Dune HD Base 3.0 and Prime 3.0 on Sigma 8642 in Q4 2009 - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 6075 Old 11-15-2009, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Killroy View Post

My mistake... HDi was careful about the wording of what the BD drives actually were so here is his quote:

Oh...gotcha now. Too bad, I hope the internal drives don't start dropping out after 30-90 days. Time will tell...being optimistic.
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post #272 of 6075 Old 11-16-2009, 04:18 AM
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First, thank you Cimerr@ for your emails with questions regarding FLAC playback. Since I am also an audiophile I realized you brought up a very good question that I had to know the answer to as well. Here are my findings:

I brought the Prime 3.0 sample unit to a recording studio to test its audio capabilities. We tried 16-bit/44.1k, 24-bit/44.1k, 24-bit/96k, & 24-bit/192k files, both WAV & FLAC. I had a choice of two digital converters. SSL and Apogee. Since the SSL only went up to 24/96 I opted to connect the Dune Player to the Apogee converters that support up to 24/192. We used the coax spdif output for all tests.

Every file tested played perfectly. The Dune absolutely outputs 24-bit/96k from the coax spdif digital output when playing stereo 24-bit/96k WAV or FLAC files! It also played 24-bit/192k files fine but, the word clock on the Apogee Rosetta only read 96k. It would seem 192k files are down sampled to 96k through the spdif outputs. HDMI will pass 24-bit/192k x 8 channels no problem. Technically it's possible to pass 24-bit/192k out a spdif connection in stereo (coax or optical) but, there is not a lot of gear out there capable of handling this. Since the Dune Player is not an audiophile or videophile grade piece of equipment I am surprised by the results of our tests. The fact that it passes stereo 24-bit/96k FLAC through the spdif is pretty impressive. No down sampling to 48k or 44.1k like some other media players on the market

Notes: All files were played back from both a data CD and a USB thumb drive with no issues. The CD however did take a little longer to start playing the higher bit rate files since it had to spool up and cache the data.

So a Dune Player and a high end external DAC equals a nice music storage system for you audiophiles out there.




Arthur
DunePlayer.com
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post #273 of 6075 Old 11-16-2009, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opentoe View Post

Ok then, a Sony player.

Generic low price low quality drives are not Sony drives...
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post #274 of 6075 Old 11-16-2009, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArthurPower View Post

First, thank you Cimerr@ for your emails with questions regarding FLAC playback. Since I am also an audiophile I realized you brought up a very good question that I had to know the answer to as well. Here are my findings:

I brought the Prime 3.0 sample unit to a recording studio to test its audio capabilities. We tried 16-bit/44.1k, 24-bit/44.1k, 24-bit/96k, & 24-bit/192k files, both WAV & FLAC. I had a choice of two digital converters. SSL and Apogee. Since the SSL only went up to 24/96 I opted to connect the Dune Player to the Apogee converters that support up to 24/192. We used the coax spdif output for all tests.

Every file tested played perfectly. The Dune absolutely outputs 24-bit/96k from the coax spdif digital output when playing stereo 24-bit/96k WAV or FLAC files! It also played 24-bit/192k files fine but, the word clock on the Apogee Rosetta only read 96k. It would seem 192k files are down sampled to 96k through the spdif outputs. HDMI will pass 24-bit/192k x 8 channels no problem. Technically it's possible to pass 24-bit/192k out a spdif connection in stereo (coax or optical) but, there is not a lot of gear out there capable of handling this. Since the Dune Player is not an audiophile or videophile grade piece of equipment I am surprised by the results of our tests. The fact that it passes stereo 24-bit/96k FLAC through the spdif is pretty impressive. No down sampling to 48k or 44.1k like some other media players on the market

Notes: All files were played back from both a data CD and a USB thumb drive with no issues. The CD however did take a little longer to start playing the higher bit rate files since it had to spool up and cache the data.

So a Dune Player and a high end external DAC equals a nice music storage system for you audiophiles out there.




Arthur
DunePlayer.com

Hi Arthur,

Thanks for taking the time to do this. In the future would you be able to test pcm files that are 96khz/24 bit 6 channel over HDMI? You can get them from

itrax.com, HDtracks.com, or linnrecords.com.

All 3 have excellent audiophile recordings. I have used a Logitech Transporter as my audiophile digital streamer in the past with these types of recordings and wanted to see if similar results were possible. Thanks in advance.

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/sp.../3163&cl=us,en
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post #275 of 6075 Old 11-16-2009, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wiatrak View Post

Yeah, Dune has "more expensive" chip, but this higher price is for Macrovision only, so you don't be able to copy Blu-Ray disc on your old good VHS recorder! And also, without Macrovision you don't be able to watch hi-def BR discs on your good old 14" CRT, connected via composite video cable.

OMG, what a waste!!!

Just look at the specs of the chip (s):
http://www.sigmadesigns.com/Products...SMP8640_br.pdf

Unfortunately, due to the DMCA, such devices are no longer legal. On April 26, 2002, under section 1201k of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, no analog video recording devices may be manufactured that do not contain Automatic Gain Control circuitry. Additionally, on October 26 of this year, the sale, purchase, or manufacture of any device that disables Macrovision copy protection will be illegal under section 1201a of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act.
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post #276 of 6075 Old 11-16-2009, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArthurPower View Post

First, thank you Cimerr@ for your emails with questions regarding FLAC playback. Since I am also an audiophile I realized you brought up a very good question that I had to know the answer to as well. Here are my findings:

I brought the Prime 3.0 sample unit to a recording studio to test its audio capabilities. We tried 16-bit/44.1k, 24-bit/44.1k, 24-bit/96k, & 24-bit/192k files, both WAV & FLAC. I had a choice of two digital converters. SSL and Apogee. Since the SSL only went up to 24/96 I opted to connect the Dune Player to the Apogee converters that support up to 24/192. We used the coax spdif output for all tests.

Every file tested played perfectly. The Dune absolutely outputs 24-bit/96k from the coax spdif digital output when playing stereo 24-bit/96k WAV or FLAC files! It also played 24-bit/192k files fine but, the word clock on the Apogee Rosetta only read 96k. It would seem 192k files are down sampled to 96k through the spdif outputs. HDMI will pass 24-bit/192k x 8 channels no problem. Technically it's possible to pass 24-bit/192k out a spdif connection in stereo (coax or optical) but, there is not a lot of gear out there capable of handling this. Since the Dune Player is not an audiophile or videophile grade piece of equipment I am surprised by the results of our tests. The fact that it passes stereo 24-bit/96k FLAC through the spdif is pretty impressive. No down sampling to 48k or 44.1k like some other media players on the market

Notes: All files were played back from both a data CD and a USB thumb drive with no issues. The CD however did take a little longer to start playing the higher bit rate files since it had to spool up and cache the data.

So a Dune Player and a high end external DAC equals a nice music storage system for you audiophiles out there.




Arthur
DunePlayer.com


Arthur, ok no more teasing.
Seriously though, thanks for taking the time to test all this out. Will make a Dune owner even happier!
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post #277 of 6075 Old 11-16-2009, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike:SH View Post

Unfortunately, due to the DMCA, such devices are no longer legal. On April 26, 2002, under section 1201k of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, no analog video recording devices may be manufactured that do not contain Automatic Gain Control circuitry. Additionally, on October 26 of this year, the sale, purchase, or manufacture of any device that disables Macrovision copy protection will be illegal under section 1201a of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act.

That is correct. This is why the C200 (with the cheaper chip) will not let you watch retail DVD or blurays on composite analogue outputs (480p or less). Thereby complying. Why you'd want to is irrelevant.

HDMI/Component is all ok.
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post #278 of 6075 Old 11-17-2009, 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by mlknez View Post

Hi Arthur,

Thanks for taking the time to do this. In the future would you be able to test pcm files that are 96khz/24 bit 6 channel over HDMI? You can get them from

itrax.com, HDtracks.com, or linnrecords.com.

All 3 have excellent audiophile recordings. I have used a Logitech Transporter as my audiophile digital streamer in the past with these types of recordings and wanted to see if similar results were possible. Thanks in advance.

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/sp.../3163&cl=us,en

mlknez, I am currently listening to Jeff Beck - Live At Ronnie Scott's in DTS 5.1 surround 24-bit/44.1k from a WAV file through HDMI. I also tried a uncompressed PCM 5.1 surround WAV file through HDMI. Plays fine. I don't have any albums in PCM 5.1 @ 24-bit/96k to test at the moment however, the Dune will recognize and play a 6 channel 24-bit WAV or FLAC file and we know it is capable of 24-bit/192k from the HDMI output. So I think it's safe to say 5.1 channel 24-bit/96k PCM files should play fine as well through the HDMI output. If you have a sample file you can send me or post a link to, I will gladly test it for you.

I sell Logitech Squeezebox products and the Transporter is a really nice piece. Only stereo though as I'm sure you already know. I run Squeezebox Server on a Linux machine with my music collection and control it from my iPod Touch using the iPeng App. It's a pretty slick system.

If someone could make an App to control a Dune Player using an iPod Touch or iPhone as your remote control that would really be spectacular! I'm looking forward to native Z-Wave control enabled in a future firmware update for the Dune so I can at least use my Nevo S70 to control it.


Arthur
DunePlayer.com
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post #279 of 6075 Old 11-17-2009, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by lundman View Post

That is correct. This is why the C200 (with the cheaper chip) will not let you watch retail DVD or blurays on composite analogue outputs (480p or less). Thereby complying. Why you'd want to is irrelevant.

HDMI/Component is all ok.

You cant sell this legal in USA-this a problem?
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post #280 of 6075 Old 11-17-2009, 07:34 AM
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Is it possible to output all audio through HDMI while outputting video over the component outputs?

Is the prime capable of handling MLP such as DVD-Audio disks or DSD via SACD?

Thanks.
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post #281 of 6075 Old 11-17-2009, 09:21 AM
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Looking at the specifications of Dune Base 3.0 I see no USB slave port.

Does it mean that I can't transfer files to internal HDD directly from PC using USB cable? Only via LAN or external USB/eSata device is possible?



Thank you
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post #282 of 6075 Old 11-17-2009, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArthurPower View Post

mlknez, I am currently listening to Jeff Beck - Live At Ronnie Scott's in DTS 5.1 surround 24-bit/44.1k from a WAV file through HDMI. I also tried a uncompressed PCM 5.1 surround WAV file through HDMI. Plays fine. I don't have any albums in PCM 5.1 @ 24-bit/96k to test at the moment however, the Dune will recognize and play a 6 channel 24-bit WAV or FLAC file and we know it is capable of 24-bit/192k from the HDMI output. So I think it's safe to say 5.1 channel 24-bit/96k PCM files should play fine as well through the HDMI output. If you have a sample file you can send me or post a link to, I will gladly test it for you.

I sell Logitech Squeezebox products and the Transporter is a really nice piece. Only stereo though as I'm sure you already know. I run Squeezebox Server on a Linux machine with my music collection and control it from my iPod Touch using the iPeng App. It's a pretty slick system.

If someone could make an App to control a Dune Player using an iPod Touch or iPhone as your remote control that would really be spectacular! I'm looking forward to native Z-Wave control enabled in a future firmware update for the Dune so I can at least use my Nevo S70 to control it.


Arthur
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Arthur can you hook up an Esata drive to it and see if you can see it from your computer and copy/delete files from it? Also try USB? Ya know, since you have the player!


Thanks
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post #283 of 6075 Old 11-18-2009, 03:15 AM
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Opentoe & Alnov2002 Yes, you can access files from any drive connected to the Dune Player. This must be done over a network connection. The Dune Player's do NOT have a host USB port. So you can NOT connect a Dune Player directly to your PC using a USB cable. The USB ports are only for connecting external drives and a wifi adapter.

I have several drives connected to my Dune Player setup as network shares on my PC. You can access all the drives attached (both internal and external). I can read, write, and delete anything from the mapped share. You can also access all the drives by login into the anonymous FTP built into the Dune Player.

While testing all the network capabilities I discovered something very interesting. If a data disk (CD-R or DVD-R) is present in the optical drive on the Prime 3.0 you can access that as well over the network! You can even set it up as a network share on your PC! However, if an Audio CD, DVD Movie, or Blu-ray Movie is in the optical drive the share disappears (also disappears in the FTP as well). This does show however, that access to the internal Blu-ray drive in the Prime 3.0 is possible over a network but, again only if a data disk (not a commercial disk) is in the optical drive. From the opposite end, if you have a Blu-ray drive in your PC you can share that and then access it from the Dune Player's home page. Any disk type will be recognized, even commercial copy protected disks. This enables someone with a Base 3.0 to instantly watch a movie without having to copy it to a hard drive first.

Correction: Commercial CD's and DVD's can be played (streamed) from a networked optical drive in a PC without AnyDVD. Commercial Blu-ray disks can also be played (streamed) from a networked optical drive in a PC but, AnyDVD must be running. You can then browse the Blu-ray disk from the Dune Player and select the M2TS file and play it but, you can not access the main menu of the Blu-ray movie. This applies to the 3.0 models.

Keep in mind, the fastest way (by far) to transfer files to a drive connected to the Dune Player is to pull it out or disconnect it and plug it directly into your PC. I personally prefer to store my collections on a NAS or my PC and then stream everything over the network to the Dune Player.

mlknez Dune Players do not support SACD disks. Most DVD-A disks will and should play fine however. The file types vary on DVD-A disks, so I can not guarantee that they are all supported. There can be a combination of DTS and PCM tracks to choose from in both stereo and surround at various sample rates depending on the release. Since we have already affirmed the Dune Player will support just about any audio file type, I would conclude that most DVD-A disks should be supported. Please note though that HDI does not officially list DVD-A disk support.

I am still performing more tests and will report my findings soon. Thank you everyone for your intriguing and insightful questions.


Arthur
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post #284 of 6075 Old 11-18-2009, 09:02 AM
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Arthur, many thanks for that last post. The info about being able to play a commercial BD in a PC BD drive is icing on the cake.

Currently testing 3D with Sammy DLP, shutter glasses, and HTPC
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post #285 of 6075 Old 11-18-2009, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArthurPower View Post

...From the opposite end, if you have a Blu-ray drive in your PC you can share that and then access it from the Dune Player's home page. Any disk type will be recognized, even commercial copy protected disks. This enables someone with a Base 3.0 to instantly watch a movie without having to copy it to a hard drive first...

Have you install on that PC (connected with Dune) AnyDVD? Or you can share via network BD/DVD discs without this software, only by capabilities of Dune?

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post #286 of 6075 Old 11-18-2009, 09:20 AM
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Cristal clear.

My appreciation!
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post #287 of 6075 Old 11-18-2009, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArthurPower View Post

mlknez, I am currently listening to Jeff Beck - Live At Ronnie Scott's in DTS 5.1 surround 24-bit/44.1k from a WAV file through HDMI. I also tried a uncompressed PCM 5.1 surround WAV file through HDMI. Plays fine. I don't have any albums in PCM 5.1 @ 24-bit/96k to test at the moment however, the Dune will recognize and play a 6 channel 24-bit WAV or FLAC file and we know it is capable of 24-bit/192k from the HDMI output. So I think it's safe to say 5.1 channel 24-bit/96k PCM files should play fine as well through the HDMI output. If you have a sample file you can send me or post a link to, I will gladly test it for you.


Arthur
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hi arthur,
isn't it still a problem that sigma chipsets don't do gapless playback?
therefore, there will be gaps in playing back many recordings that really shouldn't be there.

if i'm not mistaken, the logitech stuff plays gaplessly (is that correct?)
but none of the network media players i've used (so far) can do so.
i can play 24/96, both stereo and 5.1, on my 863x based network media player though, with digital out 5.1 via hdmi and 24/96 stereo via spdif.

can the hdi do gapless audio playback? this is really the audio showstopper for me.
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post #288 of 6075 Old 11-18-2009, 07:13 PM
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How about the Blu-ray/"loader" drive noise (meaning accoustical buzzing noise) on Dune HD Prime 3.0, is it quite enough vs stand alone BD players such Oppo and etc? What is the brand fo BD drive on it?
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post #289 of 6075 Old 11-18-2009, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by bordo32 View Post

How about the Blu-ray/"loader" drive noise (meaning accoustical buzzing noise) on Dune HD Prime 3.0, is it quite enough vs stand alone BD players such Oppo and etc? What is the brand fo BD drive on it?

Its will be fixed soon with software.
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post #290 of 6075 Old 11-18-2009, 10:49 PM
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At least this is what all hope, but it is not clear yet whether it will be possible to do it by SW - they are still investigating.
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post #291 of 6075 Old 11-18-2009, 11:12 PM
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cat6man An audio CD plays gapless in the Prime, as it should in any CD player. When playing 24bit FLAC off a data CD or hard drive, about 2.5 seconds of silence occurs between songs (between FLAC files). No pop or any noise just a stream of zero's until the next song starts playing. There are no media players that support gapless audio playback that I know of. Yes, Squeezebox devices do support gapless playback. Many dedicated audio devices do.

A little primer for those unfamiliar with Gapless audio playback: Gapless playback is possible with a CD because it's designed to be contiguous. When you rip music everything is broken up into individual data files. One for each track. The only way to accomplish gapless playback is to either rip one huge single file for the whole CD or have auto detection software on playback that removes silence and/or buffers the next file so it's ready to start playing right away (when the previous song ends). This is desirable when listing to live recordings or some orchestral music because you do not want to hear a brake of silence essentially inserted between your music. However, removal of all silence is sometimes not desirable either. Many albums add some silence between songs (actually most albums do). Software and plugins used to enable Gapless playback sometimes remove the intentional silence.

Dune Players like all video media players on the market do not support any methods to achieve Gapless playback of audio files. Individual audio files are seen as data files, so there is a slight delay when one file ends and the next one begins. Most people would never even notice or care. As an audiophile I do appreciate the desire for continuous uninterpreted audio playback for some albums. If this is important to you then I would suggest buying a Squeezebox device for your music needs.

wiatrak No copy protection removal software is required on a PC sharing its optical drive on your network. At lest when using a Dune Player. Since the Base and Prime have DVD & Blu-ray licenses and decoding hardware built in, copy protection can be kept in tact without inhibiting playback.

Correction: Commercial CD's and DVD's can be played (streamed) from a networked optical drive in a PC without AnyDVD. Commercial Blu-ray disks can also be played (streamed) from a networked optical drive in a PC but, AnyDVD must be running. You can then browse the Blu-ray disk from the Dune Player and select the M2TS file and play it but, you can not access the main menu of the Blu-ray movie. This applies to the 3.0 models.

bordo32 I'm not sure if we just got lucky with our Pre-production sample but, our unit is really quite. Noise is not an issue at all. I can only detect that a Blu-ray is spinning if my ear is 6" inches or closer to the player. When playing CD's I can't even feel a vibration at all with my hand on the unit let a lone hear anything. So there must of just been a bad batch of optical drives with a physical assembly problem in some of the Pre-production players. Firmware will only address the issue of the drive continuing to spin after you have hit stop and perhaps the speed at which the drive spins. Final production players have not shipped yet. HDI is on top of the issues that some early adopters have experienced and I am sure they will be fixed before we receive them. As stated in an earlier post, we intend to test every unit before we ship them to our customers. That has been our intention from the very beginning. It's less headaches for us later and for You the customer as well.

I'm about to perform some more networking tests. Will report my findings later.


Arthur
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post #292 of 6075 Old 11-19-2009, 03:39 AM
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The Network Browser feature on the Dune Player works great. Just click on the Network Browser icon on the home page and any share on your network is visible and accessible. Keep in mind for high bit rate Blu-ray streaming you really want to setup NFS on your PC for the best performance. On the PC side simply click on My Network and any drive connected to, or installed in the Dune Player is visible and fully accessible.

I also discovered Read, Write, & Delete is currently only supported with hard drives formated EXT3 or FAT32. NTFS formated drives are read only with the current firmware. This limitation is only a problem when trying to write files over a network to a hard drive connected to the Dune Player that is formated NTFS. You can read and play any file on a NTFS drive plugged into or mounted in the player. Like most NAS devices EXT3 is the best choice if you plan on keeping a hard drive installed in or connected to your Dune Player all the time and you plan on transferring files to those drives over your network. Full NTFS support has been requested by many who voted on the features they would like to see added in future firmware updates.

What has impressed me the most is just how stable the unit is. No flaky behavior at all. No re-booting or lockups. It just works as advertised. There are still a handful of features that we want to see however. Like write support on NTFS drives, the ability to listen to music while viewing pictures and, of course the promised Netfix support.


Arthur
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post #293 of 6075 Old 11-19-2009, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArthurPower View Post

...No copy protection removal software is required on a PC sharing its optical drive on your network. At lest when using a Dune Player. Since the Base and Prime have DVD & Blu-ray licenses and decoding hardware built in, copy protection can be kept in tact without inhibiting playback...

Thanks for info! Altough I have one, very little doubt. Is this trick will work with BD Base? I know it plays commercial DVD's from USB optical drive; but commercial BD's is (AFAIK) another story?

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post #294 of 6075 Old 11-19-2009, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by ArthurPower View Post

Final production players have not shipped yet. HDI is on top of the issues that some early adopters have experienced and I am sure they will be fixed before we receive them. As stated in an earlier post, we intend to test every unit before we ship them to our customers. That has been our intention from the very beginning. It's less headaches for us later and for You the customer as well.

Arthur
DunePlayer.com

Doh! I guess Digital Connection estimate of 11/20 is going to be missed (again). Any ETA on when the Dune will be shipped to distributors (and then eventually us)?

Quality control is of course the most important thing, so take your time (but not too long please)
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post #295 of 6075 Old 11-19-2009, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by ArthurPower View Post

We received a sample BD Prime 3.0 yesterday! It's everything we hoped for. A quality built media player that will play anything you throw at it. The current firmware seems completely stable. It's very responsive, fast loading, and looks great.

Arthur
DunePlayer.com



Arthur,

Will it play FLV files and/or codecs?

Thanks
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post #296 of 6075 Old 11-19-2009, 09:32 AM
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Arthur - would you know if the Dune Prime can decode and play iTunes Store mp3's/DRM content?

Also, do you see a different pricing structure after these pre-production units run their course and the factory ramps up to full production?

Thanks.
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post #297 of 6075 Old 11-19-2009, 09:39 AM
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Does anyone have any idea as to when these things will ship? At this point I would imagine Digital Connection should be able to give a yay or nay for tomorrow.

Thanks,
Tony
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post #298 of 6075 Old 11-19-2009, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elove View Post

Will it play FLV files and/or codecs?

Thanks

Not so far, hopefully that will be added.
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post #299 of 6075 Old 11-19-2009, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by RedSoxInHD View Post

Does anyone have any idea as to when these things will ship? At this point I would imagine Digital Connection should be able to give a yay or nay for tomorrow.

Thanks,
Tony

We're waiting for confirmation that the shipment is ready to be transported so that we can notify everyone and start the order process.
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post #300 of 6075 Old 11-19-2009, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by RedSoxInHD View Post

Does anyone have any idea as to when these things will ship? At this point I would imagine Digital Connection should be able to give a yay or nay for tomorrow.

Thanks,
Tony

LOL, RedSoxInHD I was able to get on the pre-order with Digital Connection very early on. Probably safe to say that you will get yours sometime after I get mine
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