Denon Video Processor - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 953 Old 04-28-2009, 12:13 PM
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Thanks bluechunks.

I'm aware it's best to send the native signal but as you pointed out I can't do that (from DVD) with my BD35. I think I tried sending 1080i at one point.

Anyway, the problem seems to me that, regardless of what signal was being sent from my Blu Ray player, the Denon VP must have been doing something to the signal, since I could see changes when I played with the Denon's contrast control, but strangely, nothing when I played with the DNR/Sharpness/Enhancer controls.
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post #182 of 953 Old 04-28-2009, 02:03 PM
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That would describe the behavior if the Panny was sending 1080p. Those controls (hue, brightness, contrast, color) still work but not the DNR and edge enhancement, etc. Any chance that's the problem?

By comparison, I have the Denon AVP pre-pro with Realta T2 and an Oppo BDP-83. If I send a 480i signal from the Oppo to the Denon it outputs an awesome 1080p picture (ok, as awesome as SD can be) and those controls actually work (same for 480p). So something is wrong.

I have to say the Oppo and the Denon are about a toss-up for which one does the best SD upconversion. I haven't decided yet.

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post #183 of 953 Old 04-28-2009, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioBear View Post

That would describe the behavior if the Panny was sending 1080p. Those controls (hue, brightness, contrast, color) still work but not the DNR and edge enhancement, etc. Any chance that's the problem?

Well that's encouraging. I tried to change the output of the Panny but perhaps it didn't really work. So I'll hook up my Toshiba XA2 HD DVD player which, I believe, will allow me to send 480i.

That said cpcat says he uses the DNR etc. on 1080p24 native sources. Now I only tried the DNR on DVDs, which I believe at one point at least were being output 1080p from my Blu Ray player. Would the Denon VP see a difference between a DVD output as 1080p vs a native 1080p Blu Ray signal, for some reason?
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post #184 of 953 Old 04-28-2009, 06:14 PM
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NR will not be active with a 1080p60 signal. NR will be active with all other signals including 1080p24. You need to have i/p scaler "on" for NR to work as well.

Send as close to native as you can. If not 480i (best) then 480p. The XA2 won't do 480i over HDMI. 480p via HDMI would probably be preferable to 480i over component with the XA2 since it will do well deinterlacing DVD film.

Even with 480p, the 602ci can still perform 3/2 frame detection on a film source and make perfect 1080p24.
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post #185 of 953 Old 04-28-2009, 07:26 PM
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Aweseomness cpcat. Thanks a million. Before I read your reply I found out my XA2 won't, as you point out, send 408i over HDMI so I selected 480p output and - voila! - the DNR/Sharpness/Enhancer worked! I'm very relieved.

I've only tried it so far on the very challenging Twilight Zone episode mentioned earlier, which has a nightmarish amount of grain/noise, and the DNR settings did an excellent job of settling the image down while apparently retaining the image detail. Just what I wanted. More experiments to come.

BTW, how do I know, or ensure, that I'm getting the scaling from the 602ci vs my display or from the source player? I want the 602ci doing as much as possible with the signal so I can see what it is capable of. Should I send it 1080i from my Blu Ray/HD DVD players?

Thank you very much!

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post #186 of 953 Old 04-29-2009, 05:21 AM
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To have the 602ci do all the scaling/deinterlacing, simply send the "native" signal to the 602ci. For example, native for DVD is 480i. The 602ci would then deinterlace to 480p followed by scaling to the native res of your display/projector (1080p).

If you are sending 480p HDMI from the XA2, then the XA2 is deinterlacing 480i to 480p and the 602ci is scaling to 1080p. That's the way I'd do it with the XA2.

There are DVD and BD players which will offer 480i HDMI for DVD playback. The cheapest route might be to pick up an Oppo 980 if you already have a BD player.

For BD/HDDVD, native is 1080p24 for film sources and 1080i for video sources (documentaries, concerts). 1080i is "next best" to native for film sources.
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post #187 of 953 Old 04-29-2009, 08:06 AM
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Thanks again cpcat. What a bummer that, with 3 HD DVD players and one Blu Ray player, I have no DVD player that outputs 480i.

BTW, is there any reason or benefit to sending my projector a 1080p/60 signal vs the 1080p/24...for any content? (I know that it's desirable to use 1080p/24 for film to avoid conversion/rate issues).
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post #188 of 953 Old 04-29-2009, 05:48 PM
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Yes, your pj will display 1080p24 at an integer multiple (p48, p72, p96, p120) to eliminate 3/2 cadence judder. This will make the image more fluid and film-like. It's also how it is shown at the theatre.
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post #189 of 953 Old 05-01-2009, 04:45 PM
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Something else I noticed: When I switch the Denon to 1080p/24 output I'm getting a stuttering picture (this is feeding it 480p...I can't remember if this issue happens feeding it any other input res/rate). When the Denon is outputting 1080p/60 it seems fine.
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post #190 of 953 Old 05-01-2009, 06:51 PM
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What exactly were you watching that you saw stuttering?

1080p24 from a film source shouldn't stutter at all or at least that is my experience with the 602ci. It's the best at 1080p24 conversion that I've seen. Some 720p broadcast film sources (ABC's Lost for example) do stutter some but I'm convinced it is something inherent to what ABC is doing with the signal. Video sources converted to 1080p24 will certainly stutter (and would be expected to).
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post #191 of 953 Old 05-01-2009, 08:27 PM
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cpcat,

It was the DVD of The Hulk, so film-based. I remember it happening on another film title too (but forget which one, a while back). I'll have to check some more. I sure hope my Denon doesn't have an issue with 1080p/24p.
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post #192 of 953 Old 05-02-2009, 04:58 AM
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You won't find absolutely perfect 1080p24 conversion for all film sources. Like I have said, the Realta is the best I have seen but it isn't perfect.

480i from DVD may work better. I don't have the Hulk to try but all of the DVD's I've tried so far at 480p from my PS3 work fine.

Remember that 1080p24 conversion of a 480p film source will depend upon the consistency of the initial deinterlacing step. If the player falters for whatever reason and reverts to video mode deinterlacing even for an instant, then it will be impossible not to produce artifacting with 1080p24 conversion (at the same instant) further down the line.
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post #193 of 953 Old 05-02-2009, 06:26 PM
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I appreciate your replies cpcat. You are pretty much the only "go-to" guy for the Denon at the moment. At this stage my projector is going back into it's box until my HT reno is done so I'll have to finish any experiments with the Denon at another time.

Cheers,

Rich
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post #194 of 953 Old 05-02-2009, 06:39 PM
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I'm beginning to understand why Silicon Optix/Realta and other similar companies have had a hard time excelling in this business. The differentiating features among the chips/technologies are subtle in a practical sense and furthermore require a extensively sophisticated customer base to distinguish among them. Basically, this is a recipe to propagate mediocrity in this particular market as it stands at this point.

Oh well.
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post #195 of 953 Old 05-03-2009, 06:48 AM
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WOOHOO! I got hold of this baby at the cost of 1K

Will hook it up this evening and see if i see a difference from my dvdo edge
just from my heads memory. If I don`t, I will hook up the edge and see if I can make a comparison.

If there is to be any justice to the test, i guess i need to buy some sort of switcher, since the 2500 only have one output?

There are two hdmi outputs on the dvp602, BUT can this processor leave on of them untouched, passthrewed?

I guess it would not be a fair test even if i have two identical films, but one of them in the ps3 and one in the 2500bt. The 2500 gives a better blu-ray pic from
the beginning.
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post #196 of 953 Old 05-03-2009, 09:37 AM
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Doesn`t the dvp-602ci allow optical out audio from hdmi??

The dvdo edge does this! A bit disapointed if it doesn`t. I`m sitting with
an older reciever right know.
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post #197 of 953 Old 05-05-2009, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batborsen View Post

Doesn`t the dvp-602ci allow optical out audio from hdmi??

The dvdo edge does this! A bit disapointed if it doesn`t. I`m sitting with
an older reciever right know.

answering my own question instead from info from denon. IT CAN NOT. Smart move from denon, sells more recievers that way. The dvdo edge wins in this area.
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post #198 of 953 Old 08-11-2009, 03:32 PM
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So I have been using the 602 for about 7 months and I really enjoy the improvement in PQ. I have been using it with an old non HDMI Denon 3805 AVR with optical audio from all sources directly to the AVR and HDMI or DVI/HDMI out from all sources to HDMI into the 602 and then HDMI out to TV.

I have just bought the new Denon AVR-4310 with the ABT-2010 video processing chip and had a couple of questions about the best method of interconecting all of my audio and video sources. I am planning on running all 3 sources (oppo DVD 971 DVI to HDMI cable, Directtv HR20-700 HDMI & HTPC HDMI) to the 602 and then HDMI out to TV with the second HDMI out to the denon 4310 for audio. I will also have to send optical audio from oppo to the Denon 4310 since the DVI out cable to the 602 won't be caring audio.

Is this the preferred method of connecting or should I simply run the HDMI out from the 602 to the Denon 4310 and then use the HDMI out from the 4310 to the TV? Any suggestions/recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

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post #199 of 953 Old 08-11-2009, 05:08 PM
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Yes that's about all you can do if you want to use the 602. You could try both processors on each input. There is a chance some will look better with the 602 doing the lifting, some with the 4310, and possibly some with a combination of the both. I use an Edge and a Denon AVP. My Oppo BDP 83 does its own video processing, and the Edge handles TV and Sat and sends it to the Denon. That means I use the ABT processor in the Edge for Sat and TV and suggests you might use the 4310. It also means I don't use the Realta T2 in the Denon AVP.

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post #200 of 953 Old 08-11-2009, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioBear View Post

Yes that's about all you can do if you want to use the 602. You could try both processors on each input. There is a chance some will look better with the 602 doing the lifting, some with the 4310, and possibly some with a combination of the both. I use an Edge and a Denon AVP. My Oppo BDP 83 does its own video processing, and the Edge handles TV and Sat and sends it to the Denon. That means I use the ABT processor in the Edge for Sat and TV and suggests you might use the 4310. It also means I don't use the Realta T2 in the Denon AVP.

I think what I will do is run an HDMI out from the AVR4310 to the TV and Then I can experiment with the 602 set to just pass through and have the 4310 do the processing and then set the 602 to scale and filter with the 4310 set to pass through and finally have them both process the video and see which is the best to my eyes

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post #201 of 953 Old 08-11-2009, 05:50 PM
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If the 4310 has a true passthru then you might just pass the HDMI out of the 602 thru the 4310. This will also allow you to view the 4310 GUI easily as well and also experiment with the 4310's video processing. That's my configuration with the Integra 9.8. Alternatively, you could hook another video output (e.g. composite out) from the 4310 to the 602 to allow viewing of the 4310 GUI.
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post #202 of 953 Old 08-11-2009, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

If the 4310 has a true passthru then you might just pass the HDMI out of the 602 thru the 4310. This will also allow you to view the 4310 GUI easily as well and also experiment with the 4310's video processing. That's my configuration with the Integra 9.8. Alternatively, you could hook another video output (e.g. composite out) from the 4310 to the 602 to allow viewing of the 4310 GUI.

Didn't think to look to see if the 4310 has a true passthru, but I will check to see. Alternatively, if I was scaling video from 480i to say 1080p via the 602 and then feeding this to the 4310 would it even attempt to do anything but passthru?

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post #203 of 953 Old 08-11-2009, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HTPCat View Post

Didn't think to look to see if the 4310 has a true passthru, but I will check to see. Alternatively, if I was scaling video from 480i to say 1080p via the 602 and then feeding this to the 4310 would it even attempt to do anything but passthru?


I don't know the 4310, but the ABT 2010 chip has things like colorspace conversion, hue, tint, sharpness, detail enhancement etc. which might still be applied. Also, if you like using the 602 to do conversion to 1080p24 for film sources, you'd not want the 4310 converting to 1080p60. If it doesn't have a passthru setting, I'd probably use the second HDMI out on the 602 for audio and then run another video output from the 4310 to the 602 for the GUI.
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post #204 of 953 Old 08-11-2009, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

I don't know the 4310, but the ABT 2010 chip has things like colorspace conversion, hue, tint, sharpness, detail enhancement etc. which might still be applied. Also, if you like using the 602 to do conversion to 1080p24 for film sources, you'd not want the 4310 converting to 1080p60. If it doesn't have a passthru setting, I'd probably use the second HDMI out on the 602 for audio and then run another video output from the 4310 to the 602 for the GUI.

Well in looking at the Denon 4310 manual I can turn the i/p scaler off which seems to imply that the video signal will be passed thru as received and that nothing will be added or subtracted from the picture.

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post #205 of 953 Old 08-29-2009, 10:17 PM
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Standalone and known companies is the way to go!

Just because it has x y or z chip does not mean it does anything "correct" with it!

IMPLEMENTATION IS THE KEY! ...and most of these companies lack any real expertise (Or the desire! ...not to mention the money!) to implement correctly!

So what do they do? they solder a chip in there with some rudimentary capabilities and call it a day...with the hopes that any buyers that do a so called "surface research" (...with google none the less!) see the name of the chip and fork over the cash for it!

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post #206 of 953 Old 08-31-2009, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prehjan View Post

Standalone and known companies is the way to go!

Just because it has x y or z chip does not mean it does anything "correct" with it!

IMPLEMENTATION IS THE KEY! ...and most of these companies lack any real expertise (Or the desire! ...not to mention the money!) to implement correctly!

So what do they do? they solder a chip in there with some rudimentary capabilities and call it a day...with the hopes that any buyers that do a so called "surface research" (...with google none the less!) see the name of the chip and fork over the cash for it!

Martin

The current discussion was in regard to 2 different chips, both in Denon products (DVP-602 and AVR-4310). One is a standalone and the other is part of a audio/video receiver. Denon is obviously a known company so are you saying that one or both of these products weren't implemented well? It is not really clear what your comments were referring too.

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post #207 of 953 Old 08-31-2009, 09:51 AM
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HTPcat

What I was referring to was that in most cases a standalone video processor from a specialized company is the way to go...and that majority of the time when you get a receiver with a video chip in it it is not well implemented!

Keep in mind that I have not seen the Denon processor in person (...both versions!), and I am not knocking it...but my guess would be as fas as options is concerned for setting it up I wold have to guess that my Lumagen will be more versatile and probably end up with a better PQ than the Denon. (...this is just from my past experiences! ...and I could be wrong on this!)

...If I would have to pick between the two denon version, It will probably not be the receiver....

I will download the manual and take a look at it and report back!
...short of the Denon sending me one to test, This is probably as fas as I would go.


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post #208 of 953 Old 08-31-2009, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prehjan View Post

HTPcat

What I was referring to was that in most cases a standalone video processor from a specialized company is the way to go...and that majority of the time when you get a receiver with a video chip in it it is not well implemented!

Keep in mind that I have not seen the Denon processor in person (...both versions!), and I am not knocking it...but my guess would be as fas as options is concerned for setting it up I wold have to guess that my Lumagen will be more versatile and probably end up with a better PQ than the Denon. (...this is just from my past experiences! ...and I could be wrong on this!)

...If I would have to pick between the two denon version, It will probably be the one that is not in a receiver....

I will download the manual and take a look at it and report back!
...short of the Denon sending me one to test, This is probably as fas as I would go.


Martin

Thanks for the comments Martin. I have to agree that a straight Video Processor compared to a chip inside of a receiver would usually be implemented much better. Considering that the DVP-602 video processor has a retail price $500 more than the Denon 4310 audio video receiver one would hope that was the case at least here . Although, there are some people in the forums that have used both of these products as well as the DVDO edge and have reported that the 4310 receiver with the ABT 2010 chip works almost as well as the DVP-602ci. Unforunately I can't do an AB test of the 4310's scaler and noise filter with the DVP-602 without going to alot of trouble and with no audio because it doesn't like the TV's DVI connection in the chain.

I would welcome your thoughts after you have looked through the manuals for both of the Denon products. In the next couple of months I will be purchasing a new plasma TV with HDMI and will be able to do some AB testing for myself.

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post #209 of 953 Old 08-31-2009, 09:21 PM
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HTPcat

I will look at the manuals!

What is it that you are trying to figure out exactly!
...I mean other than one being "better" than the other!

From my experience and understanding of the tech, I would have to say that everything in the chain and beyond makes a difference in the PQ.

For example:

If the display device is unable to show the differences then there is really no difference if you are using a or b!

That being said I am a little partial to the Lumagen offerings.

I am a CRT FP user and have also tried the Lumagen on different displays that I own or owned along the way.

As far a quality and build is concerned it is much better in my opinion! (Better...being a subjective word!) than even the dvdo offerings...(Prices are almost the same! for the high end stuff from both companies!)

...as far as the Denon's offerings are concerned I have not been following and will need to take a look!

The Lumagen has a lot more tweaks/settings and can be configured almost to perfection. (...as an engineer by trade and a video/audio end user/nut I hate it when a company makes the decisions for me!)

In the Lumagen's case it seems that the company actually looks at what the end user will/might want! (DVDo does not seem to do that!)

As far as people reporting that they do not see a difference, I would have to say: "what gear do you have and what are the capabilities of them...not to mention how well were you able to set up and tweak your stuff!"

I have seen folks buy the ultra tech stuff and use a less than optimal interconnect between them and be happy with it! (Hey it gives out a picture and the gear is ultra high cost...so this must be the best possible! Problem is that they have no idea of what the capabilities of the system are and how it should be setup...not to mention that most folks have never seen a proper image/PQ let alone know what to look for!)

...and anything in the chain could ruin the whole experience!

I know that I may be generalizing a little. but trust me when I tell you that it happens!

Anyhow if you could detail your gear I will be more than happy to tell you what I think you might want to consider!

Martin
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post #210 of 953 Old 08-31-2009, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HTPCat View Post

Although, there are some people in the forums that have used both of these products as well as the DVDO edge and have reported that the 4310 receiver with the ABT 2010 chip works almost as well as the DVP-602ci.

As far as I know, I'm the only one here who has directly compared the DVDO Edge with the Denon 602ci. The ABT2010 in the Edge lacks temporal noise reduction which is a big disadvantage IMO. Furthermore, the ABT2010 scaling rings more. Finally, the film deinterlacing of the ABT2010 is slower in picking up the cadence which makes it more prone to artifacting and less able to produce stable 1080p24 from film sources. This becomes particularly applicable with broadcast film sources. Other than that, I'd agree the ABT2010 works "almost as well".

As far as Lumagen Radiance goes, I'm sure you'll get an excellent product with excellent performance/features but at a significant jump in price over the 602ci.
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