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post #91 of 892 Old 11-14-2006, 02:12 AM
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[quote=bird_oa]All,
I own a VP50. I'm feeding the VP50 with sat signals via a Humax box. The box has 3 res. 1080i, 720p, 576p (all via HDMI or COMP) if I'm using the lowest for non HDTV channels so 576p for 576i signals the signal to my 1080p pio (5000EX) is not so good. This is because the VP50 can not (yet) do a prep from the p signals.

If I switch to 1080i the signal becames better. Although not to bad I hardly notice any difference with or without the VP50.

DVD PQ is OK but again without the VP50 not much (hardley no) difference. Same for gameplay via PS and XBOX. Res out from VP50 always on 1080P BTW (screen set to Dot by Dot) everything connected via HDMI or COMP.

Could the CII do a better job for the signals ?
Perhaps i can switch from the VP50 to the CII.
Hope for some helpfull comments on this.[/QUOT
Are you saying that you cannot get a 576i signal from you humax using component? If you are only able to feed 576p to the vp50 you are getting very little benifit from the iscan. I am interested because I too have a 5000ex and was thinking of buying the vp50 but after reading your comments,I dont think that I will bother.Sounds like the Dragonfly or Crystalio would be best.
One final point,perhaps the 5000ex picture qaulity is so good that it does not need a vp at all.The picture that I get using sky sd with component thus sending 576i to the plasma is superb.I think that a demo of a vp before buying would be the safest bet.
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post #92 of 892 Old 11-14-2006, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tryingtimes View Post

It doesn't have that DVDO feature if that's what you mean - i.e. the ability to pull apart a badly deinterlaced image.
But it can accept properly progressive inputs (e.g. 1080p, 1080sf24, etc) over the HDMI inputs.
It can also accept progressive PC inputs over DVI-HDMI too - which is useful.
This is something that the last generation of VPs couldn't do.

Thanks for all your response. As suggested by the manual i'm feeding the VP50 now with a 576i res. to let the VP do all the work. I've connected the VP50 now with a composite, not the best cable BTW but anyhow to pass trhrough 576i PAL Sat TV. The results are worse compared to the feed of 1080i (for 576i material) via HDMI. I'm a bit lost in VP-space.
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post #93 of 892 Old 11-14-2006, 12:26 PM
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[/quote]
Are you saying that you cannot get a 576i signal from you humax using component? If you are only able to feed 576p to the vp50 you are getting very little benifit from the iscan. I am interested because I too have a 5000ex and was thinking of buying the vp50 but after reading your comments,I dont think that I will bother.Sounds like the Dragonfly or Crystalio would be best.
One final point,perhaps the 5000ex picture qaulity is so good that it does not need a vp at all.The picture that I get using sky sd with component thus sending 576i to the plasma is superb.I think that a demo of a vp before buying would be the safest bet.[/quote]

Hi thanks for your response. Indeed the PQ is fantastic specially from BBC HDTV material. But you always want the best (at least i do) The VP doesn't bring me that up till now despite all the changes in settings etc. (and not to forget the 3000 EUR investment) I agree with you on the demo part If I where you try the CII to conclude if you see differences.
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post #94 of 892 Old 11-14-2006, 01:40 PM
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Once the prep feature is enabled (seems like any day now) then you might be able to go back to using the 576p over HDMI option with good results.
Or wait for their EDID edit feature which might force 576i out of HDMI.

Otherwise try and get the best i signal you can - you mention Composite which would be awful, but hopefully you can get Component.
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post #95 of 892 Old 11-14-2006, 03:35 PM
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Are you saying that you cannot get a 576i signal from you humax using component? If you are only able to feed 576p to the vp50 you are getting very little benifit from the iscan. I am interested because I too have a 5000ex and was thinking of buying the vp50 but after reading your comments,I dont think that I will bother.Sounds like the Dragonfly or Crystalio would be best.
One final point,perhaps the 5000ex picture qaulity is so good that it does not need a vp at all.The picture that I get using sky sd with component thus sending 576i to the plasma is superb.I think that a demo of a vp before buying would be the safest bet.[/quote]

Hi thanks for your response. Indeed the PQ is fantastic specially from BBC HDTV material. But you always want the best (at least i do) The VP doesn't bring me that up till now despite all the changes in settings etc. (and not to forget the 3000 EUR investment) I agree with you on the demo part If I where you try the CII to conclude if you see differences.[/quote]
I have tried the Vantage and found no benifit with,I do have a home demo due with the mosquito/Dragonfly in the next week or so,will see if they improve.
You did not mention if you could get 576i with component and if you had used it with the vp50.
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post #96 of 892 Old 11-15-2006, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Just seen the best picture ever. I had King Kong HD DVD going thru the CII then to my ruby. Wow!

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post #97 of 892 Old 11-15-2006, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alwynwilliams View Post

Are you saying that you cannot get a 576i signal from you humax using component? If you are only able to feed 576p to the vp50 you are .

I have tried the Vantage and found no benifit with,I do have a home demo due with the mosquito/Dragonfly in the next week or so,will see if they improve.
You did not mention if you could get 576i with component and if you had used it with the vp50.[/quote]

No I cannot control 576i on component unfortunattely. I have to use composite or Scart but scart can not be send to de VP otherwise I would have tried it. I have to wait for the PreP I prosume.
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post #98 of 892 Old 11-15-2006, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bird_oa View Post

No I cannot control 576i on component unfortunattely. I have to use composite or Scart but scart can not be send to de VP otherwise I would have tried it. I have to wait for the PreP I prosume.

Have you tried using a SCART to RGBs cable? This allows you to have the 3 component colours out, Red, Green and Blue in RGB colour space and uses the Video (composite) line as the Sync line. If you can't get a SCART to RGBs cable, just use an SCART to RGB/Component cable and use a separate cable out of the Video outlet of the STB to the Sync input on the VP. From memory, the CII (and the VP50) have 5 or 4 inputs on their Component/RGBHV input connectors that allow you to connect the RGB and Sync signals in.

Phil.
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post #99 of 892 Old 11-15-2006, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by escon View Post

Have you tried using a SCART to RGBs cable? This allows you to have the 3 component colours out, Red, Green and Blue in RGB colour space and uses the Video (composite) line as the Sync line. If you can't get a SCART to RGBs cable, just use an SCART to RGB/Component cable and use a separate cable out of the Video outlet of the STB to the Sync input on the VP. From memory, the CII (and the VP50) have 5 or 4 inputs on their Component/RGBHV input connectors that allow you to connect the RGB and Sync signals in.

Thanks for your advice I'll try this and let you know the results!
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post #100 of 892 Old 11-16-2006, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Just seen the best picture ever. I had King Kong HD DVD going thru the CII then to my ruby. Wow!

Are you running HDMI audio from your HD DVD player through the CII? If so, what receiver are you using?

EDIT: Praise for a product is just as welcome as complaints for those of us doing prepurchase product research, but I just want to understand if your high praise for the product is based on a subset of the features.

 

 

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post #101 of 892 Old 11-17-2006, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I have done testing on audio thru the HDMI as well. And I have never had any audio drop outs. I understand complaining about a product is just as important as complimenting it. I have had the least complaints with the crystalio II... It has the best picture, the best userface, best remote, and is the best looking VP available...

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post #102 of 892 Old 11-18-2006, 02:46 AM
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I am curious to see how the CII compares in this weekends shoot out.
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post #103 of 892 Old 11-18-2006, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
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It will be interesting but I would find it more interesting if they were using HDMI ins and outs. Last I read they were comparing them all thru analog. Not the ideal way to compare these days... Oh well, maybe next shootout...

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post #104 of 892 Old 11-19-2006, 05:29 AM
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Maybe somebody will show up with a digital projector.

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post #105 of 892 Old 11-19-2006, 05:32 AM - Thread Starter
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If they were closer to me I would be more than happy to drive one over to them.

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post #106 of 892 Old 11-19-2006, 05:50 AM
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joe,

Curiosity is a powerful force.

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post #107 of 892 Old 11-19-2006, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Actually Jim I don't have any curiosity anymore. I had all of the latest and greatest VPs they are testing and I know which is the best. After a 3 week stint with each one (a couple much longer) curiosity killed the cat (or in this case the other VPs)...

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post #108 of 892 Old 11-19-2006, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Actually Jim I don't have any curiosity anymore. I had all of the latest and greatest VPs they are testing and I know which is the best. After a 3 week stint with each one (a couple much longer) curiosity killed the cat (or in this case the other VPs)...

drumroll - and the winner is ???

(dumb question in a C2 thread)

Michael

if they could only get 72 Hz (24Hz) to work properly
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post #109 of 892 Old 11-19-2006, 01:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I agree. It will be fun doing either 72hz, 48hz or 24... Hopefully late this month we will have it...

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post #110 of 892 Old 11-22-2006, 07:48 AM
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Hi with 2 post I'm very new here. I'm planing to buy a VP and so all this discussions are very interesting and useful for me. Currently I'm split between the Vantage and the Crystalio2. Reading here I would go and buy the C2 immediately, but then there was a weekend "research" done by very experienced users which gives me some doubts.

(OK, here I wanted for respect put the URL of the other thread, but the system refused to allow it to me, sorry)

In number 123 madshi wrote:
The new VXP chip which will be used in the Radiance adds SD and HD compression noise reduction as well as improved random noise reduction algorithms. None of these algorithms will ever work on the older chip used in the Crystalio II.

In short: The Crystalio II in its current form will never be able to do compression noise reduction nor Anime cadence detection and there's nothing PixelMagic can do about that
(end of quote)

I think this doesn't sound so good.

Then I was also wondering that 3 extremely experienced persons couldn't make the Crystalio 2 get to work correctly (it showed too dark). They called it a lake of proper experience with this unit. Well so how much experience does somebody need to be able to use that unit if they could not?

I don't want to be polemic, I'm just confused how to compare this entusiastic thread here with the more skeptical one on the other side. I mean we don't talk about religion or taste, or do we?
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post #111 of 892 Old 11-22-2006, 08:16 AM
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We simply don't know what the cause of the incorrect blacks were. Maybe they'll get to the bottom of it, but it's not something I personally would worry about. It's not something I've heard anything about on other forums.

Setup of CII was a doddle - it took about 10 mins and there wasn't a lot else to do! I spent another 5 mins setting up dynamic VP and another 10 testing DCDi Versus VXP and that was it! There's a few things to play with too - the media player, NR, etc - but that's just fun

Re the algorithms - it's true about the anime cadence and newer NR stuff. DVDO is supposed to do better with Anime but doesn't currently have NR or Detail Enhancement.
Radiance may do good anime and also incorporate the newer NR/DE algs but we don't know for sure when yet.

I know what you mean about the religion thing - certainly these VP companies do seem to attract fans and detractors - I think it's because they are really complicated devices and you kind of build up a relationship with the device and the company. The dealers have helped a lot with this too - Lumagen first and then Pixel Magic really did change the market by having knowledgable dealers who are interested about absolute performance over everything else. I see this less with DVDO and I don't see it at all with Calibre.
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post #112 of 892 Old 11-22-2006, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanottt View Post

Hi with 2 post I'm very new here. I'm planing to buy a VP and so all this discussions are very interesting and useful for me. Currently I'm split between the Vantage and the Crystalio2. Reading here I would go and buy the C2 immediately, but then there was a weekend "research" done by very experienced users which gives me some doubts.

(OK, here I wanted for respect put the URL of the other thread, but the system refused to allow it to me, sorry)

In number 123 madshi wrote:
The new VXP chip which will be used in the Radiance adds SD and HD compression noise reduction as well as improved random noise reduction algorithms. None of these algorithms will ever work on the older chip used in the Crystalio II.

In short: The Crystalio II in its current form will never be able to do compression noise reduction nor Anime cadence detection and there's nothing PixelMagic can do about that
(end of quote)

I think this doesn't sound so good.

Then I was also wondering that 3 extremely experienced persons couldn't make the Crystalio 2 get to work correctly (it showed too dark). They called it a lake of proper experience with this unit. Well so how much experience does somebody need to be able to use that unit if they could not?

I don't want to be polemic, I'm just confused how to compare this entusiastic thread here with the more skeptical one on the other side. I mean we don't talk about religion or taste, or do we?

I've had the C 3800 since it first was released a few months ago and I can say that it's pretty easy to use. I'm not sure what the reference is to it "showing too dark." The comments that Madshi made are, I am sure, accurate since Madshi is a very knowledgable person. They relate to nosie reduction which, if you are really serious (and have the extra cash), you can do better with a Mosquito anyway--which is what I do. I don't think the noise reduction issue calls into question the quality of the CII. And of course, there is always going to be another and better version of the chip/processor coming out in the the next generation. I'm not saying anything against the Radiance. If I were in the market now I would seriously consider any VP that has a newer gennum chip but I'm also not saying that I would choose the one with the newer chip just because it is newer. That's a different question.

The only tricky part of dealing with the CII can be, but is not always, getting it 1:1 mapped with your monitor but that largely depends on the monitor and has nothing to do with the CII. In fact, you will have the same issue with any VP on some monitors. You need to get 1:1 mapping so that you bypass the internal processor of your monitor. Otherwise you defeat the purpose of having an external VP. I happen to have the new 65 inch 1080p panasonic plasma which has a 1:1 pixel map mode and that makes it simple to get 1:1 mapping. I also did not have a large problem getting the mapping with my panny 508uk plasma although I did have to fiddle with the timings a bit.

What has been said here about the media player in the 3800 is correct. It is still not past the beta stage in my view. I recently downloaded the latest firmware which is suposed to have full MP functionality but I have not been able to get the MP to work yet becuase there is not a decent set of instructions out yet. In any case, I'm sure I could have got it up and running if I were willing to fiddle around with it but I've got too many other things going on now so I'm waiting for PMS to put out the MP manual which they say should be ready in a few weeks.

Other than that I am totally pleased with my purchase. The processing results in great PQ and the OSD is really well-designed and well-presented. The CII manual is also quite good.

Based on my experience with this unit I recommend the CII without hesitation.
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post #113 of 892 Old 11-22-2006, 08:46 AM
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I think I may get one. Is it worth it to get the Pro version? I am not sure what the HDSDI inputs would be used for, and does the precision clock make that much difference?

I don't currently have use for the media player, and I am thinking that having the internal hard drive just adds something to go wrong.

On the other hand, I do like to get the very best, but I am just not sure if I want to pay an extra grand for the pro.

Edit: OK nevermind, I just ordered the Pro.

Phil
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post #114 of 892 Old 11-22-2006, 08:48 AM
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Hi Jack,

Just thought I'd add some thoughts.

Not achieving 1:1 pixel mapping doesn't actually defeat the purpose of having an external video processor. They do more than just scale you know....and in some cases you don't want to pixel map.

Also I am unsure how you can claim that a Mosquito does superior noise reduction to that in a chipset that has not yet been seen implimented anywhere......

Gordon

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post #115 of 892 Old 11-22-2006, 09:16 AM
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Thank you tryingtimes and Jack D for your "down-to-earth" comments; its a good feeling to read something so clean without weapons ready to shoot.

Nevertheless I go spying also in the other thread, and again Madshi wrote there that the present HDMI version limits the data transmission to 8bit and it will not be possible to updtae it on the C2. Do you feel this as limit?

(Sorry as newcomer for me it is still not alowed to post here the URL)

In my other life I run also a software company which deals with 3D building simulation, and to be honest if we would limit the colors to 8 bit we would have difficulties to sell.

Maybe this question is exagerated and not the right place here to put, but who knows?
Thanks anyway
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post #116 of 892 Old 11-22-2006, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser View Post

Hi Jack,

Just thought I'd add some thoughts.

Not achieving 1:1 pixel mapping doesn't actually defeat the purpose of having an external video processor. They do more than just scale you know....and in some cases you don't want to pixel map.

Also I am unsure how you can claim that a Mosquito does superior noise reduction to that in a chipset that has not yet been seen implimented anywhere......

Gordon


Gordon,

OK, fair enough about the claim that the Mosquito would do better than something we haven't seen. I retract my statement. I still don't think, however, I would base my decision about a VP on how good it did at noise reduction.

Re the 1:1: it's pretty important for PQ but I suppose I did overstate a bit.
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post #117 of 892 Old 11-22-2006, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanottt View Post

Thank you tryingtimes and Jack D for your "down-to-earth" comments; its a good feeling to read something so clean without weapons ready to shoot.

Nevertheless I go spying also in the other thread, and again Madshi wrote there that the present HDMI version limits the data transmission to 8bit and it will not be possible to updtae it on the C2. Do you feel this as limit?

(Sorry as newcomer for me it is still not alowed to post here the URL)

In my other life I run also a software company which deals with 3D building simulation, and to be honest if we would limit the colors to 8 bit we would have difficulties to sell.

Maybe this question is exagerated and not the right place here to put, but who knows?
Thanks anyway

Not sure the context of what Madshi said but, in general, he usually knows what he is talking about. I don't know if I feel that the 8bit thing is a limit. I suppose it is on the face of it but until I see something that uses higher bit rate and a VP that can process it, I guess I won't know how deprived I am. I'm sure there are going to be better pieces of equipment down the line (not just VPs but monitors as well). Just a matter of when, I suppose.
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post #118 of 892 Old 11-22-2006, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Free View Post

I think I may get one. Is it worth it to get the Pro version? I am not sure what the HDSDI inputs would be used for, and does the precision clock make that much difference?

I don't currently have use for the media player, and I am thinking that having the internal hard drive just adds something to go wrong.

On the other hand, I do like to get the very best, but I am just not sure if I want to pay an extra grand for the pro.

Honestly, I'm not sure I would get the pro version if I had to do it now. I think it might pay off down the line a bit. The HDSDI could payoff if HDSDI mods on STBs and BR/HD DVD players become more available. I can't really say much about the media player until I get mine working. I can imagine that it could be very cool being able to link the CII to your network and play videos that you downloaded from your computer on your home theater set up with CII processing. For the moment, however, what I'm doing with the CII pro I could do with the 3300.
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post #119 of 892 Old 11-22-2006, 10:14 AM
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Well HDMI 1.3 may well bring improvements. But there is no receiving device available right now that has that capability - so we just can't tell.
If Pixel Magic wanted to put HDMI 1.3 in there today - they probably couldn't due to lack of supply + it would take quite a bit of time to come to market and iron out all the bugs, etc.

Last I heard even the Lumagen which is due in a few months time wasn't going to make it with HDMI 1.3 at launch although they have stated there will be an upgrade path.

Before it will make much of a difference, we will also need display devices with HDMI 1.3 too, and again - these have no firm dates + supporting HDMI1.3 doesn't necessarily mean it will have all the potential improvements.

At the end of the day - if you want to buy a VP today you have to choose between the HDP/HDQ, VP50, Crystalio II and Vantage HD. It's a great choice to have!

Madshi's comments are always very well observed. 8bit is the current input limit of all the current display devices, so it's not really something that I would worry about for now. Even Madshi has decided not to wait for all these new features indefinitely and took up DVDO on their upgrade offer for the VP50 I think (Madshi please forgive me and correct me if I'm wrong).

There will always be something just around the corner. If you can wait, then great - personally I'm sticking with my 768p crt projector until digitals beat it in EVERY area - I feel comfortable in my decision - and ultimately you have be comfortable with yours.


Regarding the 3800 model - tough call - I'm not sure that I'll be going with HD-SDI unless it becomes more available and to be completely honest, the HD Mediabox looks 90% as good via HDMI and currently supports more formats - but it's a little less automated (resolution detection). However I will ditch it as soon as the internal one adds .avi support.
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post #120 of 892 Old 11-22-2006, 11:11 AM
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Gordon or anybody else,

Why wouldn't you want 1:1 pixel matching?

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