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post #181 of 892 Old 11-24-2006, 10:18 AM
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But let me abuse your patients

I hope you're not a doctor.
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post #182 of 892 Old 11-24-2006, 11:09 AM
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I hope you're not a doctor.

ahh, for a language mistake now my big secret came to surface
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post #183 of 892 Old 11-24-2006, 11:48 AM
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post #184 of 892 Old 11-24-2006, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

If you directly connect the source to the display, there's no problem, because the 8 bit from the source are directly passed on to the display. The display can then internally bump up bit depth and do its internal calculations in a higher bit depth to avoid rounding/clipoff errors.

However, if there's a video processor in the middle, things are bit different. A good video processor internally calculates in at least 10 bit throughout the whole processing chain. The VP does a lot of things. Deinterlacing, scaling, maybe gamma correction etc. If it did all this in 8 bit only, you'd run into rounding/cutoff errors, so it's usually doing it in 10 bit or higher. So when the VP is finally ready to output the final image, it has a 10 bit image but can only output it in 8 bit when using RGB over HDMI. Now a lot depends on how good the VP converts the 10 bit image down to 8 bit. If it does it cleverly, you might not be able to see any noticable image artifacts. But converting down to 8 bit is really not optimal. It *can* result in banding. Because of that I'll welcome HDMI 1.3, because with DeepColor the VP can pass the final image to the display in its full bit depth. Of course that works only, if both the display and the VP support DeepColor and if nobody in its internal calculation routines ever goes back to 8 bit.


DVI is identical to HDMI 1.1 in that it also only supports 8 bit when outputting RGB.

Component is analog and thus not limited to a specific bit count by nature, so it has the potential to be "better". It depends on the VP and the display. The VP most probably uses the full 10 bit (or higher) internal precision to render the component output. It's up to the display to interpret this analog input then. Most of today's display are digital. So component input must be converted to digital by the display again. If the display does that in 8 bit only, component should not be any better than HDMI, but worse instead. But if the display digitizes the component input in 10 bit or higher, the final image may look somewhat better than HDMI. It might be a bit less sharp, cause digital -> analog -> digital is usually not lossless, but there should be no banding.

madshi,

You are assuming in the example above that if someone is using a video processor that they have turned off ALL internal processing in the display right?

For example, I have a 1080p LCD that accepts a 1080p signal and have been looking at video processors to de-interlace, scale and remove digital compression artifacts like mosquito noise and block artifacts. Currently my display overscans, but there is supposedly a firmware update that will make overscan go to zero.

Most people on these forums say that you should turn off all processing in the display, but if the 8-bit limiation you mention above is true, then it sounds like those of us with displays that have 10-bit processing would not want to turn off the internal processing of our displays.

If I can get the overscan on my LCD to 0%, then I could connect my sources to a product like the Flea/Mosquito to remove digital artifacts, which would then connect to a video processor like the dragonfly/crystalio/vp50 to de-interlace and scale and pass a 1080p signal to my display. Since the native rate of the display is 1080p and overscan is 0%, then the only thing the display's internal processor would do is process the colors in 10-bit.

Am I missing something or does that sound correct?

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post #185 of 892 Old 11-25-2006, 03:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfogarty5 View Post

You are assuming in the example above that if someone is using a video processor that they have turned off ALL internal processing in the display right?

For example, I have a 1080p LCD that accepts a 1080p signal and have been looking at video processors to de-interlace, scale and remove digital compression artifacts like mosquito noise and block artifacts. Currently my display overscans, but there is supposedly a firmware update that will make overscan go to zero.

Most people on these forums say that you should turn off all processing in the display, but if the 8-bit limiation you mention above is true, then it sounds like those of us with displays that have 10-bit processing would not want to turn off the internal processing of our displays.

You cannot turn "the internal processing of the display" off, because otherwise you wouldn't see anything but a black screen. You can just turn off *additional* video processing algorithms like scaling, sharpening, noise reduction etc.

"Turning all processing off" usually means:

(1) avoid rescaling in the display (0% overscan, 1:1 pixel mapping)
(2) turn noise reduction, detail enhancement, sharpening etc off
(3) turn color correction, contrast expansion etc off

All this shouldn't impact in which bit depth the display works internally. E.g. if you check out all the plasma specs, most plasmas claim to be able to show xxx million color shades. So most plasmas internally work with more than 8 bit. There's no way to turn that off and also no reason to.
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post #186 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 08:10 AM
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Am contemplating buying a Crystalio ll and am curious if anyone has sent a 1080p DVD signal into a Crystalio ll and then into a 1080p display and if there were any obvious benefits.
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post #187 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 08:15 AM
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What's the actual source of your 1080p signal - was it 1080p on disk - or only after some processing in the source device? Is it video or film-based?
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post #188 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 08:59 AM
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Trying Times

It's a Meridian DVD player processing a non-1080p disc.
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post #189 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 09:24 AM
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hmmm - well I would definitely try and send a signal at it's 'on-disk' rate to CII wherever possible.

However if it's not possible, you will still benefit from source-switching, gamma correction, colour controls, pixel mapping to your display if applicable, automation of 50/60hz switching, etc, etc.

If it was your only or primary source, I would question the value though. Better still, I would sell your DVD player and replace it with one of the best sounding SDI players (Audio quality is often the hardest things to find in a good SDI player). You might even have some change left over.

On another note - has anyone tested the audio quality of the internal CII Media Player versus a well regarded standalone?
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post #190 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 09:49 AM
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My 3800 just arrived. I ordered from AVS last Wednesday, it shipped from Hong Kong on Thanksgiving day, and it just arrived this morning.

AMAZING!!

Phil
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post #191 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 09:59 AM
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On the one hand the Meridian is my best source, both visually and sonically (there are few better, in fact) but not the source I watch most frequently. I'm definitely going to buy a Cll and will A-B the input and tell you my results.
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post #192 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Free View Post

My 3800 just arrived. I ordered from AVS last Wednesday, it shipped from Hong Kong on Thanksgiving day, and it just arrived this morning.

AMAZING!!

Welcome to the club Phil
Are you going to be able to play with it tonight?
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post #193 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by tryingtimes View Post

Welcome to the club Phil
Are you going to be able to play with it tonight?

I am working on hooking it up right now. Just programmed the main remote into my MX850, and am heading down to the theater to swap out my VP50.

Phil
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post #194 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 10:47 AM
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Someone on this thread made the comment that this can be an expensive site to vist and I can heartily attest to that. I discovered this site a little over 5 years ago when we were remodelling our house and I realized I had a spare room for a dedicated theatre and promptly bought the Sharp 9000 which had just come out, a Stewart screen, and a Faroudja NRS. More recently, having not looked in for a while, I read about the just released Ruby and bought it. Now after a 6 month break, in spite of being perfectly happy with my setup, I suddenly read about the Cll and, of course, decide I must have it.

Not that I'm complaining, mind you.
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post #195 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mndavenport View Post

Someone on this thread made the comment that this can be an expensive site to vist and I can heartily attest to that. I discovered this site a little over 5 years ago when we were remodelling our house and I realized I had a spare room for a dedicated theatre and promptly bought the Sharp 9000 which had just come out, a Stewart screen, and a Faroudja NRS. More recently, having not looked in for a while, I read about the just released Ruby and bought it. Now after a 6 month break, in spite of being perfectly happy with my setup, I suddenly read about the Cll and, of course, decide I must have it.

Not that I'm complaining, mind you.

Maybe you should think about the Panny 103 inch 1080p monitor!
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post #196 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 11:09 AM
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And replace the Ruby and a Stewart 100" Firehawk? I don't think so.
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post #197 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 11:14 AM
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And replace the Ruby and a Stewart 100" Firehawk? I don't think so.

just trying to help you spend money.
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post #198 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 11:16 AM
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Ohhhh. But I still need to rationalize it in some way and that kind of a move defies my rationalizing abilities.
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post #199 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 12:09 PM
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Would someone help me configure my discrete inputs. The first three number keys, correspond to the first 3 HDMI inputs, but it all falls apart from there. Number 4 on the remote selects the Media Center, and locks out any more discrete input switching until I enter the input menu, and navigate out of the media center.

Then, I am unable to select Component 1 or Video 1 directly, and remaining number buttons are discrete activation of aspect ratio etc.

Is there a way to configure the discrete inputs so that I don't have to go into the 3800's menu each time I change inputs?

Phil
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post #200 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 01:27 PM
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Nobody knows how to make discrete input selections on the Crystallio?

I find it hard to believe that something this complex would not have a way to select each of the inputs, via discrete command.

Phil
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post #201 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 01:37 PM
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Actually I always use the mini menu Now that I've hidden all my inputs except 4, it's pretty easy. So I don't know exactly what can be done.
But as no one else has chimed in - here's some thoughts.

Does this still happen if you go to input>hide input and leave only a few options.

Also - you could create macros - macro+4 could equal select input as Component1, macro+5 = Video 1 etc.
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post #202 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 02:00 PM
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So, let me see if I understand.... you have to perform multiple button presses to change inputs on the Crystallio? There is no dedicated button for each input? That seems pretty brain dead to me.

Even if I hide the unused inputs, the input buttons still correspond to the same sequence, so that doesn't work. What is more, button 4 always throws you into Media Center Hell, that requires you to go into the menu to get out again. In fact, if you end up in SDI 1 or 2, you have to access the drop down menu to change the input.

It is even more frustrating, that I tried to create a macro in my URC MX850 that would go something like this. Input + 6 which should select Component 1, but it throws me into SDI 2, which isn't even in position 6. All I want is to be able to press one button to select Component one!!

I can't believe how cumbersome this thing is, if it can't even switch directly to a desired input, that is some really bad user interface.

Phil
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post #203 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Free View Post

Nobody knows how to make discrete input selections on the Crystallio?

I find it hard to believe that something this complex would not have a way to select each of the inputs, via discrete command.

I just use the pop up menu which only has four options since I've hidden everything else. As Tryingtimes noted, however, I suppose you can use the macro buttons but just make sure you are using v 1.24 of the firmware because I think the macro capability was disabled before that.

Other than that you should go over to the PMS forum. If there is another way to do it I'm sure they will let you know over there.

BTW: do you really need to access all the inputs?
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post #204 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 02:30 PM
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No, I don't need to access all the inputs, but I was under the impression that this was a better user interface than the VP50. It certainly seems to be much more cumbersome, and lacking the simple basic ability to directly select an input, without scrolling through menu's is simply unbelievable. I am sure there must be some hidden code or something, because to leave this out just boggles my mind.

Phil
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post #205 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 02:59 PM
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OK, I think I figured it out (Thanks to Alan). The Macro functions are not in the owners manual, but it looks like each button can be configured from there.

Phil
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post #206 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Free View Post

OK, I think I figured it out (Thanks to Alan). The Macro functions are not in the owners manual, but it looks like each button can be configured from there.

Doesn't surprise me that there was no reference to the macro functions in the manual as they added this in subsequent firmware upgrades.
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post #207 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Don't tell me for one second the user interface is not nicer than DVDOs... No way!

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post #208 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 05:23 PM
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I need to spend more time with it before I make my decision. So far, I am not too happy with all the unecessary crap that comes up on the screen when switching inputs. It also seems to have a harder time locking onto signals than the VP50, and I thought the VP50 was bad.

So far, Picture Quality looks stellar though.

Phil
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post #209 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Give it a little more time. Once you get it tweaked enough you really never need to go into the menu that much. Also, just hit the select button at anytime to find out what it is doing! I love having that power... Very cool...

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post #210 of 892 Old 11-27-2006, 07:46 PM
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Well... after spending more time with it tonight, I will say that the picture is, at least, as nice as the VP50, if not a hair better. There seems to be a feeling of richness to the image that was not as noticeable before.

As for the useability, I don't find the menu system that much better, in fact, the VP50 menu was easier to navigate, and way less intrusive. I thought the VP50 was having handshake issues, but the C2 takes the prize for being a pain in the ass, when it comes to locking on to a signal. It makes switching inputs (which I do a lot) a real mess.

I am hoping that the next firmware drop solves the handshake issues.

Phil
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