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post #1 of 26 Old 08-26-2009, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I have done some preliminary AVS searches and can't find a digital-analog conversion (DAC) frequently asked questions (FAQ) thread.

Is there a DAC FAQ?

I've recenly gotten interested in DACs because of the proposed Tweak City Audio (TCA) DAC MAN (Link, which looks like is on hold).

I also noticed the proposed Emotiva DAC - Link.


My application is an office-based computer laptop (HP w/ Core2 CPU, MS XP Pro, SoundMAX Integrated Digitial HD Audio).
I currently have a headphone out jack to RCA jacks to an Emotiva UPA-2 amplifier.
Volume is controlled by computer.

Software: Pandora online
I have MP3's stored on an external hard drive, but usually just run Pandora.

Thanks.

Mike
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post #2 of 26 Old 08-26-2009, 12:22 PM
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Hey Mike,

not that I know of but here are a few dacs that have been getting a fair amount of press lately....


Music Fidelity V-DAC
plain packaging but big on sound...
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=MFVDAC

Music Hall DAC
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo...HDAC25.2%20SIL

Peachtree DAC and INtegrated Amp
http://www.avguide.com/review/playba...ted-ampusb-dac

Some of these are also head phone amps...

all 3 of these have been getting good press on the net and from TAS and Stereophile. I spent some time listening to the peachtree and want one badly....

Sean
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post #3 of 26 Old 08-26-2009, 12:29 PM
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Now dont laugh but I use a cheapo creative Labs external USB sound card on my work computer which is by no means an audiophile DAC but its way way way better than using the noise ridden internal laptop dac and output section connnected to my Senheiser HD590's.....

super cheap....


Here's the latest model of something like what I have....

http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Labs-...1311306&sr=8-1

I got mine on closeout for like $29.


I honestly think it sounds pretty good and big step up from the noisy analog outs that most all computers have....

Sean
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post #4 of 26 Old 08-26-2009, 01:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean_w_smith View Post

Now dont laugh but I use a cheapo creative Labs external USB sound card on my work computer which is by no means an audiophile DAC but its way way way better than using the noise ridden internal laptop dac and output section connnected to my Senheiser HD590's.....

super cheap....


Here's the latest model of something like what I have....

http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Labs-SB1090-Blaster-Surround/dp/B0017QQQAE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1251311306&sr=8-1

I got mine on closeout for like $29.


I honestly think it sounds pretty good and big step up from the noisy analog outs that most all computers have....

Sean

Sean -

Thanks.
It might be fun to try as a first step to tip my toes into the DAC world.
I also looked at the HRT Streamer ($99) and Streamer+ ($299).
Link
Review



Mike
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post #5 of 26 Old 08-26-2009, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean_w_smith View Post

Hey Mike,

not that I know of but here are a few dacs that have been getting a fair amount of press lately....


Music Fidelity V-DAC
plain packaging but big on sound...
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=MFVDAC

Music Hall DAC
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo...HDAC25.2%20SIL

Peachtree DAC and INtegrated Amp
http://www.avguide.com/review/playba...ted-ampusb-dac

Some of these are also head phone amps...

all 3 of these have been getting good press on the net and from TAS and Stereophile. I spent some time listening to the peachtree and want one badly....

Sean

I just got AA in the mail.
I'm looking at your links now.



Looks nice.
Reading the PS Audio stuff on their $3K DAC it sounds like it is nice to have some adjustability of upsampling amounts, etc.

A vol control would mean I don't necessarily need a pre-amp.
(*EDIT*: Unless the volume control is only for the headphone output -- which it sounds like it is from the Stereophile Aug 2009 p.18 notes)

Mike
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post #6 of 26 Old 08-26-2009, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

Sean -

Thanks.
It might be fun to try as a first step to tip my toes into the DAC world.
I also looked at the HRT Streamer ($99) and Streamer+ ($299).
Link
Review



Mike

Clearly there are a lot of budget choices out there.... It just depends on budget and whether you want multiple inputs,volume control, head phone amp and power amp integrated into your DAC solution....

I do have another one of these creative soundblaster Live's driving a TCA Gizmo connected to some AV123 ELT 525M's.... it sounds pretty good for a computer rig... Like I said... I like the all in one nature of the peachtree solution. THe music hall looks very attactive.. dunno if the stereophile reviews are online for all 3 of the ones I mentioned but they all received very positive reviews....

Sean
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post #7 of 26 Old 08-26-2009, 07:25 PM
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Mike,

Good to hear from a fellow badger. I two have recently become interested in DACs and am currently looking a PS Audio model, the Digital Link iii.

A good source for DAC info comes from www.ecoustics.com

They post the audio / video magazine reviews and articles, usually within a month or two of the magazines arrival at the newstand. There is a DAC folder under the Home Audio section. The rest is pretty intuitive.

Max
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post #8 of 26 Old 08-26-2009, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean_w_smith View Post

Clearly there are a lot of budget choices out there.... It just depends on budget and whether you want multiple inputs,volume control, head phone amp and power amp integrated into your DAC solution....

I do have another one of these creative soundblaster Live's driving a TCA Gizmo connected to some AV123 ELT 525M's.... it sounds pretty good for a computer rig... Like I said... I like the all in one nature of the peachtree solution. THe music hall looks very attactive.. dunno if the stereophile reviews are online for all 3 of the ones I mentioned but they all received very positive reviews....

Sean

I also have a computer -> amp -> 525M setup at work.
The amp is currently an Emotiva UPA-2, but I have a Gizmo v1.0M coming in the mail.
I will likely give that one away though.

Mike
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post #9 of 26 Old 08-27-2009, 06:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxfli View Post

Mike,

Good to hear from a fellow badger. I two have recently become interested in DACs and am currently looking a PS Audio model, the Digital Link iii.

A good source for DAC info comes from www.ecoustics.com

They post the audio / video magazine reviews and articles, usually within a month or two of the magazines arrival at the newstand. There is a DAC folder under the Home Audio section. The rest is pretty intuitive.

Max

Thanks.
I'll check out that link.
Do you live in WI now?

Mike
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post #10 of 26 Old 08-27-2009, 09:30 AM
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Mike,

No, I live in AZ now and will be at the Green Bay / Cardinal game Friday. I grew up in WI, but haven't lived there in several years.

The ecoustics site also has some good articles on what DACs do and don't do that are worth looking at.

Max
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post #11 of 26 Old 08-27-2009, 03:57 PM
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If your source is Pandora (which I thought was low bitrate MP3 - I use it occasionally and it SOUNDS pretty bit-starved) then I would lean towards the low end price on a DAC.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to spend $1000 on a system for listening to MP3s or other compressed sources.

- Gordon

We don"t see things as they are, we see things as we are. - Anais Nin
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post #12 of 26 Old 08-27-2009, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxfli View Post

Mike,

No, I live in AZ now and will be at the Green Bay / Cardinal game Friday. I grew up in WI, but haven't lived there in several years.

The ecoustics site also has some good articles on what DACs do and don't do that are worth looking at.

Max

Cool.
I'm from MN, but went to UW-Mad, so the Vikes/Packer games should be fun to watch this year.

Still reading on the DACs.
How about Perpetual Technology DACs?
eg - "PT P-3A w/ Monolithic Audio upgrade power supply"

Mike
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post #13 of 26 Old 08-27-2009, 08:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdc View Post

If your source is Pandora (which I thought was low bitrate MP3 - I use it occasionally and it SOUNDS pretty bit-starved) then I would lean towards the low end price on a DAC.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to spend $1000 on a system for listening to MP3s or other compressed sources.

Good question and comments!


A cursory search on the Pandora site didn't give a lot of info on kbs rate.
However, I have the "Pandora One" (ie, paid account) and the pull down for that shows a selection for:

- High Quality - 192 kbps
(The best music quality we offer.)

- Normal Quality
(You may want to select this quality for slower internet connections or high-traffic corporate networks.)


Does that change anything?
I realize 192 kbps is not FLAC, etc, but Pandora sounds pretty good to me -- at least for my office system.

Another way of putting it.
For MP3's or Pandora, where is the DAC best value or point of limiting returns?
It sounds like there is likely some value in:
- not using the laptop headphone out and using the USB out
- not using the integrated audio DAC in a laptop (?? S/N ~81 I read somewhere -- ASUS link)

So will a lower priced (eg $300) DAC give you a huge benefit that will take a lot more to get better for those sources?

I may bring in an external HD with FLAC, etc. files in the future but your comments were well taken.

Thanks again,

Mike
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post #14 of 26 Old 08-28-2009, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdc View Post

If your source is Pandora (which I thought was low bitrate MP3 - I use it occasionally and it SOUNDS pretty bit-starved) then I would lean towards the low end price on a DAC.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to spend $1000 on a system for listening to MP3s or other compressed sources.

I was recently re-reading an article in Aug 2009 Stereophile - pp.18-20 by Sam Tellig on the Music Hall dac25.2.

While the comments are hardly decisive, or technical, I was wonering what people thought:


"The dac25.2 sounded especially swell with Internet radio." (p.19)

"The dac25.2 won me over for the fine way it handled the Internet radio via USB, for its combination of features for $599, and for the way it placed tubes -- er, tube (the 6922 is a double triode) -- in the signal path. (p.19)

"...I enjoyed sweet, full-bodied, nonfatiguing Internet-radio sound."


So, are DACs more important for very high quality digital sources or for lower quality sources?

I think gdc's initial comments reminded me of that even spending a lot of money to polish (DAC process) a turd (low quality content), you still have a turd.
It seems that casual and professional reviews of DACs are varied in the effect seen on sources such as internet radio.

Does it matter if the source is the "bit starved" Pandora or the Pandora One with 192 kbps?

gdc - again, thanks for your comments.

Mike
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post #15 of 26 Old 08-28-2009, 01:55 PM
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My opinion is that you can do better than a laptop's built-in DAC for listening to 192KHz MP3s. Those chips cost ~ 10 cents last time I heard. But $1000? Most of that will be wasted.

The other thing to consider - is the rest of the system up to the same level? Are your speakers decent or el cheapo?

The Stereophile reviewer made me laugh. Internet radio through tubes! In another age it would have been "listening to the FM broadcast through the tube stage imparted a spacious lifelike quality that made me feel I was in the studio with the band as they were recording." What a shameless shill.

- Gordon

We don"t see things as they are, we see things as we are. - Anais Nin
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post #16 of 26 Old 08-30-2009, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdc View Post

My opinion is that you can do better than a laptop's built-in DAC for listening to 192KHz MP3s. Those chips cost ~ 10 cents last time I heard. But $1000? Most of that will be wasted.

The other thing to consider - is the rest of the system up to the same level? Are your speakers decent or el cheapo?

The Stereophile reviewer made me laugh. Internet radio through tubes! In another age it would have been "listening to the FM broadcast through the tube stage imparted a spacious lifelike quality that made me feel I was in the studio with the band as they were recording." What a shameless shill.

gdc -

Thanks for the input.

The current office system (also listed in post #1 of my sig)..

Source: HP laptop -> headphone jack out -> RCA -> amp
Amp: Emotiva UPA-2
Speakers: av123 ELT525M

So, not that high end.

If I have room in my new office (moving end of fall/winter) I was thinking of matching my amp with this (not yet produced) Emotiva XDC-1 DAC:




Mike
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post #17 of 26 Old 08-30-2009, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
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In reading about DACs the word jitter comes up a lot.

I looked at some info on jitter (eg Wikipedia) and I'm wondering...

What does jitter sound like?


I know there are some websites that you can listen to music recorded at various bit rates (or you can rip the same song yourself to compare).

Is there anything similar to listen to what jitter sounds like at various levels?
I realize that going from file -> computer -> speakers may introduce it's own errors, but just to get a handle on what something really bad sounds like.


Mike

*EDIT*

Links on "What does jitter sound like":
- Altmann, Charles - Text and scope shots - link
- Audiogon thread and answers - link
--- Quote: "At its worst, jitter is revealed as a hard, flat, fatiguing glare across the midrange & treble.
A low-jitter clock relieves strain and adds suppleness & body.
Further reductions in jitter get closer to analog-like treble delicacy, tighter bass control, and overall ease."
- Computer Audio Asylum thread - link
--- Quote (John Swenson) (bold added):
"In general I find jitter to cause a loss in "inner detail" which usually relates to a "flatter" sound. It looses the "liveness", it becomes boring. Sometimes I find jitter also effects bass significantly. This is strange because I would expect high frequencies to be more susceptible, but I frequently hear a significant improvement in bass articulation when decreasing jitter.

Its hard to listen to a piece of gear and say "thats got high jitter" just by listening, because many other things can cause similar sonic effects. By building my own gear I've been able to do quite a few tests where I can hold everything equal except change jitter and can definately hear major improvements in sound by lowering jitter. But frequently similar changes can be had (for example) by upgrading the power supply of the preamp.

Another issue is all jitter is not the same. The spectrum has a lot to do with it. I have one receiver with 200 ps of jitter that sounds significantly better than another with 50ps, BUT the spectrum is radically different between them. Thus just picking the lowest published "jitter number" will not gurantee the best sound. Unfortunately you still have to listen!

I also have large misgivings about any system going through (the never to be sufficiently damned) S/PDIF interface. This is so frought with peril that its almost impossible to get a really good clock out the other end. This makes me very suspicious of "jitter reduction boxes" that output S/PDIF, they STILL have to go over the interface. Yes if the "transport" is really bad they can help, but its never going to get really good.

There are a few DACs that actually do an extremely good job of cleaning up the clock from a S/PDIF interface, but they are very few and far between. These are the only ones I would consider using with S/PDIF. And even then the jitter from the recovered clock has a tendancy to make itself heard through mechanisms such as ground noise and supply contamination, it takes a lot of work to keep it out of the final result.

John S. "
- Computer Audiophile thread - link
- Stereophile Oct 1993 artcle By Rémy Fourré - link
- Stereophile test CD # 2 contains an example of jitter
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post #18 of 26 Old 10-13-2009, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI
Hmmm...

Just saw this thread on a planned Emotiva DAC.



Hmmm...


Mike


Addendums:
- estimated cost - $300 - link
- 1 RU high

Per Dann G. @ Emotiva:
LINK

"We are hoping to have it by the end of the year, but that is not a promise."

So, I think I'll see what they offer before purchasing a DAC.
Very cool.

Mike
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post #19 of 26 Old 10-13-2009, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Just got my Stereophile Nov 2009 in the mail today.
(I believe the electronic version is embargoed for a month or two after the print version is out.)

"HRT Music Strearmer+: USB D/A Converter" by Art Dudley
pp. 109-121.

MS vs. MS+
MS = $99, S/N: 86 dB, A-weighted
MS+ = $299, S/N: 107 dB, A-weighted
p. 120
"In a general way, the Music Steamer sounded smaller, less grand, and decidely less refined."

Conclusions
p. 121
"Now for an unabashedly subjective conclusion. Buy it."


Measurements" comments:
by John Atkinson
p. 119
- "...high levels of jitter..." 700 ps peak-peak for MS+ and 720 ps for MS
- "The noise floor [in the MS]...is about 8dB higher than that of the Music Streamer+..."
- "...neither offers outstanding measured performance...low prices...intended to offer enough of what is possible from computer-based audio to act as high end starting points."
- "...it is possible that playing back 24-bit files will result in worse sound than from 16-bit files."


Questions not addressed in article:
- how much better than a computers internal DAC?
- comparisons to other $300 range DACs?


Mike


HRT MS


HRT MS+
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post #20 of 26 Old 12-16-2010, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Old thread, but in case people were interested I started a DAC FAQ here:
Link


Mike
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post #21 of 26 Old 12-16-2010, 01:09 PM
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whatever you linked to is blocked :O

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post #22 of 26 Old 12-16-2010, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

Old thread, but in case people were interested I started a DAC FAQ here:
Link


Mike

Quote:
Originally Posted by its phillip View Post

whatever you linked to is blocked :O

How about...

http://www.X.com/showtopic.php?tid/145110/

Where X = home_theater_spot (except without underlines!)
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post #23 of 26 Old 12-16-2010, 07:13 PM
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Mike_WI,
I might presume thatbthe mock up from Emotiva of the XDC you sent was realized as the real XDA-1 now for sale (or reserve) on the Emotiva site now.
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post #24 of 26 Old 12-16-2010, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alatham View Post

Mike_WI,
I might presume thatbthe mock up from Emotiva of the XDC you sent was realized as the real XDA-1 now for sale (or reserve) on the Emotiva site now.

It is available for order at the Emotiva site:
http://emotiva.com/xda1.shtm

There are comments in the Emotiva forum and here:
http://www.chasehometheater.com/foru...ead.php?t=2575

Good luck...

Mike
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post #25 of 26 Old 02-18-2011, 06:06 AM
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I started a thread for the XDA-1 here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post20024918

please take the high road in every post
if you see a problematic post, please do not quote it or respond to it: report it to the mods to handle
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