Lumagen Vision 24p fixup release to include gamut control - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 736 Old 05-19-2008, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Let me post what I have done.
My before readings (no gamut, COLR at 128) look like this:

r g b y c m w
x .666 .283 .137 .446 .203 .331 .316
y .332 .703 .047 .544 .340 .151 .335
Y 45.067 118.951 10.836 157.086 127.978 55.444 164.436

dE 37.4 33.5 6.9 19.6 19.8 21.2

Here are my best corrected readings:

r g b y c m w
x .645 .288 .147 .428 .218 .332 .317
y .332 .617 .063 .495 .318 .167 .332
Y 30.371 102.037 10.944 152.994 141.155 53.9 166.245

dE 10.4 7.1 8.2 9.9 10.1 9.8

I finally got around to looking at the numbers and it is clear that you can improve this even further with the tools you have.

Here's where the Vision's color decoding tools become very handy. Use the COLRED tool to raise the lightness of red and COLGRN to raise the lightness of green. Use HUERED to adjust the hue of magenta and the HUEGRN to adjust the hue of yellow.

Of course, this assumes that these controls do not have unwanted secondary effects. I don't think that they do when used in modest amounts.

Tom Huffman
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post #182 of 736 Old 05-19-2008, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

However, it appears that reducing the dE for each color is not the only goal. In particular, you want to aim for Y values that are indicated by the measured primaries. Depending on the details, that may lead to somewhat higher dEs that would would get if you aimed for Y's that more closely matched the Rec. 709 or SMPTE-C standard. That's what I referred to below as the counterintuitive result.

Tom, I fear that something I wrote is still causing confusion, or perhaps we just disagree (which would be ok, but now I'm confused trying to figure out what you are saying). Why would you want to aim for Y values that are computed from the measured (either native or adjusted) primaries? Why not try to minimize the dE values relative to the standard you want (Rec. 709 or SMPTE C), not as a cumulative sum, in my opinion, but prioritized by specific primary colors?

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post #183 of 736 Old 05-19-2008, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I finally got around to looking at the numbers and it is clear that you can improve this even further with the tools you have.

Here's where the Vision's color decoding tools become very handy. Use the COLRED tool to raise the lightness of red and COLGRN to raise the lightness of green. Use HUERED to adjust the hue of magenta and the HUEGRN to adjust the hue of yellow.

Of course, this assumes that these controls do not have unwanted secondary effects. I don't think that they do when used in modest amounts.


I'll give it a try! Thanks.

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post #184 of 736 Old 05-20-2008, 04:21 AM
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For those that are interested, Here is a copy of my config file for my Vision.

I have only set up mem A on inputs 1 and 6. Input 1 is a DVI input and input 6 is a component input.

Set all settings on your RS1 and Vision to default. Note that correct COLR on the HDQ is 128 on most configurations, but I know that some people have had issues with 128 and have used 112.

I am not sure what use this is to anyone because it seems either that all RS1's are different or that the age of the lamp dramatically changes color performance. I have around 900 hours on my RS1. I know that Ron has about half that and he is tweaking these settings for his use. I am sure that he will share them when he is done. The results that he had previously posted are quite good as well. Dan has a new lamp, gets much better results and needs a lot less correction overall.

Use these at your own risk. I have no idea what could happen to you or your equipment if you use them. I'm not responsible.

Good luck.

 

Gamut_RS1.zip 1.314453125k . file

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post #185 of 736 Old 05-20-2008, 06:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I finally got around to looking at the numbers and it is clear that you can improve this even further with the tools you have.

Here's where the Vision's color decoding tools become very handy. Use the COLRED tool to raise the lightness of red and COLGRN to raise the lightness of green. Use HUERED to adjust the hue of magenta and the HUEGRN to adjust the hue of yellow.

Of course, this assumes that these controls do not have unwanted secondary effects. I don't think that they do when used in modest amounts.

This can help, but be careful of crushing the colors when you raise any of the color gains from default settings. As Tom said add these "in modest amounts".

One other thought I had is that using "Video Levels" out, even when you might otherwise choose "PC levels" will give you a bit more headroom for increasing these without crushing colors. This is because you are backing away from the walls so to speak. Of course you need to adjust black and contrast in the display to account for this.

Jim Peterson
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post #186 of 736 Old 05-21-2008, 03:39 PM
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Is there any further word on the possible production of a 'Radiance-Lite', a CMS-only version of the Radiance that omits the scaling and de-interlacing processing?
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post #187 of 736 Old 05-21-2008, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Is there any further word on the possible production of a 'Radiance-Lite', a CMS-only version of the Radiance that omits the scaling and de-interlacing processing?

And eliminates all the "extra" inputs. I say "extra" because most of us don't need 18 inputs!
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post #188 of 736 Old 05-22-2008, 04:04 AM
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I had heard that Lumagen is planning a one input, one output (HDMI only) Radiance. If this is true, I don't think we'll see it for a long time yet.

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post #189 of 736 Old 05-22-2008, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

I had heard that Lumagen is planning a one input, one output (HDMI only) Radiance. If this is true, I don't think we'll see it for a long time yet.

'long time' =/~ 6 months? 12 months?
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post #190 of 736 Old 05-22-2008, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

'long time' =/~ 6 months? 12 months?

I have no idea but I would guess that it is a year or more away. Just a guess.

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post #191 of 736 Old 05-22-2008, 09:02 AM
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I think the one in one out radiance is only an idea. It may never come to market.
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post #192 of 736 Old 05-22-2008, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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It will be a while before we have a one-in one-out Radiance. We do not have a schedule, even internally, and have not started working on it. We have started on the RadianceXS, but even that does not have a schedule yet. It would come after the RadianceXE (HDMI 1.3) verson of the Radiance (same I/O as RadianceXD with HDMI 1.3).

A calibration only box is also being discussed, but that would be after any Radiance with scaling boxes are introducted as there is quite a bit of software interacting with having a video processor in the mix that would need to be re-written.

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post #193 of 736 Old 05-22-2008, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

A calibration only box is also being discussed, but that would be after any Radiance with scaling boxes are introducted as there is quite a bit of software interacting with having a video processor in the mix that would need to be re-written.

I know that the Radiance does a myriad of things extremely well, but upconversion, scaling, de-interlacing, etc., and now done very well (though maybe not as well as the Radiance does them) by BluRay players, AV receivers, and even the vp's in good projectors themselves. But the ONE THING that is that often not available in any capacity is a CMS. So if Lumagen could offer a box that did this ONE thing--as simply and economically as possible--I think it would fill a real gap in the market and be quite a hit.

Many of us had hoped that this is what JVC was going to introduce (specifically for their RS projectors), but they simply tacked it onto a full-featured vp, and the price is thus unreasonable, almost what many of us paid for our RS1's.
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post #194 of 736 Old 05-22-2008, 10:55 AM
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I agree with millerwill. If Lumagen (or anyone else) came out with an affordable aftermarket CMS (including greyscale and gamma calibration), they would have the market all to themselves. I think that calibrators everywhere would push these because (1) they would know how to use them (no need to get up to speed with every model TV or projector) and (2) They could obtain consistently better results for their clients (how many TVs or projectors have the full range of control that is needed for a proper correction?).

Now, I could argue that the Vision is really close enough. I, and others, have gotten very good results using it. But, it takes quite a bit of time to get where you want to be because the controls aren't as flexible as they could be. Plus, you can't get technically perfect results, as least with a projector, like the RS1, that has major oversaturation (fn, I suspect a Vision would be easier to use with an RS2 than an RS1 because the RS2 is way oversaturated in green and red, as opposed to just green -- Just a theory).

Millerwill, if you are inclined to give it a try, the Vision will take your RS1 to another level.

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post #195 of 736 Old 05-22-2008, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Millerwill, if you are inclined to give it a try, the Vision will take your RS1 to another level.

I've thought about it and followed all your heroic efforts in this regard with great interest. I would like to buy an eye-one and get into this calibration thing at the amateur level, but it's likely that I will replace my RS1 with an 'RS3' (or something) this coming fall/winter, so I'm going to wait until then to get into it. And, of course, I am hoping that by then Lumagen will do what we (and others) are recommending to them ( though I'm not sure they appreciate us telling them how to run their business!).
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post #196 of 736 Old 05-22-2008, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

I've thought about it and followed all your heroic efforts in this regard with great interest. I would like to buy an eye-one and get into this calibration thing at the amateur level, but it's likely that I will replace my RS1 with an 'RS3' (or something) this coming fall/winter, so I'm going to wait until then to get into it. And, of course, I am hoping that by then Lumagen will do what we (and others) are recommending to them ( though I'm not sure they appreciate us telling them how to run their business!).

That was my original plan. I even put my RS1 up for sale (and at a reasonable price too). Let's just say that the market for "pre-owned" projectors, even of the quality of the RS1 isn't really there. I wan't willing to lose as much money on the sale as I would have had to.

So, Ron convinced me to give the Vision a try and get a few years out of my RS1. I'm not saying that if something amazing comes along at CEDIA that I wouldn't jump at it (I might) but I am pretty skeptical seeing what I see right now with my RS1/Vision combo.

One other thing that both Ron and I noticed (and I don't think has been mentioned) is that the Vision does a MUCH better job than the RS1 with SD or poorer quality sources. I don't know why this is but a lot of the picture noise that people complained about with the RS1 is now gone and SD material looks much, much better. Deinterlacing isn't quite up to snuff with the RS1. Sometimes it seems to struggle to find the correct method), but that is rarely seen.

The biggest improvements in PQ are I think the result of the Vision's grayscale and gamma features. I noticed the improvements in PQ from the first moment after completing the calibration.

Calibration is really fun. If I were you I would pick up a colorimeter just to play around with and measure what you have. I was surprised to learn how messed up my grayscale was, for instance, because the RS1 was consistently reviewed as coming very well calibrated from the factory.

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post #197 of 736 Old 05-22-2008, 11:52 AM
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LG, Interesting what you say about gray scale, for I too had heard that the RS's came OTB with excellent gray scale. ??

Well, if I do decide to upgrade this fall/winter, at least I don't have to worry about selling my RS1; my daughter and son-in-law (in particular) are salivating over the fact that I may not have further need of the RS1. (They now have a Mits 73" rptv that I 'released' to them when I got the RS1.) OTOH, you may very well be correct that there is actually not going to be a very significant increment beyond the RS1 before a couple of more years, at least in the < $10K range. (But others say that the RS2 is already such an increment, so let's see what JVC has in store, as well as what the dlp group comes up with.)
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post #198 of 736 Old 05-22-2008, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

LG, Interesting what you say about gray scale, for I too had heard that the RS's came OTB with excellent gray scale. ??

But that drifts big time as the bulb ages. You can get the greyscale perfectly calibrated with the 11 point system in the Lumagen and then set the gamma nicely.

It isn't the easiest processor to use so it will take some time to figure it out. Now that I know how to use it I really like the user interface. I can make changes easily without a big pop up menu blocking the picture.

I use forced Per pixel deinterlacing for my SAT DVR and forced film sometimes with movies if I am using 24p output. The auto modes have some issues but so far Per Pixel deinterlacing yields a very very sharp artifact free picture 99.9% of the time. The HDQ has all the inputs I need too. Plus the colors look much better now. I never see a color that stands out wrong to my eyes like the greens and really bad yellows it had before the vision gamut mitigation. I'll stick with my RS1 for many years. I am not the one to upgrade a lot. My last projector was a Sony VW10HT that lasted 7-8 years for me. My friend still has it and it still works great. So in 2016 I'll probably still be using my RS1 if it lasts like my Sony did.

I need to add that motion blur is much less noticable with my HDQ doing the deinterlacing. The HDQ has very smooth pans even in 1080p/60. And using 1080p/24 its just perfect. Think about it. You can watch movies on SAT using 1080p/24. It also allows you to connect a PC and use PC resolutions like if a game forces a different output resolution than you are set to using Windows. The RS1u doesn't allow for many PC resolutions. I think the newer RS1x does however. Not sure but I see the RS2 does accept PC resolutions.

Ron
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post #199 of 736 Old 05-22-2008, 04:09 PM
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Ron, a very persuasive summary of the HDQ (and I presume the HDP)!
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post #200 of 736 Old 05-22-2008, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Ron, a very persuasive summary of the HDQ (and I presume the HDP)!

Absolutely! Just less inputs.
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post #201 of 736 Old 05-22-2008, 10:48 PM
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Speaking of inputs, why not keep it simple and convenient and put the VP between the receiver/pre/pro and the display?

That's what I'm planning to do with my HDP, which I haven't installed yet.

Is it because they botch conversion of video sources to HDMI?

My only video sources are HDDVD and BD, both HDMI, so that shouldn't be an issue for me, right?

Noah
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post #202 of 736 Old 05-23-2008, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Speaking of inputs, why not keep it simple and convenient and put the VP between the receiver/pre/pro and the display?

That's what I'm planning to do with my HDP, which I haven't installed yet.

Is it because they botch conversion of video sources to HDMI?

My only video sources are HDDVD and BD, both HDMI, so that shouldn't be an issue for me, right?

I run the VP and receiver in parallel. My receiver has switching, but I figured why run everything through another device when that could just screw things up? Some receivers are alleged to change colorspace, for instance. So, all my video sources are just run through the Vision and to the projector.

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post #203 of 736 Old 05-23-2008, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Ronomy View Post

I need to add that motion blur is much less noticable with my HDQ doing the deinterlacing. The HDQ has very smooth pans even in 1080p/60. And using 1080p/24 its just perfect. Think about it. You can watch movies on SAT using 1080p/24.

This is very true. I think that somehow, the implementation of the Gennum in the RS1 is the cause of the blur that some people see. Even at 1080p/60, motion is a lot better on the Vision than on the RS1 by itself. Movies at 1080p/24 are even better. Definitely no blur!

I still use a bit of the DNR on the RS1 itself when I need it, but overall, I am convinced that the Vision does a better job with image processing than the RS1 does by itself.

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post #204 of 736 Old 05-23-2008, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Speaking of inputs, why not keep it simple and convenient and put the VP between the receiver/pre/pro and the display?

That's what I'm planning to do with my HDP, which I haven't installed yet.

Is it because they botch conversion of video sources to HDMI?

My only video sources are HDDVD and BD, both HDMI, so that shouldn't be an issue for me, right?

The only issue I see with this is every source needs different geometry settings when using the HDQ/HDP. I guess the HDQ/HDP doesn't automatically adjust for perfect pixel maping. All you can do is try it.

I wouldn't use the AV receiver myself. Do as Lawguy does and run them parallel.

Ron
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post #205 of 736 Old 05-23-2008, 11:50 AM
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How do you run them parallel and retain the HDMI audio? I'm guessing a splitter of some sort. I'm only going to run HDMI from an A35 and a PS3 through the receiver into the HDP. The geometry on those should be the same (I think). I bought an HDMI switch and the HDP will go into one input while my xbox 360 is going into another. I'm doing it this way as the colors on games don't bother me at all and I'd rather not introduce any lag into my gaming. When football season rolls around and I start watching tv again, I'll run the cable/sat box into the HDP and send the audio via SPDIF to the receiver.

I finally got the theater back up and running after my move and installed a new bulb in the RS-1. Also have an HDP and a display LT unopened that I will be playing with this weekend. Should be a fun long weekend of experimentation ahead.

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post #206 of 736 Old 05-23-2008, 11:50 AM
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Then how do I get HDMI audio into the receiver?

Anyway, the receiver passes HDMI video just fine, looks the same as when I was running it directly to the pj.

Noah
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post #207 of 736 Old 05-23-2008, 12:07 PM
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Well for digital SAT I use the coaxial digital audio output and right now I use the same with my HDDVD player. I plan to get a Bluray player soon that can decode all the HD audio formats and then have it modified to add 3xSPDIF output to my Meridian audio processor.
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post #208 of 736 Old 05-27-2008, 10:28 AM
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I got to play with the HDP for a bit this weekend. I could get 1080p24 no problems with my PS3, but my A35 had major issues. With the player outputting 1080p24 into the lumagen, the picture was very odd. Almost like the framerate was 10fps. When I switched to output 1080i from the A35, the HDP would choke up pretty bad. Also, when outputting 1080p24 from my A35, the menu graphics on the HDP would get wavey. Anyway, I had issues with 1080p24 from the A35. Any idea what I can do to fix this?

Also interesting was the grayscale on my RS-1. Set to low color temp and natural profile, I had dE's of around 3 consistent across the grayscale (before adjustments). I was under the impression that natural profile and "middle" color temp was supposed to have the closest to D65. The bulb only had around 20 hours at that point.

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post #209 of 736 Old 05-27-2008, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

I got to play with the HDP for a bit this weekend. I could get 1080p24 no problems with my PS3, but my A35 had major issues. With the player outputting 1080p24 into the lumagen, the picture was very odd. Almost like the framerate was 10fps. When I switched to output 1080i from the A35, the HDP would choke up pretty bad. Also, when outputting 1080p24 from my A35, the menu graphics on the HDP would get wavey. Anyway, I had issues with 1080p24 from the A35. Any idea what I can do to fix this?

Also interesting was the grayscale on my RS-1. Set to low color temp and natural profile, I had dE's of around 3 consistent across the grayscale (before adjustments). I was under the impression that natural profile and "middle" color temp was supposed to have the closest to D65. The bulb only had around 20 hours at that point.

When my HTPC outputs 1080p/24 and my Lumagen outputs 1080p/24 AND I have the Lumagen's menu engaged, I get the same problems that you do. But, once I close the Lumagen's menu, everything returns to normal.

I don't think that 1080i in/1080p/24 out works at all over DVI, but I think it works over component. With 1080i inputs, I output 1080p/60.

Watch how your grayscale changes as your lamp ages.

Did you play with gamma yet at all?

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post #210 of 736 Old 05-27-2008, 11:56 AM
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To be honest, I spent so much time trying to get the A35 to work with 1080p24, I didn't get the chance to mess with the HDP's grayscale or gamma adjustments. My gamma was very low (below 2) according to HCFR though. How accurate is HCFR's measurement of gamma? Is it using the correct calculation? Both Gregr and cine4home calculated gamma of around 2-2.1. I'm not sure why mine is so low.

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