Cary Cinema 11v - one to watch? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 55 Old 09-12-2007, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I just read the Cary Cinema 11 thread and GCD posted the quote below.

I don't know much about Cary, and had no idea they were getting into the stand alone VP game. Considering they are using the Genesis FL30436 chip, what reasonable asumptions can be made regarding its performance??

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Originally Posted by GCD@CAD View Post

We showed a prototype sample of the Cinema 11v at CEDIA this last week. It has the ability to scale video to as high as 1080p @ 120 Hz scan rate. I am unaware of any flat panel video display available at this time that will let us send that native signal to the display but I am hoping that future designs will be like several projectors I have used this last year that let a 1080p input bypass internal processing for better video quality.

Our use of the Cary digi-link connector has been done to enable us to offer eight channel/24 bit/96 kHz PCM signals to the DSP section in the Cinema 11. This is the way we intend to decode higher bit rate sound formats from either Dolby or DTS. It seemed unusual to many of you, I guess, at the release of the Cinema 11 but I hope it makes sense to all of you now. We were trying to combat obsolescence in a rapidly evolving design sector of the playback system. Our deliberate choice to leave off the HDMI in design allowed us to leapfrog to the latest design and not be stuck with the 1.1 version we might have had otherwise.

HDMI technology has evolved far more rapidly 'on paper' than it has in hardware availability for either prototype design or production. Our patience in waiting for the chips to do 1.3 has paid off. We knew in July 2006 that it was coming. It is only recently that the parts have arrived to do it.

We intend to start shipping the Cinema 11v at the end of October. We are using the latest chip set from Genesis called the FL30436. This is a Faroudja DCDi design and has many exciting features for use with either HDMI 1.3 or with legacy components like a VCR.

You will need to use the Cinema 11v to feed the higher data rate sound formats to a Cinema 11. It was designed that way from the start. We have decided that the two chassis design is superior to a one chassis solution and have shelved the one chassis design for now. We have better noise isolation with the two piece design and we do not force you to buy a video processor if you don't want one.

Thanks for all the feedback in here about the Cinema 11. The version 1.2 software has been checked and seems to be bug free as of now. We will post it soon along with a new version of the menu and an explanation of the changes we made in the menu and why we did the change. This forum was the reason for many of the software changes we have made so you should thank yourselves for your many suggestions! We listened and we acted because of you.

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post #2 of 55 Old 09-18-2007, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Can one of you VP SME's comment on these specs and how this VP should perform in comparison to the ABT / Reon chips? This stuff is over my head, but the twin HDMI 1.3 outputs are very attactive to me....

------------------

HIGHLIGHTS include:
1080p@120Hz WUXGA output
(yes it does 24fps)
HDMI 1.3 (6) in (2) out
digi-link system connector (2gig bandwidth) for combination with the C11 surround processor
RGB and Component video
Dual RS232 ports
Five assignable audio inputs, one analog, two toslink, two coaxial digital
Rear Panel IR input and output plus dual 12volt remote triggers
Eight each assignable S-Video and composite video inputs.

Removable AC power cord
Eight each assignable S-Video and Composite video inputs (17 video inputs total)
Rear panel IR input and output plus dual 12 volt remote triggers
Dual RS 232 ports for system control and update capabilities
Cary Digi-link system connector for combination with the Cinema 11 Surround Sound Processor
Two digital audio outputs, one coaxial, one Toslink
Five assignable audio inputs, one analog, two Toslink, two coaxial digital
Component video output
RGB video output
HDMI 1.3 generation inputs (6) and outputs (2)
Integrated I2S Audio Delay to exact audio and video synchronization

OUTPUT FORMATS
1368 x 768, 1400 x 768, 1400 x 1050, 1440 x 864 ,1440 x 960, 1440 x 1152, 1920 x 1080, 1920 x 1200 960 x 540, 1024 x 576, 1024 x 1024 ALiS, 1280 x 720, 1280 x 768, 1280 x 1024, 1360 x 768, 1366 x 768, 1080p - 25, 1080p - 50, 1080p - 60, 1080p - 120, 640 x 480, 800 x 600, 848 x 480, 852 x 480, 856 x 480,
Video resolution settings: 480p, 540p, 576p, 720p - 50, 720p - 60, 1080i - 50, 1080i - 60, 1080p - 24,
1080p @ 120 Hz WUXGA output

OTHER FEATURES
DCDi Edge® processing for the second channel window
Side by side (PBP) window support
Video PIP over video background

PICTURE-IN-PICTURE (PIP)
ACM-3D ensures full dynamic range is used in video content flesh-tone compensation, blue stretch and other image enhancements

ADVANCED COLOR MANAGEMENT (ACM-3D)
Removal of DVD Chroma Upsampling Error (CUE) introduced by some DVD sources
Non-linear Chroma and Luma enhancement lters with Noise Coring

FAROUDJA TRUE LIFE VIDEO ENHANCER
Adaptive 3D/TNR Noise Reduction lm processing
Adaptive Media Display Processing for 3:2 and 2:2 video content
Panoramic and Anamorphic non-linear scaling
Format conversion up to WUXGA resolutions
Per Pixel Motion Adaptive de-Interlacing (MADi) up to 1080i format
Low Angle De-Interlacing processing

FAROUDJA DCDi CINEMA FORMAT CONVERSION
Supports all broadcast TV standards- NTSC/PAL/SECAM worldwide nition) video input signals
Two - 3D Adaptive Comb Filters for Luma-Chroma separation Faroudja® IntelliComb Technology

INTEGRATED 3D VIDEO DECODER
10-bit Advanced Color Management (ACM-3D) and Adaptive Contrast Control (ACC)
Faroudja True Life Video Enhancer
Next Generation 10-bit Faroudja® DCDi CINEMA format conversion
True 10-bit Processing
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post #3 of 55 Old 09-19-2007, 08:12 AM
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I am interested as well and I am not familiar at all with video processors but the way this system is set up via HDMI and as a two box system I am very very interested in the Cary.

I currently have the Denon 5805Ci but I am going to put it up on the market for sale and get the Cary. There has been so much talked about concerning the sound quality that it is too good not to give it a shot. I have heard Cary products in the past and have loved the sound quality and these pieces offer a lot of flexibility.
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post #4 of 55 Old 09-19-2007, 11:22 PM
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I'm curious to see how the Cary Cinema 11v will stack up next to the Lumagen Radiance. We'll only know after both are released.
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post #5 of 55 Old 09-20-2007, 06:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm quite surprised to the lack of responces to this inquiry from the video guys.

I'd of thought they would have an opinion on the Faroudja chip this unit will be using.
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post #6 of 55 Old 09-20-2007, 10:54 PM
 
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Oh look, my post got recycled again! It could be the sleeper product from CEDIA. We'll know more soon hopefully, Cary is working hard at it and there are features that may be unlocked yhet that aren't listed in these specs.

Richard
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post #7 of 55 Old 09-21-2007, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVSRichard View Post

Oh look, my post got recycled again! It could be the sleeper product from CEDIA. We'll know more soon hopefully, Cary is working hard at it and there are features that may be unlocked yhet that aren't listed in these specs.

Richard

Sorry Richard. Didn't mean to quote you without your knowledge. I'm not a forum quote pro...

If the VP50 Pro doesn't perform as promised, I'm sending it back this time. I'm finding that my patience isn't what is used to be and am quite tired of being a beta tester without being asked to be one.

This Cary model looks as if it is exactly what I've been looking for.. The chip they are using is a concern though. I was led to believe that Faroudja is not a major player anymore.

Geez... I haven't even got my new toy and I'm already thinking about buying something different.
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post #8 of 55 Old 10-01-2007, 11:28 PM
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I've just read on an Australian AV forum that the Cinema 11v will be able to decode DTS-HD-MA before passing it on as PCM to the Cinema 11a surround processor.

See here: http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?s...6&#entry790896
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post #9 of 55 Old 11-18-2007, 07:22 AM
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Any idea when Cary will release the Cinema 11v?
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post #10 of 55 Old 12-02-2007, 11:20 AM
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The word is mid-December. Believe me, there are a LOT of people waiting for this baby.
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post #11 of 55 Old 12-02-2007, 07:24 PM
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If it just has the Faroudja chipset, then its not that special - compared to Gennum's VXP or Reon or HQV the Faroudja is a bit "dated"

I have a Crystalio 2 which has two chipsets (Faroudja & VXP). The factory recommendation is to use Faroudja for SD and VXP for HD but I don't use Faroudja at all.

IMHO VXP is far superior.

As a VP, unless the CC11v has another VP chip/chipset in it I wouldn't buy it

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post #12 of 55 Old 12-03-2007, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oliverg View Post

If it just has the Faroudja chipset, then its not that special - compared to Gennum's VXP or Reon or HQV the Faroudja is a bit "dated"

As a VP, unless the CC11v has another VP chip/chipset in it I wouldn't buy it

Hi mate ; the 11v isn't getting the old chip like the fli2310 [which has problems deinterlacing 1080i] . The fl30436 is so new nobody knows much about it yet I for one am glad it can handle120hz refresh rates to improve fast motion . Seems a good match to the new sony 'blue ruby' vw200; which is 120hz too
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post #13 of 55 Old 12-03-2007, 09:17 AM
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Hi back thanks for the update - that's good to know. Faroujda would definately need something new to compare with HQV/VXP or even REON.

I'm not convinced that 120Hz (internal) on SXRD panels is of any benefit - the 2.5ms PRT is the limitation there. I haven't been able to see any difference between my old Ruby and the new VW200

Having "120Hz" is one thing but the PRT needs to be sufficient to justify it and the panels in the 200 are no different to the 100. (correct me if I'm wrong)

Kind regards

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post #14 of 55 Old 12-03-2007, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oliverg View Post


I'm not convinced that 120Hz (internal) on SXRD panels is of any benefit - the 2.5ms PRT is the limitation there. I haven't been able to see any difference between my old Ruby and the new VW200

Having "120Hz" is one thing but the PRT needs to be sufficient to justify it and the panels in the 200 are no different to the 100. (correct me if I'm wrong)

Kind regards

Can see what your saying oliver ; my vp50 refreshes at 96khz as it is [for 24p]
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post #15 of 55 Old 12-04-2007, 03:59 AM
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Here is a link to the new Genesis video controller solution being provided by Cary in the Cinema 11V: http://www.gnss.com/products/FLI3043...Controller.pdf

Unfortunately, the release of the Cary Cinema 11V has been further delayed by Cary. Maybe until next year.

Stan
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post #16 of 55 Old 01-05-2008, 01:09 PM
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It sure would be good to see if the 11V has graduated beyond vaporware including something more than a couple page dealer pamphlet. Maybe even hooked up with an 11A (Version 2).

Tim
Selling Anthem PVA7.
STABILITY + Superior audio (SC09-TX) + Incredible picture (VPL-VW200) + good integration.
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post #17 of 55 Old 01-11-2008, 11:49 AM
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Here is the spec sheet for the new 11v that was issued at CES. They also had an 11v on hand although it was not connected. All indications is that they are due to ship in 30 to 45 days.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post12780049
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post #18 of 55 Old 01-12-2008, 09:09 AM
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Faroudja has rised from the dead.. Bet on the scaling to be no better than a Xa2 HD DVD or any other decent player (that most buyers will already have). The Radiance scaler is far more expensive and sophisticated..

1. It will not video process as well as the Radiance...nor have all the goodies.
2. Still an LPCM product

It'll probably sound good for the money would be my guess and likely a must only for a Carry 11A owner.

But if I was in the market, I'd wait til the HDMI 1.3 product.... For sure...... if it doesn't compromise the sound.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #19 of 55 Old 01-12-2008, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rydenfan View Post

Here is the spec sheet for the new 11v that was issued at CES. They also had an 11v on hand although it was not connected. All indications is that they are due to ship in 30 to 45 days.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post12780049

I bet they don't ship in 30 to 45 days if they weren't showing a working unit at CES. Maybe being here on AVS all of these years has made me too pessimistic about equipment release dates.

It looks like an interesting processor especially if you have a cary prepro. On the other had at a quick glance, I don't see anything that would make me want to get it over the Radiance or VP50Pro, I am interested in how well the new Faroudja chip performs.

-- Well I have really blown my budget now. --
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post #20 of 55 Old 01-12-2008, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Faroudja has rised from the dead.. Bet on the scaling to be no better than a Xa2 HD DVD or any other decent player (that most buyers will already have). The Radiance scaler is far more expensive and sophisticated..

1. It will not video process as well as the Radiance...nor have all the goodies.
2. Still an LPCM product

It'll probably sound good for the money would be my guess and likely a must only for a Carry 11A owner.

But if I was in the market, I'd wait til the HDMI 1.3 product.... For sure...... if it doesn't compromise the sound.

You lost me It is HMDI 1.3 and it will pass all the audio codecs to an audio processor of your choosing, just like the VP50PRO is "supposed" to do.

I think it's a little premature to make statements that it will not perform as well as the Radiance or DVDO. The chipset is new and no one has seen it in action. It may very well blow all the current VP's out of the water, or conversely, it might suck.

This unit, from what I can interpret from the literature, appears to have the best of both the Radiance and VP50Pro. Whether or not it works worth a darn will be the story of interest.
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post #21 of 55 Old 01-12-2008, 01:00 PM
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Yeah it would be great if it blows all other VPs out of the water. I love to see progression even if it is better than the machine I just bought.

It is interesting. Maybe I need to put together a spreadsheet with all three as I can't see anything super special that popped out that the other two flagship processors didn't have in some form or another. I should add the Crystalio too the spreadsheet too. I did that several months ago to determine which one I would buy, but things have changed slightly since then.

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post #22 of 55 Old 01-12-2008, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Faroudja has rised from the dead.. Bet on the scaling to be no better than a Xa2 HD DVD or any other decent player (that most buyers will already have). The Radiance scaler is far more expensive and sophisticated..

1. It will not video process as well as the Radiance...nor have all the goodies.
2. Still an LPCM product

It'll probably sound good for the money would be my guess and likely a must only for a Carry 11A owner.

But if I was in the market, I'd wait til the HDMI 1.3 product.... For sure...... if it doesn't compromise the sound.

Hi Jeff,

As you know from our past correspondence prior to your SSP-100 purchase, I am a Halcro Dealer and have always been a big proponent for their product. I am also a dealer for Cary.

In my opinion, the original Cary Cinema 11 at $3,000.00 offers far more flexible audio setup features (crossover points for all speakers individually, etc.) and outperforms a non LPCM Halcro SSP-100 at $10k. The Cary is dead silent, versus the SSP-100 which is definitely not the most quiet pre-pro out there. Compared to the SSP-100, the Cinema 11 is just as transparent, dynamic and offers amazing surround steering. Also, I've never had a Cinema 11 go back to Cary for service. They are rock solid. Did I mention how quiet the Cinema 11 is?

When Cary finally releases the HDMI 1.3a 11V, I'd love to see how this $6,500.00 combo compares to the LPCM SSP-200?

Gregg Dunn, Cary's former Natl. Sales Mgr. had explained to me that the new Faroudja video scaling platform was chosen above all others because it was the best performing. They were originally going to have DVDO build the VP for them until they found the new Genesis chipset to be superior. Cary's lofty goal was to create more than just an add on unit for the 11a, but a full featured, top performing standalone video processor. Gregg Dunn felt they had created a VP that outperformed my favorite Crystalio II. I hope they've succeeded because I sold my C2 based on his claims!
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post #23 of 55 Old 01-12-2008, 05:19 PM
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So what are you using for a VP in the meantime? I am glad that the sales dude says that the new VP will be better. I hope it is. Improvement is always a good thing.

I would hate to sell my VP and live without one while waiting in anticipation for one that may or may not be better though. Not to mention that release dates always get slipped.

-- Well I have really blown my budget now. --
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameron View Post

So what are you using for a VP in the meantime? I am glad that the sales dude says that the new VP will be better. I hope it is. Improvement is always a good thing.

I would hate to sell my VP and live without one while waiting in anticipation for one that may or may not be better though. Not to mention that release dates always get slipped.

Hi Cameron,

I'm not really "slummin it" without the C2 because my Sim 2 C3X has an excellent internal scaler. In the meantime I'm using an HDMI 1.3 switcher.

Since I've already disposed of my C2, I hope the new VP is better too!. My C2 has always been a little quirky and the media player has never worked as advertised. I've been looking for something better to come along for some time.

Thank you for the compliment, calling me "the sales dude"! My clients consider me to be more of a consultant but I'm proud to sell such fine products. I guess that makes me a sales dude.

For the record, unless it is a friend or a referral, I only sell in my own state, CT. Therefore, I have no reason to pitch any product on this forum. It costs me money to follow these threads and respond, because it's time away from my work and time is money. I say it as I see it and I only relay info told to me firsthand or from my own experience.
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post #25 of 55 Old 01-12-2008, 07:09 PM
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I wasn't calling you the sales dude. I was calling Gregg Dunn the sales dude.

Yeah it is too bad the Crystalio hasn't quite blossomed as well as it could have.

Yeah those Sim2 machines have done a good job with their internal processors. You are definitely not slumming it. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the 11v when you get one.

-- Well I have really blown my budget now. --
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post #26 of 55 Old 01-14-2008, 05:14 AM
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Gregg Dunn is long gone from Cary and we are still awaiting the release of the Cinema 11V and the new hdmi enabled Cinema 11.

Here is a pdf of the 11V nicely posted by Kal R.

 

cary11v-1.pdf 304.6025390625k . file

Stan
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post #27 of 55 Old 01-14-2008, 06:51 AM
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Nothing against Cary...Faroudja, I thought, was dead.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #28 of 55 Old 01-14-2008, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiodynamics View Post

Hi Jeff,

As you know from our past correspondence prior to your SSP-100 purchase, I am a Halcro Dealer and have always been a big proponent for their product. I am also a dealer for Cary.

In my opinion, the original Cary Cinema 11 at $3,000.00 offers far more flexible audio setup features (crossover points for all speakers individually, etc.) and outperforms a non LPCM Halcro SSP-100 at $10k. The Cary is dead silent, versus the SSP-100 which is definitely not the most quiet pre-pro out there. Compared to the SSP-100, the Cinema 11 is just as transparent, dynamic and offers amazing surround steering. Also, I've never had a Cinema 11 go back to Cary for service. They are rock solid. Did I mention how quiet the Cinema 11 is?

When Cary finally releases the HDMI 1.3a 11V, I'd love to see how this $6,500.00 combo compares to the LPCM SSP-200?

Gregg Dunn, Cary's former Natl. Sales Mgr. had explained to me that the new Faroudja video scaling platform was chosen above all others because it was the best performing. They were originally going to have DVDO build the VP for them until they found the new Genesis chipset to be superior. Cary's lofty goal was to create more than just an add on unit for the 11a, but a full featured, top performing standalone video processor. Gregg Dunn felt they had created a VP that outperformed my favorite Crystalio II. I hope they've succeeded because I sold my C2 based on his claims!

Hi,

I updated my Halcro to the SSP 200. Sonically, it is fantastic.. They have solved the HDMI issues with the noise floor. It is now extremely quiet.

Like you, I have been at this game for so long that when I see a company releasing their first video processor / SSP combo that is supposed to be a world beater, I know that 9/10 times it won't and 1/10 it will simply come close to matching what is currently available from a specialty product. Companies like Lumagen who only do one thing are tough to beat with a first time product. And that doesn't even take into acct bug fixes, etc. The Anthem D2 is a prime example. Video processors pose a lot of issues. HDMI poses a lot of issues.... I have watched all of the time and effort Lumagen has been putting in with each update. They ar using the newest technology as well.. They are very sophisticated components that are finnicky when asked to do more and advanced features. .

I hope it works out. Cary has always had a reputation for great sound at a fair price. $6500 is a deal for all of that IF it performs as is supposed to.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #29 of 55 Old 01-14-2008, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Hi,

I updated my Halcro to the SSP 200. Sonically, it is fantastic.. They have solved the HDMI issues with the noise floor. It is now extremely quiet.

Like you, I have been at this game for so long that when I see a company releasing their first video processor / SSP combo that is supposed to be a world beater, I know that 9/10 times it won't and 1/10 it will simply come close to matching what is currently available from a specialty product. Companies like Lumagen who only do one thing are tough to beat with a first time product. And that doesn't even take into acct bug fixes, etc. The Anthem D2 is a prime example. Video processors pose a lot of issues. HDMI poses a lot of issues.... I have watched all of the time and effort Lumagen has been putting in with each update. They ar using the newest technology as well.. They are very sophisticated components that are finnicky when asked to do more and advanced features. .

I hope it works out. Cary has always had a reputation for great sound at a fair price. $6500 is a deal for all of that IF it performs as is supposed to.


Actually, I wasn't knocking the SSP-200 or the SSP-100. My point is that Cary's Cinema 11 is a very close match to the sound of the SSP-100. The Cinema 11 is stable, trouble free and it only costs $3k.

As one of the first High End Pre/Pro manufacturers to include HDMI, Halcro deserves a lot of credit for being daring and sticking their neck out. And they've had their mountains to climb and crosses to bear because of it. While their customer service is beyond reproach, the numerous issues have frustrated many clients. The thorn in Halcro's side is Vinci Labs. In order for Halcro to sort out any hardware or software issues, they must deal with Vinci Labs and their issues.

Cary was smart enough to drop Vinci Labs when they discontinued their Cinema 8 Pre/Pro. The development of their own proprietary platform is a benefit to both Cary and Cinema 11 owners alike. If Vinci ceases production of OEM platforms, several Pre/Pro manufacturers will be SOL!

To use your Lumagen reference as an analogy, this is what Cary has done with the Cinema 11. They concentrated on what they do best, putting all of their efforts into optimizing the audio circuitry and sound quality, while eliminating the video and HDMI issues altogether. Now that HDMI has matured, the time has come to finish what they had started. So don't count Cary out on the 11v just because audio is their specialty. The Cary DVD 7 is known as one of the best DVD players at any price. Cary's engineering partner is no newbie at video processing. I along with many others am hoping the 11v lives up to expectations.

How's your room remodel coming along? Is everything tweaked to your liking?
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post #30 of 55 Old 01-18-2008, 03:22 PM
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f***it i`m getting one annyways. I`m sick and tired of switching HDMI cables back and forth between my tv and projector.
To me 11V looks like a sweet machine with lots of HDMi innputs, good styling and best of all two HDMI out.
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