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#1 ·
Wheres the love. I dont see an owners thread. After recently getting a 150 bundle, all i can say is im in heaven. With pandora, rhapsody and the music on my computer , its music nirvana. i think im going to buy another bundle for another powered unit for the patio and another non powered unit for the theater.




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#152 ·
I think everyone agrees that an outboard DAC can improve the sound of a Sonos ZP-80 or ZP-90. Mods are a little more controversial.


I am also wondering about modifications like Cullen or Empirical Audio's Pace Car.


There seems to be a few main issues addressed by either or both;


1) Jitter


2) Power Supply


3) Upsampling


There have been many unsubstantiated claims that the Sonos units introduce high emounts of jitter. To my understanding, Stereophile sent the unit out to be tested and the results showed that the Sonos units actually exhibit very low jitter.


Personally, I am not clear on whether the jitter reduction claimed by the modders is really lower than an unmodified Sonos unit.


I believe both modifications address the Power Supply, but a study of the advertising reveals very little before and after info that isn't purely anecdotal.


I am also not sure how upsampling would improve the signal. My understanding is that it is generally believed by audiophiles -- I include myself here -- want to keep the original signal as pure and unprocessed as possible, so I am not sure what upsampling would add and -- again -- a study of the advertising reveals very little in the way of facts; no white papers, nothing.


A search of the web reveals very few actual testimonials from owners using these mods, so they do not seem to be in widespread use.
 
#153 ·
Hi Guys. I'm considering a Sonos system and I need a recommendation please. One of my zones will be out near my pool. I'm probably going to go with the new Sonos factory touchscreen controller indoors, but I need a recommendation for my outdoor controller.

Option 1: Old Sonos controller (CR100?)

I spoke with Sonos and they said their newer touchscreen controller is definitely not waterproof, or even splash proof for that matter. They did confirm that the older controller is sealed and splashproof. Sonos says they still have inventory of the old controller available for sale, or I could pick one up on an auction site, etc. Seems like they can be had in the $200-$250 range with charging cradle.

Option 2: Ipod Touch with Otterbox waterproof case

It looks like the Otterbox for the Ipod Touch is the real deal: http://cell-phones.toptenreviews.com...pod-touch.html An 8GB touch with the Otterbox would be roughly the same price ($229 + $40).


If I went with the touch, it seems like I'd be getting more for the money because I could use it to watch movies while traveling, and use it as a regular ipod for audio (although this is not critical as I have Nano and Shuffle for working out, running, etc.). However, the Sonos controller would only be good for controlling the system...nothing else.


Which would you recommend and why? I'm concerned that the touch will not react as quickly, that the Sonos application on the touch is not as intuitive, etc. Please give me your thoughts. Any reason not to just go with the touch and waterproof case? Thanks for the help gents.
 
#155 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsbeck /forum/post/16957681


1) Jitter


2) Power Supply


3) Upsampling
1) Jitter - irrelevant, if you can hear any effect of jitter, something is broke... but if you are a Jitter True Believer just use a DAC that re-clocks the incoming signal... all your jitter will be gone... nothing lost...


2) Power Supply
- in the DAC it is important... in the ZP80/90 it's a non-issue... Power supplies only matter to Analog, and even there, their effects can be minimized through proper design techniques... if a noisy supply is able to effect the digital side, there is something horribly wrong with it and it needs to be replaced before it explodes...

3) Upsampling - why? it wont add anything, at best it wont make it any worse...
 
#156 ·
Hello All,

I am installing a new 3 zone system in my house. I have everything wired. One zone will be a 5.1 surround the 2nd zone 2 speakers and the last zone will be a 4 speaker set up outside. Does Sonos have the ability to be connected to my reciever and play different music in the three different zones. If not what would you suggest.
 
#159 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by panther63 /forum/post/16971138


I have 3 different areas in my home I would like to listen to music. Can sonos help me listen to 3 different stations at the same. Sorry for the confusion.

Yes it can. And if your AVR can do 5 speaker stereo, you could play your 2 channel sonos music to all 5 speakers, if you wish...
 
#160 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by panther63 /forum/post/16971138


I have 3 different areas in my home I would like to listen to music. Can sonos help me listen to 3 different stations at the same. Sorry for the confusion.

Sonos can help you listen to the same music in all three zones or different music in each zone and you can control which music in which zone and how loud wirelessly with a hand held controller or from the desktop of your wireless laptop or desktop computer.


You can use the amplifier section of your receiver, Sonos zone players with built in amps or you can use dedicated outboard amps. You can also feed the digital signal to your receiver and have your receiver turn it into 5.1 multichannel using pro-logic and other such codecs.


If you want to listen to 11 channels of music simultaneously, you'll need 11 channels of amplification.


There are Sonos zone players with two channel amplifiers built in and there are Sonos zone players without amplifiers. You'll need to decide which route you want to take.
 
#161 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by panther63 /forum/post/16971138


I have 3 different areas in my home I would like to listen to music. Can sonos help me listen to 3 different stations at the same. Sorry for the confusion.

Sonos is capable of playing different music, or the same music, or any combination thereof, in up to 32 different "Zones" in your home. Each Zone is capable of playing music from your personal library, or content from various online sources (Rhapsody, Napster, Last.FM, Sirius, internet radio, Podcasts, etc). Each Zone can play independently, or it can be linked to other Zone(s) and played in perfect sync all over the house. You can play this content via your own receiver/amplification (ZP90) or through speakers using Sonos's amplified player (ZP120). All this can be controlled via up to 32 of the following: The new touchscreen CR200 controller, the free Desktop Controller, or your iPhone/Touch via the free Sonos iPhone app.
 
#163 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by panther63 /forum/post/16976456


So I would need a ZP90 plugged into my reciever to get the three zones working independently. What type of reciever would you suggest for this set up.

1 ZP90 plugged into a receiver = 1 zone.. what you doing for the other zones? just using two ZP120's?


as far as what receiver would I suggest? if I was going to buy a receiver, it would have to be the Lexicon RV-5 I really like the L7 codec...


but really, any receiver will be fine... you can usually get refurb HK's cheap...
 
#165 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by panther63 /forum/post/16976456


So I would need a ZP90 plugged into my reciever to get the three zones working independently. What type of reciever would you suggest for this set up.

If you want to control three different zones, you will need at least three different zone players.


In the one zone where you want surround sound, I would suggest a ZP-90, which comes without internal amplifiers. You will use either the RCA or Toslink digital output from the ZP-90 and connect it to the corresponding digital input of your receiver. Your receiver will need to either always be on or you will need to turn it on either manually or through some other remote system -- the Sonos cannot manage that.


Your receiver has nothing, zero, zip, nada, zilch to do with managing three zones.


Your Sonos system will make it possible for you to control three zones.


In your other two zones, you will need either a ZP-120 Sonos Zone Player with internal amplifier, or you will need ZP-90's + outboard amplification.
 
#166 ·
5.1 Surround Set-up.....


ZP-90 + Receiver + 5 speakers + Sub-woofer

4 Speaker zone...


Either:


ZP-120 + 4 speakers


Or...


ZP-90 + 4 channels of amplification + 4 speakers

Two speaker zone...


Either


ZP-120 + two speakers...


Or...


ZP-90 + two channels of amplification + two speakers.


You'd be able to link two or all three zones together and play the same music in all of the linked zones or different music in each zone. You'd only need the Sonos controller -- whatever you pick -- to control two of the zones, but you'd need the Sonos remote plus either manual control of the receiver or some way to remotely control the receiver, too, in order to run the surround set-up. Once you set the receiver, you could then control the choice of music (and volume) from the Sonos controller.
 
#167 ·
just ordered the bu 250 after selling my original controller. will be posting a high res pic of it like i did in the first post. im still absolutely amazed by this system everytime i use it.


i recenetly switched from rhapsody to napster though since now instead of 14 a month for rhapsody streaming i get napster streaming plsu 5 free songs a month....basically its like buying 4 new songs a month and getting free use of napster
 
#170 ·
I jumped in feet first purchasing:

1- BU250 bundle

6- ZP120's


All wired to inceiling Martin Logan

Helos20's which I already have 12 sitting here waiting for install. I have an additional Helos20 incase I want to add a zone to the Kitchen in the future. As it is now the livingroom and kitchen are open to each other.


Zones:

Zone 1 Master Bedroom; 1- ZP120; 2- Helos20

Zone 2 Master Bath; 1- ZP120; 1- Helos20

Zone 3 Hall Bath; 1- ZP120; 1- Helos20

Zone 4 Bedroom 2; 1- ZP120; 1- Helos20

Zone 5 Bedroom 3; 1- ZP120; 1- Helos20

Zone 6 Living Room; 1- ZP90; Denon 4810; 5-Helos20

Zone 7 Garage; 1- ZP120; 2- Helos20

Will Add the following at a later date:

Zone 8 Patio; 1- ZP120; 2- Speakercraft OE8 One

Zone 9 Hot Tub; 1- ZP120; 2- Speakercraft OE8 One


Everything will be installed in a central AV closet, if I have enough room in there since all the HT equipment is in this closet. Alternate location will be in the garage attic with all the ZP120's installed in a Mid-Atlantic WRP-8 or SBX wall mount cabinet.
 
#171 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsbeck /forum/post/16957681


I think everyone agrees that an outboard DAC can improve the sound of a Sonos ZP-80 or ZP-90. Mods are a little more controversial.


I am also wondering about modifications like Cullen or Empirical Audio's Pace Car.


There seems to be a few main issues addressed by either or both;


1) Jitter


2) Power Supply


3) Upsampling


There have been many unsubstantiated claims that the Sonos units introduce high emounts of jitter. To my understanding, Stereophile sent the unit out to be tested and the results showed that the Sonos units actually exhibit very low jitter.


Personally, I am not clear on whether the jitter reduction claimed by the modders is really lower than an unmodified Sonos unit.


I believe both modifications address the Power Supply, but a study of the advertising reveals very little before and after info that isn't purely anecdotal.


I am also not sure how upsampling would improve the signal. My understanding is that it is generally believed by audiophiles -- I include myself here -- want to keep the original signal as pure and unprocessed as possible, so I am not sure what upsampling would add and -- again -- a study of the advertising reveals very little in the way of facts; no white papers, nothing.


A search of the web reveals very few actual testimonials from owners using these mods, so they do not seem to be in widespread use.

A good DAC can make all the difference.


The problem with the CD standard is that sampling is at 44.1kHz which

means sampling artifacts appear at 22.05kHz. CD players must implement

a very sharp cutoff filter such that the output is about 100dB below full scale

@22.05 kHz . The worst case is the audio is fullscale at 20kHz and

the filter must ensure the aliasing noise is 100dB below this @22.05kHz.


The task is split between the digital filter before the DAC and the analog

filter after. In the digital domain the audio data is a stream of numbers

and the filter is a long mathematical equation with lots of coefficients.

These are grouped into filter taps and each tap is a processing stage.

The steeper the filter the more taps are required and it can get

expensive


One way to reduce the steepness of the filter is to move the sampling

artifacts out to a higher frequency significantly above 20kHz. The

cheapest way is to resample the data stream. In the case of 96kHz

this moves the aliasing artifacts to 48kHz and allows a very significant

reduction of the slope (100db over 2.2kHz vs 100db over 28kHz, about

1 order of magnitude)


If we were to resample, the steepness and hence complexity of the

digital filter downstream is reduced as there is less processing to do.

However this has to be traded off against the complexity of implementing the

resampling.


So upsampling is another method to dealing with the problem of the

low sampling frequency specified by the CD standard.


As to whether upsampling will bring additional sonic benefits, that

depends on the downstream DAC's ability to perform the filtering

at 44.1kHz with a minimal of artifacts. If it does a good

job upsampling is not needed.


The newer DACs that can operate at higher sampling rates typically

optimize their digital filters for the higher sample rates. In addition

the Delta-Sigma conversion method is quite commonly used

It works better (lowerinband noise) if the converter is clocked at

a higher frequency, and this frequency is proportional to

the sampling rate.


My ZP90 is connected to an Onkyo 875. It uses the TI/BB PCM1796,

a great DAC if a high sample rate is used.

This gives barely passable 44.1kHz performance. I use a variant

of the Monarchy DIP which resamples to 96kHz, the performance

changes with it.


I can get equivalent performance with a Goldmund DA96 without

resampling. This DAC has custom digital and analog filters
 
#172 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by boblopes /forum/post/16953459


Anyone heard, auditioned or owns a DAC from Tube Audio Design with their Sonos gear? I'm interested specifically with the TADAC or PreDAC products. I am looking to use this to bypass my HT pre/pro and connect directly with my amp with one of my ZP80's.


I've read about the Cullen modified zp's and PS DACs, not sure which would be the better route to go OR if I would even notice any change...


Thoughts?


Thanks!

I went through exactly the same debate about 6 months back and researched it pretty extensively (on the net). If you have followed any of the Zissou-led threads elsewhere on AVS, you will see a fair amount of writing on the TADAC and its virtues (search for Zissou and TADAC). I have also posted some pretty detailed observations


I finally ordered a TADAC - and also almost ordered a Cullen mod or a PaceCar JUST to compare for my own ears and then sanity prevailed. I love audiophile sound, but am not a devoted tester like others on this forum! I had told myself that I would order a Cullen mod etc if I could still hear differences between Sonos and a CD player. I can't so I am sticking with the TADAC


My observations:

a) The difference of adding an outboard DAC to Sonos is sublime, in a good audio system (i.e. good speakers). I can easily A/B test Sonos solo or Sonos using my Parasound Halo processor's DACS or Sonos using my B&K processors DACs or Sonos using the TADAC. There is diffference between each of them. Biggest difference is with TADAC in the chain. the TADAC, quite simply put, is by far the biggest $1,000 upgrade I have EVER installed in my system (and I've spent $20-30k, maybe more, on gear in the last 4-5 years)

b) The TADAC is a DAC and also a 2-channel pre-amp, which I love. So I can use it as a 2 channel pre-amp and entirely by-pass the Parasound Halo - which is what I do whenever I listen to music. I can also use it as a 2-ch preamp when watching TV and the sound is BY FAR better than my 7 channel $4,000 Parasound Halo (except of course that you dont get 7 channel sound, which I am coming to believe is overrated anyway). Parasound (and other audiophile processors I have owned and heard) goes to a lot of effort to try and deliver high quality, audiophile 2-ch sound - but the end result is so far inferior to the TADAC it doesnt event merit comparison

c) TADAC has a Tube-based DAC/pre-pro which appeals to me for reasons i wont get into. I have AB-ed it with the DACs in parasound/B&K processors but not versus any of the other terrific standalone DACs. But its the only affordable Tube-based DAC and I believe the sound is quite different. is the sound better? You will have to be the judge (I think it is)

d) TADAC is not without disadvantages. Some will say it looks Fugly. Its remote can be finicky. I have not managed to seamlessly integrate the remote into my universal remote. But I have not had any other use-ability issues


So i am very content using Sonos+TADAC in my system. I cannot now hear the difference (at all) between playing a CD or playing through Sonos+TADAC and the sound is sublime. For 2-channel, the sound is literally going from Sonos to the TADAC to my Martin Logan speakers and I love the simplicity of that. For multi-channel sound, it goes from Sonos to my Parasound.


hope that helps
 
#175 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgatie /forum/post/17593444


Just double up on the wires. For the two right speakers, put two positive leads into the positive post and two negative leads in the negative post. Same for the two left speakers. Just make sure the speakers are rated for 8 Ohms. You can also attach the leads to banana plugs (two per plug), then pry off the caps on the posts and plug the banana plugs in.

OK, this had me confused, but then I read that the ZP120 supports 4 ohm speakers...and 2 - 8 Ohm speakers is just like 1 - 4 Ohm.



I think this is from Sonos support...
Quote:
The Sonos ZonePlayers can support any speaker impedance between 4 and 16 Ohms so it is possible to wire two 8 Ohm speakers in parallel (resulting in a total impedance of 4 Ohm's). Sonos does not recommend wiring speakers in series as it will result in poor sound quality.

*This applies to the amplified ZP120 and ZP100 only.
 
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