Dune HD Base 3.0 and Prime 3.0 on Sigma 8642 in Q4 2009 - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 6075 Old 09-06-2009, 07:31 AM
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Yeah. One and only difference between SMP 8643 and 8642 is lack of Macrovision. No commercial BD and DVD movies via composite out. What a waste!!!

"...Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril..."
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post #32 of 6075 Old 09-06-2009, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wiatrak View Post

Yeah. One and only difference between SMP 8643 and 8642 is lack of Macrovision. No commercial BD and DVD movies via composite out. What a waste!!!

... lack of Macrovision and CSS. Macrovision is used to output video to component too. So on 8643 you will not be fully able to use component output or PCH will have big legal problems with Macrovision company (if they hack the component output somehow)
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post #33 of 6075 Old 09-06-2009, 09:00 AM
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As wiatrak said and thats the only truth

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Originally Posted by wiatrak View Post

Yeah. One and only difference between SMP 8643 and 8642 is lack of Macrovision. No commercial BD and DVD movies via composite out. What a waste!!!

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post #34 of 6075 Old 09-06-2009, 09:06 AM
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Full ******** they really should make there homework!! the only chips which are not made for BluRay are 865x and 862x this are chips for IPTV and DMA's maybe they should read the sigma sheets before they start to write bs.

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/Products...tion_guide.pdf

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Odd versions inc. 8643 and 8635 are never meant for playing any copyright-protected
materials (like Blu-ray and DVD) and are mostly meant for cheap IPTV/VoD
set-top-boxes.

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post #35 of 6075 Old 09-06-2009, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostya View Post

... lack of Macrovision and CSS. Macrovision is used to output video to component too. So on 8643 you will not be fully able to use component output or PCH will have big legal problems with Macrovision company (if they hack the component output somehow)

Macrovision is only used for SDTV component. So for your HDTV you should not be worried. There is no HDTV version of Macrovision.
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post #36 of 6075 Old 09-06-2009, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostya View Post

... lack of Macrovision and CSS. Macrovision is used to output video to component too. So on 8643 you will not be fully able to use component output or PCH will have big legal problems with Macrovision company (if they hack the component output somehow)

This would mean no original-DVD over Component because of lack of CSS-support?
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post #37 of 6075 Old 09-06-2009, 11:13 AM
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CSS is supported by firmware, not by SoC (chip).
There are commercial DVD over component. Only not over composite, because of non-Macrovision version of chip.
http://www.sigmadesigns.com/Products...SMP8640_br.pdf

And BTW, it is funny thing nowadays, secure DVD from copying over composite... Does anyone recording DVD on VHS tape?
And the best - you must pay for this kind protection, some license cost...

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post #38 of 6075 Old 09-06-2009, 11:18 AM
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I know there is commercial DVD via Component as this is what I use and used the last 5 years, as many million ohers with a Standalonplayer.

So the C-200 will be able to play commercial CSS-protected DVD via component and Kostyas posting is wrong or misunderstandable?

The NMT-forum clearly states retaill-DVD will play via Component
http://www.networkedmediatank.com/sh....php?tid=23797
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post #39 of 6075 Old 09-06-2009, 11:24 AM
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"There are...DVD over component..." I mean in C-200.
http://www.networkedmediatank.com/sh....php?tid=26809

"...Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril..."
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post #40 of 6075 Old 09-06-2009, 11:30 AM
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Yes, saw this posting too right now.
So I don`t care how they do it, most important it works.
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post #41 of 6075 Old 09-06-2009, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticc View Post

...and Kostyas posting is wrong or misunderstandable?...

I think it is "competition" issue...

"...Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril..."
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post #42 of 6075 Old 09-06-2009, 03:22 PM
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clearly HDI is attacking PCH :P
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post #43 of 6075 Old 09-06-2009, 09:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevenz View Post

clearly HDI is attacking PCH :P

it's again up to you what to think, but just as a matter of fact, a distributor in my country very clearly told me that because of the legal issues he can't sell C-200 in any off-line shops as BD/DVD players (otherwise his company will have legal problems, he already checked it).
and he doesn't care how PCH avoided those license limitations... there is a clear difference between the 8642 and 8643 chips concerning the licenses and the Macrovision guys are perfectly aware of that (because this difference between the chips is indeed created by their demand, so that they can very easily understand what's legal and what's not)...
Though it seems for selling through Internet should not be a big issue, while it's still possible to cross the border (customs) with such products somehow...

So in the end you are all correct, it looks mostly much more a potential problem of selling people than of end-users. If you managed to buy it and receive somehow, you shouldn't care anymore on any such chip differencres.
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post #44 of 6075 Old 09-06-2009, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostya View Post

If you managed to buy it and receive somehow, you shouldn't care anymore on any such chip differencres.

What is the big deal here? - Your words imply ordering to be a problem "manage" .. "somehow"
I ordered it at my german local dealer and he will send it to me, as with every other stuff.

Q of interest: What makes a traditional dealer with shop, (Offline-dealer) different to an Online-shop in terms of being able to sell it as BR-player?

Besides - an Offline-dealer still would be able to sell it as "Mediaplayer" or soemthing like that? So why should a distrbutor abandon to sell the C-200 in case it looks like a good-selling product to him.

Don`t understand the difference between offline and online-dealer.
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post #45 of 6075 Old 09-07-2009, 12:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticc View Post

What is the big deal here? - Your words imply ordering to be a problem "manage" .. "somehow"
I ordered it at my german local dealer and he will send it to me, as with every other stuff.

I'd like to remind you that we are discussing here the press release at the HDI site. And it seems that this very info on the 8643 chip is mostly meant for resellers, not for end-users.
So maybe for us this discussion is more theoretical than practical. If you got your unit from your reseller, it's not your problem...

But frankly, I still don't understand a couple of things here:

1. many people use high quality video processors for SD-to-HD upscaling and they definitely preffer to make scaling not by Sigma but by their expensive staff instead. If they use an analog way, how do they get a non-upscaled SD signal for any protected material (DVD/Blu-ray)?

2. Also, I perfectly know that there is some trick on copy-protection for analog video. I personally have two devices (one HD STB for satellite and another one for old DVHS staff) where copy-protected (of course, with Macrovision) video can be output only in SD, but HD doesn't work (no problem with HDMI in all resolution at the same time).
So obviously there is some regulation also on HD output for a protected data via analog w/o protection.
My question: even if C-200 can remove Macrovision and put analog video in HD resolutions through the component output, doesn't it break any laws/licenses?
If so, even if they do it in the first f/w version, will they be forced to remove this possibility by authorities in the next f/w versions?

For example I use component connection to my projector, not HDMI (have problems with HDMI matrix all the time, tired to change it). So if buying C-200 and connecting this way, shouldn't I care that the future versions of f/w in this player will not allow me to watch any original DVDs and Blu-rays at all?
(indeed, how can you be sure?)

--

And concerning the dealers, obviously the "off-line" ones are much more exposed for checking by any kind of authorities. It's much easier to catch them if they do something wrong. For "online" (i.e. Internet shops) ones it's usually very hard to find them and check.
Why do you think it's almost impossible to find any streamers like PCH in any "real" shops, but one can buy such things only via Internet?
I checked it in Germany in MediaMarkt, for example (they sell _only_ WD, no other streamers at all). They told it's because of the license problems...
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post #46 of 6075 Old 09-07-2009, 12:36 AM
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There is no difference as you said, really strange what Kostya is talking, online and offline are the same, also about license i know from an reseller who also sells the PCH's, that PCH is one of the companies who has all licenses and he couldn't sell the Dune in the past because they miss some licenses, i don't know how it is now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticc View Post

What is the big deal here? - Your words imply ordering to be a problem "manage" .. "somehow"
I ordered it at my german local dealer and he will send it to me, as with every other stuff.

Q of interest: What makes a traditional dealer with shop, (Offline-dealer) different to an Online-shop in terms of being able to sell it as BR-player?

Besides - an Offline-dealer still would be able to sell it as "Mediaplayer" or soemthing like that? So why should a distrbutor abandon to sell the C-200 in case it looks like a good-selling product to him.

Don`t understand the difference between offline and online-dealer.

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post #47 of 6075 Old 09-07-2009, 01:45 AM
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This tread seems to have taken a turn away from the topic - Dune HD Base 3.0 and Prime 3.0 on Sigma 8642 in Q4 2009. I for one would like see it get back on track. The unit comes with a Sigma 8642 chip. What the 8643 does or does not do or what it means to the C-200 maybe valid points in other threads but it would seem to be a off topic here.

Maybe we can get back to the pro's and con's of the HDI 3.0 units here...
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post #48 of 6075 Old 09-07-2009, 02:07 AM
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Pros and Cons are always in comparison to a similar product, in this case a direct competitor C-200.
So I think this is right on track.
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post #49 of 6075 Old 09-07-2009, 04:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cHarOn99 View Post

There is no difference as you said, really strange what Kostya is talking, online and offline are the same, also about license i know from an reseller who also sells the PCH's, that PCH is one of the companies who has all licenses and he couldn't sell the Dune in the past because they miss some licenses, i don't know how it is now.

I didn't mean just PCH or Dune. Nearly nothing like these is sold [yet] in such places like MediaMarkt because of some reasons...
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post #50 of 6075 Old 09-07-2009, 05:02 AM
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i agree but that has nothing todo with license issues! this is because this devices are not simple as needed for normal customers, or can you say that network setup and such things are easy for normal users.

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Originally Posted by Kostya View Post

I didn't mean just PCH or Dune. Nearly nothing like these is sold [yet] in such places like MediaMarkt because of some reasons...

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post #51 of 6075 Old 09-07-2009, 05:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cHarOn99 View Post

i agree but that has nothing todo with license issues! this is because this devices are not simple as needed for normal customers, or can you say that network setup and such things are easy for normal users.

you are right. in principle, this is more complicated staff. But with DHCP, SMB/UPnP browsing and very easy GUI quite many people can use it. I'm sure...

can't say that much about C-200 from this point of view (especially on the GUI, I never like it there), but Dune ones definitely look Ok with the latest f/w of August... (I use 1.0 of course, but it's announced that the same f/w features are available in all the versions: 1.0/2.0/3.0)
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post #52 of 6075 Old 09-07-2009, 07:44 AM
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Fine fine, however I still do not catch this one

"My question: even if C-200 can remove Macrovision and put analog video in HD resolutions through the component output, doesn't it break any laws/licenses?
If so, even if they do it in the first f/w version, will they be forced to remove this possibility by authorities in the next f/w versions?"

Macrovision is a copy-protection for analog outputs as component.
Even when not removing Macrovision I still would be able to display via Component on my TV/Beamer.

You mean things change when the signal is getting upscaled within SIGMA-chip? - Upscaling would fail. Upscaling in TV/Beamer also would fail because of Macrovision and what would be left is a SD-signal via component.
Also HD-material over component getting downscaled to SD because of Macrovision?

Is that the message?
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post #53 of 6075 Old 09-07-2009, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticc View Post

Macrovision is a copy-protection for analog outputs as component.
Even when not removing Macrovision I still would be able to display via Component on my TV/Beamer.

You mean things change when the signal is getting upscaled within SIGMA-chip? - Upscaling would fail. Upscaling in TV/Beamer also would fail because of Macrovision and what would be left is a SD-signal via component.
Also HD-material over component getting downscaled to SD because of Macrovision?

Is that the message?

I mean that 8643 chip doesn't work with Macrovision. So for any copy-protected staff (like DVD or Blu-ray) this chip can't output analog video:
1. w/o protection as it is illegal to remove it (for any signal, upscaled or not)
2. or with protection as this protection is Macrovision and Macrovision is not supported by the chip 8643 (again, for any signal, upscaled or not)

so I don't understand how legally it's possible to have _any_ kind of output from composite or component for legal DVDs or Blu-rays...

And if anything is done illegally, than it's just a matter of time when Macrovision will make problems to any such manufacturer like PCH. And then they will need to remove any analog video output at all for DVDs and Blu-ray in all the future versions of the firmware...

If see any problem with this logic, just tell me where exactly...
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post #54 of 6075 Old 09-07-2009, 08:31 AM
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Okay, now I got it.
Thanks for your patience.

No macrovision supported by device --> no output on component of protected stuff (DVD as well as BR)

Right now macrovision-tweaking assumed in C-200, so component working for protected stuff.

In the future Tweak maybe has to be removed --> no protected material via Component.

Interesting.
And now someone please to confirm or to disprove. :-)

Still using Component for my beamer, this will stay as is for quite a while.
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post #55 of 6075 Old 09-07-2009, 09:23 AM
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May it be this macrovision-crap is only valid for composite and not for component and so is no issue at all?
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post #56 of 6075 Old 09-07-2009, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticc View Post

May it be this macrovision-crap is only valid for composite and not for component and so is no issue at all?

what would be the point to protect only composite video if the component one is unprotected in any way?
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post #57 of 6075 Old 09-07-2009, 10:11 AM
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I dont know what all this fuss is about. Macrovision is only for composite and s-video outputs. It does not affect component at all. Component is analog, but it doesnt use the same standards that composite and s-video does. Its completely different.
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post #58 of 6075 Old 09-07-2009, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostya View Post

what would be the point to protect only composite video if the component one is unprotected in any way?

Because (AFAIK) there is no recording devices with component input. Yes, except Hauppage... Macrovision protection was introduced more then 20 years ago, in VHS age...

And back on track. Kostya, would you be kind and answer on my question from post #20? I didn't find the answer in manual (for 1.0)... TIA!
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...1&postcount=20

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post #59 of 6075 Old 09-07-2009, 10:56 AM
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Does anybody have any information on the quality of the video processing (VP) produced by this 8642 chip?

I'm looking at the new Oppo BD-83 for a BR player, partly because it includes the Anchor Bay VRS chip for VP.

Consequently I'm thinking more along the lines of the Dune HD Base 3.0 model ... unless I it turns out that the VP in this box will be comparable.

BIG difference in overall cost. BIG difference in quality?

Thoughts?
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post #60 of 6075 Old 09-07-2009, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Does anybody have any information on the quality of the video processing (VP) produced by this 8642 chip?

I'm looking at the new Oppo BD-83 for a BR player, partly because it includes the Anchor Bay VRS chip for VP.

Consequently I'm thinking more along the lines of the Dune HD Base 3.0 model ... unless I it turns out that the VP in this box will be comparable.

BIG difference in overall cost. BIG difference in quality?

Thoughts?

I've played with the Oppo. If network media playback (or file playback) is not a big draw for you then the Oppo wins hands down. The Oppo is just a beautiful piece of machine. The Dunes are great for file playback and for network playback but they will not compare to the look of the Oppo.
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