also does not ring. I'm very sensitive to ringing and I have a lot of sharp content (subtitles, letterbox) that normally rings way too much.

2. I can definitely see scaling algorithm differences. Just put on a film mode source and scale it up to native res. The higher the ratio between source and target resolutions, the harder the scaling works and the problems become more pronounced. BTW, I find 768p 42" plasmas and 37" FHD LCDs running at NR to pronounce these issues more than 720p projectors at 100-120". Don't know if it's just me or what.

3. I wont get into the Lumagen vs. DVDO algorithm thing - but I think that Lumagen's algorithm, as implemented in HDQ and HDP Pro does a heck of a job. I've tested various scalers on a variety of displays (most recently the 1080P pioneer) and the difference can be quite astounding when you have a low res source.

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post #97 of 3414 Old 11-30-2006, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=news

The RadianceXG video processor will be available in 2007 Q1 from authorized Lumagen dealers at a suggested price of $3499. Rack-ears for mounting the RadianceXG in a 19 rack are available at a suggested price of $50. Pricing for the external HDMI to analog converter and external SDI to HDMI converter is TBD.

Did the price just go up. I read the new at widescreenreview.com and the price was listed as $3999?

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post #98 of 3414 Old 11-30-2006, 05:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Did the price just go up. I read the new at widescreenreview.com and the price was listed as $3999?

No idea. Lumagen's "news" section on their homepage still lists $3499 as of today.
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post #99 of 3414 Old 11-30-2006, 08:33 AM
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No one told me it's going up.....

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post #100 of 3414 Old 11-30-2006, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser View Post

No one told me it's going up.....

Gordon

Here is a The Lumagen RadianceXG Processor Provides High-Performance Video Switching, Processing And Calibration For The Home Theater And Commercial Markets.

The last paragraph states:

Quote:


The RadianceXG video processor will be available in 2007 Q1 from authorized Lumagen dealers at a suggested price of $3999. Rack-ears for mounting the RadianceXG in a 19 rack are available at a suggested price of $50.

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post #101 of 3414 Old 12-10-2006, 03:42 PM
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A lot of people have been asking us, Lumagen, about an update on Radiance, so I thought I would post one on this thread before doing a press release this week. This info is hot off the presses, as we made the decision this past week.

Many people on this forum have followed the Radiance series since well before we even had a name for it. They will recall that we originally planned on the RadianceXD being the first family member, that it was to cost $5999, and that it would have six HDMI inputs and two HDMI outputs.

Then as the prices fell dramatically on 1080p projectors, we were trying to have 4 HDMI inputs at $4499, then at $3999 (this got into a Widescreen review of the Vision HDQ). We were working on further design refinements that we thought would allow a $3499 price with 5 HDMI inputs, 2 component, 2 SVideo, 1 VGA and 2 composite. This is what we talked about at CEDIA.

Three months have gone by and we have made some additional decisions on the Radiance series. We were not able to come up with enough cost savings to make the $3499 price with five HDMI inputs (or even just four) fly for us. We really wanted this to be the best video processor available, so, after a lot of thought, and even some work on a non-modular design, we have come to the decision to increase the input complement to six HDMI inputs plus add additional analog video inputs, and to list the product at $3999.

In addition, since this product has virtually all the features we originally proposed for the $5999 RadianceXD, we decided it should bear that moniker. We believe the second letter being related to the number of outputs (S=single, D=dual) will keep confusion down some as we add more products to the line.

I believe it's okay for me to now confirm that we are using the new Gennum chip (as opposed to the last generation currently used by others) in the RadianceXD. Originally our NDA prevented us from publicly confirming this. We believe the silicon Gennum already has available for this new chip has all the functionality we need or will use. Since we - unlike pretty much everyone else - use the Gennum only for deinterlacing/inverse-telecine, edge enhancement and noise reduction, and these functions were demonstrated publicly at CEDIA, I hope we can put to rest some unfounded rumors about availability of the Radiance series Beta. If some issue was later uncovered, we - since our system is modular - could replace the Lumagen RadianceXD Beta unit's Video-Processor-Daughter-Card containing the Gennum chip. However, we do not think this will be necessary based on the data we now have.

We are planning on the Beta shipments starting at the end of January with a few key distributors and dealers getting a look at the unit. We will follow with limited Beta through March. We are hopeful that first production will be in April. Of course we have a lot of ground to cover before then, and we might not make this date. However, as with our Vision series, if production release were to be delayed, we would continue the sale of Beta units. Beta units are again to be production hardware with pre-production software. I think our history shows we continue to actively update our software before and after production. So, for us, production release is a softer boundary than for other companies in this business.

RadianceXD Video Inputs (18):
6 HDMI
4 Component
4 SVideo
4 Composite

RadianceXD Audio Inputs (18):
6 HDMI (companion to video on same HDMI connection)
4 Stereo Analog
6 COAX
2 Optical

RadianceXD Outputs:
2 HDMI
2 COAX Audio

Other features are pretty much as described earlier. There will be a press release on our website Monday. We will be demonstrating the Alpha level RadianceXD at CES booth South 21666.

If anyone is interested in being a RadianceXD Beta test site, please email sales@lumagen.com and we will try to accommodate you. As with the Vision series, since Beta units have production hardware, and can be updated to full production with a software update, we do charge the same price for Beta as production. We do require Beta testers to sign a license agreement that these are not (yet) production units, that Beta results are confidential to Lumagen, and to actively provide feedback to Lumagen. We hope this is a win-win since it provides us with much enhanced testing, and provides Beta testers early access to new technology.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
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post #102 of 3414 Old 12-10-2006, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

A lot of people have been asking us, Lumagen, about an update on Radiance, so I thought I would post one on this thread before doing a press release this week. This info is hot off the presses, as we made the decision this past week.

Many people on this forum have followed the Radiance series since well before we even had a name for it. They will recall that we originally planned on the RadianceXD being the first family member, that it was to cost $5999, and that it would have six HDMI inputs and two HDMI outputs.

Then as the prices fell dramatically on 1080p projectors, we were trying to have 4 HDMI inputs at $4499, then at $3999 (this got into a Widescreen review of the Vision HDQ). We were working on further design refinements that we thought would allow a $3499 price with 5 HDMI inputs, 2 component, 2 SVideo, 1 VGA and 2 composite. This is what we talked about at CEDIA.

Three months have gone by and we have made some additional decisions on the Radiance series. We were not able to come up with enough cost savings to make the $3499 price with five HDMI inputs (or even just four) fly for us. We really wanted this to be the best video processor available, so, after a lot of thought, and even some work on a non-modular design, we have come to the decision to increase the input complement to six HDMI inputs plus add additional analog video inputs, and to list the product at $3999.

In addition, since this product has virtually all the features we originally proposed for the $5999 RadianceXD, we decided it should bear that moniker. We believe the second letter being related to the number of outputs (S=single, D=dual) will keep confusion down some as we add more products to the line.

I believe it's okay for me to now confirm that we are using the new Gennum chip (as opposed to the last generation currently used by others) in the RadianceXD. Originally our NDA prevented us from publicly confirming this. We believe the silicon Gennum already has available for this new chip has all the functionality we need or will use. Since we - unlike pretty much everyone else - use the Gennum only for deinterlacing/inverse-telecine, edge enhancement and noise reduction, and these functions were demonstrated publicly at CEDIA, I hope we can put to rest some unfounded rumors about availability of the Radiance series Beta. If some issue was later uncovered, we - since our system is modular - could replace the Lumagen RadianceXD Beta unit's Video-Processor-Daughter-Card containing the Gennum chip. However, we do not think this will be necessary based on the data we now have.

We are planning on the Beta shipments starting at the end of January with a few key distributors and dealers getting a look at the unit. We will follow with limited Beta through March. We are hopeful that first production will be in April. Of course we have a lot of ground to cover before then, and we might not make this date. However, as with our Vision series, if production release were to be delayed, we would continue the sale of Beta units. Beta units are again to be production hardware with pre-production software. I think our history shows we continue to actively update our software before and after production. So, for us, production release is a softer boundary than for other companies in this business.

RadianceXD Video Inputs (18):
6 HDMI
4 Component
4 SVideo
4 Composite

RadianceXD Audio Inputs (18):
6 HDMI (companion to video on same HDMI connection)
4 Stereo Analog
6 COAX
2 Optical

RadianceXD Outputs:
2 HDMI
2 COAX Audio

Other features are pretty much as described earlier. There will be a press release on our website Monday. We will be demonstrating the Alpha level RadianceXD at CES booth South 21666.

If anyone is interested in being a RadianceXD Beta test site, please email sales@lumagen.com and we will try to accommodate you. As with the Vision series, since Beta units have production hardware, and can be updated to full production with a software update, we do charge the same price for Beta as production. We do require Beta testers to sign a license agreement that these are not (yet) production units, that Beta results are confidential to Lumagen, and to actively provide feedback to Lumagen. We hope this is a win-win since it provides us with much enhanced testing, and provides Beta testers early access to new technology.

Jim,

Thanks for the update before the press release. I look forward to the reviews of the Radiance Beta. I'm looking for this type unit for my G-90.

Tim
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post #103 of 3414 Old 12-10-2006, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim McCune View Post

Jim,

Thanks for the update before the press release. I look forward to the reviews of the Radiance Beta. I'm looking for this type unit for my G-90.

Tim

Tim:
You should check out the G90 DVI input (with HDCP) module that I believe is legally available (from what I have heard). This would be an excellent interface to use with the Radiance or one of our Vision series.

Not sure who is sellin gthis though, so you would need to search some.

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post #104 of 3414 Old 12-10-2006, 07:47 PM
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Jim, any plans to come out with a version supporting fewer I/O options, at a lower cost, as with the Vision series?
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post #105 of 3414 Old 12-11-2006, 12:48 AM
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SDI support?

My cinema: The Cave!

My kit: 15' 2.35:1 Screen Research CP2 4-way mask, Sony vw1000es, Lumagen 2144, Meridian 861/621/7x5500/2xSW5500

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post #106 of 3414 Old 12-11-2006, 04:01 AM
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no analogue out?
gamma correction per primary?
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post #107 of 3414 Old 12-11-2006, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

Tim:
You should check out the G90 DVI input (with HDCP) module that I believe is legally available (from what I have heard). This would be an excellent interface to use with the Radiance or one of our Vision series.

Not sure who is sellin gthis though, so you would need to search some.

Jim,

I just missed a run of these; http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4&page=1&pp=30

A few of us are requesting another run.

T
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post #108 of 3414 Old 12-11-2006, 05:50 AM
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I vote for HD-SDI input
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post #109 of 3414 Old 12-11-2006, 11:34 AM
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Jim,

When the Radience was announced, an external DAC was promised for us CRT owners. Your advice to the G90 owner above has me concerned that you have shelved plans for this. Can you reassure me?

Martin
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post #110 of 3414 Old 12-11-2006, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Siener View Post

Jim, any plans to come out with a version supporting fewer I/O options, at a lower cost, as with the Vision series?

It is our intension to do a lower priced unit with fewer IO, but we are not ready to discuss any details.

Jim Peterson
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post #111 of 3414 Old 12-11-2006, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post

SDI support?

We plan an SD-SDI external module.

We are not planning to do an HD-SDI box at this time. I believe there are one or two of these being produced already, and given that we believe the market for these is very small, we would suggest people who need HD-SDI look at one of these. Of course, if we see a lot of demand for this we could change our minds.

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post #112 of 3414 Old 12-11-2006, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesthegas View Post

Jim,

When the Radience was announced, an external DAC was promised for us CRT owners. Your advice to the G90 owner above has me concerned that you have shelved plans for this. Can you reassure me?

Martin

We still plan to do an external DAC. It will probably not be available until we get to production status.

PLEASE NOTE: HDCP inputs will not be able to be output on analog from this external DAC. This is an HDCP legal issue, rather than a technical one. We are restricted from doing this by our license agreement for HDCP.

Jim Peterson
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post #113 of 3414 Old 12-11-2006, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRT_Nooob View Post

no analogue out?
gamma correction per primary?

Analog out is an external option (see my last post).

You can do gamma per primary already in the Vision series using the parametric grayscale/gamma menu. Of course this affects the grayscale, since the two are closely tied.

I don't personally think of this as gamma-per-primary. Instead I do an overall gamma, then calibrate grayscale at all the points and finally I iterate these calibrations if needed.

If you are asking if we have a single gamma control "knob" per color like a PC, we are considering this. This would allow a rough approximation of accurate grayscale and gamma before switching to our 11-point mode.

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post #114 of 3414 Old 12-11-2006, 12:58 PM
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Hi Jim, will there be "Primary color correction", as advertised in the XG press release? I interpreted that to mean adjustment of a display's primaries in the CIE diagram.

Thanks.

"Worth waiting for"
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post #115 of 3414 Old 12-11-2006, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VirusKiller View Post

Hi Jim, will there be "Primary color correction", as advertised in the XG press release? I interpreted that to mean adjustment of a display's primaries in the CIE diagram.

Thanks.

This is also a feature I am very interested in.

Mark

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post #116 of 3414 Old 12-12-2006, 04:37 AM
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Jim,

First of all - congratulations!!!

This looks like an excellent product and I am confident that you will meet your usual high standards.

Few questions:
1. Will the analog inputs continue to be configurable BNC based as in previous models?
2. Will you continue to support RGBS through component + composite input?

Thanks!!!

Cheers,
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post #117 of 3414 Old 12-12-2006, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oferlaor View Post

2. Will you continue to support RGBS through component + composite input?

I think that's why there are 4 composite inputs (to go with the 4 component inputs). Can't think of any other reason why anyone would want 4 composites!

"Worth waiting for"
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post #118 of 3414 Old 12-12-2006, 05:31 AM
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JRP. Thanks for a very informative series of posts. I like the naming decision. A great way to get the moniker off your back.

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post #119 of 3414 Old 12-13-2006, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VirusKiller View Post

Hi Jim, will there be "Primary color correction", as advertised in the XG press release? I interpreted that to mean adjustment of a display's primaries in the CIE diagram.

Yes, we plan on having primary correction. This may not be until after production release, but we will get it in as soon as we can.

Please note that primaries can only be corrected to the extent they are outside the primary color triangle. In other words if the display/projector has a color space that is larger than the standard, it can be corrected. If it is smaller than the standard, it can not be corrected.

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post #120 of 3414 Old 12-13-2006, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oferlaor View Post

Jim,

First of all - congratulations!!!

This looks like an excellent product and I am confident that you will meet your usual high standards.

Few questions:
1. Will the analog inputs continue to be configurable BNC based as in previous models?
2. Will you continue to support RGBS through component + composite input?

Thanks!!!

Thanks Ofer.

The analog inputs will be RCA and SVideo standard connections. This was a tough decision, but I think most people prefer the standard connections over BNC's at this point, so we decided to go with them. It also allowed us to have as many inputs as we do since they are smaller.

Inputs are going to continue to be configurable. We group YPbPr and composite again so it is a little cleaner to have RGBcvS inputs. All four of the component inputs will be capable of RGBcvS when combined with the respective composite input.

We will allow a single RGBHV input using one of the component and two of the composite inputs. That would leave the ability to, in addition, have two component and one RGBcvS (or one component and two RGBcvS).

While most people do not need four component, composite or SVideo inputs, we do get requests for that many, and so decided that to meet our "Best of Breed" product goal we thought it appropriate to go a little wild on the total number of inputs. We don't expect many people to use all 18 video inputs of course.

Jim Peterson
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