Official GOOGLE TV Thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 1827 Old 10-11-2010, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by romper View Post

pmcd

Stay with your apple. I will surf the entire web, I will have only ONE input that will intergrate it and layover my web browsing while I still watch and hear live broadcast, or have PIP. And all that is from the get-go. Keep you Atv.

I plan on staying with Apple. In fact, just ordered a 2nd ATV. Thank you for the advice. I look forward to reports from GTV land.

I can already web browse using my Mini while watching TV in a picture using my Eye TV HD. I have done it exactly once. Highly overrated, and definitely not popular amongst other members of my family.

Perhaps it's an age thing. It would be interesting to figure out the age distribution of the users of these various devices.

Philip
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post #272 of 1827 Old 10-11-2010, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by qoncept View Post

Huh? Are you saying you don't care about 1080p? Do you really think your view is shared by everyone else in the world?

Frankly I think the back and forth regard the ATV is misplaced on a Google TV thread but speaking to the specific issue: although approximately half of US households are believed to have HDTVs an enormous amount of content is still SD including nearly all rentals. And, despite ridiculously low prices, blu-ray players have yet to reach 20% of US households. So, yes there are people that will believe anything a sales associate at BestBuy will tell them about "True HD" but technically it's meaningless and as long as the typical consumer can plug their source device into their TV and get a picture that looks as good 720p they'll be happy. Just like all the ABC and FOX viewers.

Finally it's not completely mad to imagine that Apple will release an update to the ATV-2g that will officially support 1080p24 since the hardware (unlike the ATV-1g) already supports loading 1080p content via iTunes.
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post #273 of 1827 Old 10-11-2010, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by palehorse View Post

Phillip, one question... answer honestly: going forward, will 1080i/p content become more, or will it become less, prevalent?

When you switch between ABC and NBC do you instantly see a difference? Even on my 119" screen (using a 1080p projector) I have never seen an obvious difference.
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post #274 of 1827 Old 10-11-2010, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

When you switch between ABC and NBC do you instantly see a difference? Even on my 119" screen (using a 1080p projector) I have never seen an obvious difference.

I think it will be difficult to decide this question. I imagine there isn't much difference between 720p and 1080 interlaced, especially at the low bitrate of broadcasts. Would 1080p be better? Maybe. There is clearly a difference between high bit rate 1080p and broadcast 720p. Would there also be a difference with high bit rate 1080p and 720p????
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post #275 of 1827 Old 10-11-2010, 08:23 PM
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So, later today (Tuesday) Sony will introduce their implementation of GoogleTV. They previously promised TV's and Blueray players.

So lets see.

If a carpenter makes a door he should get money every time someone uses it - he's also an "artist".
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post #276 of 1827 Old 10-11-2010, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by arswhat View Post

So, later today (Tuesday) Sony will introduce their implementation of GoogleTV. They previously promised TV's and Blueray players.

So lets see.

A 3D bluray player with a GTV front end, at a reasonable cost, would go a really long way in convincing me to give this a try...
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post #277 of 1827 Old 10-11-2010, 11:04 PM
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So, like, the chances of 1080p becoming more prevalent are pretty darned low outside of BluRay continuing to proliferate. And even though it will, more and more material will be streamed and be of an even lower quality. And let's not confuse resolution with quality. Bitrate is every bit as important as nominal resolution and bitrates for streaming are unlikely to rise much for several years.

In fact, aside from the obvious fact that 1080i broadcasts are not worlds more "resolutiony" than 720p ones, there is also the truth that both are sent at the same bitrate most of the time (barring differences in subchannel use). For what little it's worth, the Fox/ABC/related properties channels are unlikely to switch from 720p this decade.

Anyway, back to your GoogleTV vs. Apple discussion. For what it's worth, I believe Revue and the Sony sets will register barely a blip this Q4. On the other hand, there will be several million AppleTVs installed by Jan 1. For what it's worth.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #278 of 1827 Old 10-12-2010, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by pmcd View Post

The real strength of the ATV is in AirPlay. That isn't out yet. Your friend's TV will be ancient technology compared to that.

That's something that has me interested. I personally don't see it as being that big of a deal, but since everyone else does, I must just not "get it." I can see streaming music to your receiver, but who has high quality movies on their 8gb phone and wants to stream them to their TV? Like I said, I may just be missing the point. We'll see.

Regardless, Google TV users should be able to do the same thing with DLNA. My Droid X supports it.

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It sounds to me that you needed a more traditional media player. The BBox may be it or Dune or NetGear 550. Whenever I hear 1080p, large local collection, etc ... The ATV is not what comes to mind.

Maybe, but I definitely want to check the GTV out. It has me intrigued and sounds like it'll do everything I want and more. I'm very rarely his anxious and optimistic about a new product, but I really feel like they're getting it right.
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post #279 of 1827 Old 10-12-2010, 05:45 AM
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It's funny, I normally have a huge positive expectation whenever Google releases something, and this time, I am considerably disappointed. It seems like the GTV is all about potential down the road, and little about what it can do today.

I just wasn't impressed by the feature set. I am not a huge Apple fan, but I watch their product release presentations and am normally wowed by at least one or two things. Call it marketing hype, whatever, but they just know how to sell a product.

The only excitement I would have for GTV is if Boxee were to integrate it into their product, as someone alluded to previously. It's wishful thinking for sure, but then you would have a product that seems to provide a lot day 1 combined with the promise of GTV in the future.

I hope I am proved wrong though, I would love for Google to knock this one out of the park.
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post #280 of 1827 Old 10-12-2010, 08:14 AM
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Well it looks to be official now, this in no way can replace a Harmony remote. One activity, watch TV, and that's it, even when using your phone.

From here:
Quote:


The Revue Keyboard Controller and Mini Controller will not provide you with the same functionality that you have with the Harmony Remote. With the Keyboard and Mini Controller you will be able to power on each of your devices and control them individually, but you will not have Activity control like you do with the Harmony Remote.

With the Logitech Harmony smartphone apps, you will be limited to one Activity (Watch Google TV), but sequences will not be available.

Quote:


The Controller can control the follwoing Devices:

Logitech Revue
TV
Set-top Box
AV Receiver

That's hardly "all" devices for most people.

Download my IR hex codes for the Denon AVR-4810ci and other Denon receivers here.
For Logitech Harmony support, ask Logitech for the Denon receiver in the account kmickunas.

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post #281 of 1827 Old 10-12-2010, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Keith Mickunas View Post

Well it looks to be official now, this in no way can replace a Harmony remote. One activity, watch TV, and that's it, even when using your phone.

From here:

Sounds right to me. It would be too expensive to have a complete Harmony remote replacement with keyboard/d-pad + the Revue box. Use the Harmony remote for all 'traditional' viewing. Use the Revue keyboard when you need to search for content or go online. Works for me.

pmcd, a browser displayed on the TV can have many uses for a family. One great use case is family calendar, we use Cozi. Review the upcoming week of activities on the big TV instead of trying to have everyone fit in front of the computer screen (we only have laptops). I'm sure there's other use cases as well.
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post #282 of 1827 Old 10-12-2010, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by sushinut View Post

Sounds right to me. It would be too expensive to have a complete Harmony remote replacement with keyboard/d-pad + the Revue box. Use the Harmony remote for all 'traditional' viewing. Use the Revue keyboard when you need to search for content or go online. Works for me.

As I've been arguing, their claims have been too good to be true. But people in this thread have been insisting that since their marketing fluff repeatedly claims it can control all your devices then I've been worrying about nothing. My point is that if you buy this thinking that because it has Harmony support it'll replace all your remotes you will be disappointed. Unless "all" for you means TV, receiver, and STB.

Frankly if they packaged this with an RF remote also, and it could control everything, in lieu of needing something like the 890 with the RF receiver, and they added IP control, I'd pay a lot more for that.

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post #283 of 1827 Old 10-12-2010, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by sushinut View Post

Sounds right to me. It would be too expensive to have a complete Harmony remote replacement with keyboard/d-pad + the Revue box. Use the Harmony remote for all 'traditional' viewing. Use the Revue keyboard when you need to search for content or go online. Works for me.

The funny thing about this is I don't think Google is too keen on Logitech including the keyboard. It doesn't make much sense. The interface is designed to use with a remote. Google's new instant search results dealie seems to have been in large part to facilitate this; click 'A' on the onscreen keyboard and a list of titles that start with A pop up. Add a couple more letters and you'll find what you're looking for more often than not.

No one wants to use a keyboard in the living room, and I think including it is sending the wrong message about what the goal for Google TV is. Not to mention the additional cost.
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post #284 of 1827 Old 10-12-2010, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Keith Mickunas View Post

As I've been arguing, their claims have been too good to be true. But people in this thread have been insisting that since their marketing fluff repeatedly claims it can control all your devices then I've been worrying about nothing. My point is that if you buy this thinking that because it has Harmony support it'll replace all your remotes you will be disappointed. Unless "all" for you means TV, receiver, and STB.

Frankly if they packaged this with an RF remote also, and it could control everything, in lieu of needing something like the 890 with the RF receiver, and they added IP control, I'd pay a lot more for that.

The $300 price tag is one of the biggest downsides of the Revue even though it fulfills different requirements vs ATV, Boxee Box, etc. Bundling a fully capable remote with the Revue would surely kill it, pushing the price way out of reach for many.
Maybe down the road if the Revue really takes off they'll release a fully capable Harmony keyboard remote.
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post #285 of 1827 Old 10-12-2010, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Keith Mickunas View Post

Well it looks to be official now, this in no way can replace a Harmony remote. One activity, watch TV, and that's it, even when using your phone.

From here:


That's hardly "all" devices for most people.

Well, that's disappointing. BTW, that was a reply to my post on the Logitech forum. I have to admit their marketing of their Revue controllers was very misleading. However, that doesn't take away my excitement for Google TV itself. I already have 2 Harmony remotes that are fully programmed for all my gear.

------------------------------
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post #286 of 1827 Old 10-12-2010, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by qoncept View Post

The funny thing about this is I don't think Google is too keen on Logitech including the keyboard. It doesn't make much sense. The interface is designed to use with a remote. Google's new instant search results dealie seems to have been in large part to facilitate this; click 'A' on the onscreen keyboard and a list of titles that start with A pop up. Add a couple more letters and you'll find what you're looking for more often than not.

No one wants to use a keyboard in the living room, and I think including it is sending the wrong message about what the goal for Google TV is. Not to mention the additional cost.

I want a keyboard in the living room !! Not as part of my primary remote though.
I think the inclusion of the full Chrome browser would indicate Google is fine with a keyboard for the Revue. Directv HDDVRs have Smart Search, which is similar to Google's instant search, but much slower. We don't use it often but when we do it's a bit cumbersome.
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post #287 of 1827 Old 10-12-2010, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by qoncept View Post

That's something that has me interested. I personally don't see it as being that big of a deal, but since everyone else does, I must just not "get it." I can see streaming music to your receiver, but who has high quality movies on their 8gb phone and wants to stream them to their TV? Like I said, I may just be missing the point. We'll see.

Regardless, Google TV users should be able to do the same thing with DLNA. My Droid X supports it.


Yeah, I totally don't "get" why airplay matters.

I can already stream stuff to my tv from my media server with no apple hardware involved, ditto streaming music to my receiver without apple hardware.

I could stream video to my iphone too if I wanted with various apps without ATV, but why the hell would I want to stream to a 3.5" screen when I have other screens 10-20 times larger all over the house? And streaming from the iphone makes even less sense when I have hundreds of times more storage on my media server.


One guy tried to explain that airplay was so awesome because he could put his phone in one pocket, his ATV in another, and then play his movies on other peoples sets when he went to their place.

I pointed out that rather than the $99 he spent on an ATV he could accomplish this with a $15 video-out cable for his phone. He was not amused.
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post #288 of 1827 Old 10-12-2010, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Kurtz9 View Post

Yeah, I totally don't "get" why airplay matters.

I can already stream stuff to my tv from my media server with no apple hardware involved, ditto streaming music to my receiver without apple hardware.

I could stream video to my iphone too if I wanted with various apps without ATV, but why the hell would I want to stream to a 3.5" screen when I have other screens 10-20 times larger all over the house? And streaming from the iphone makes even less sense when I have hundreds of times more storage on my media server.


One guy tried to explain that airplay was so awesome because he could put his phone in one pocket, his ATV in another, and then play his movies on other peoples sets when he went to their place.

I pointed out that rather than the $99 he spent on an ATV he could accomplish this with a $15 video-out cable for his phone. He was not amused.

Awesome We need people like you to make sure consumers can see past the fancy Apple marketing which clouds their thinking!

Seriously, Apple did do some revolutionary things with the introduction of the iPhone, but when it comes to AppleTV and Airplay, they have forsaken interoperability by refusing to support the industry standard (DLNA), but bringing their own protocol (which manufacturers again have to license by paying money to Apple, I gather).

I am not a big fan of the CE4100's features being crippled by the Google TV (Logitech Revue), but at least they decided to support DLNA for integrating with the rest of the non-Apple media components in a household.

Ganesh T S
Sr. Editor, AnandTech Inc.
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post #289 of 1827 Old 10-12-2010, 11:17 AM
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Does anyone know what the latest word is? The original release date was supposedly September 29, pushed a week to October 6. It's come and gone without a release and I haven't found any spin from Logitech or Google since. I'm not surprised, but curious.

I'm also very skeptical about the November Boxee Box release date. This thing was supposedly going to be out a LONG time ago. The preorder makes me feel like it won't be TOO much later, but I don't see November happening. My opinion is that Boxee's biggest problem so far has been that they are trying to support way too many platforms and that's been slowing them down a LOT. I don't understand why they are worried about support on Windows, Linux, Mac, Apple TV and now D-Link's hardware. Especially Apple TV, which they'll never be able to support effectively (since it's hacked hardware).
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post #290 of 1827 Old 10-12-2010, 11:20 AM
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Yeah, I totally don't "get" why airplay matters.

It's not so much what can be done rather to a large degree it's how it's done. Much like Sonos where some people look at them as being a closed system, expensive and not offering every feature some nerd might dream up around 3am. However the moment someone uses Sonos they quickly find all of the negatives is exactly the reason they can't live without it. The integration and simplicity allows for a user-experience that can't be duplicated especially if you are talking about mainstream users… the real target market!
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post #291 of 1827 Old 10-12-2010, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by qoncept View Post

Does anyone know what the latest word is? The original release date was supposedly September 29, pushed a week to October 6. It's come and gone without a release and I haven't found any spin from Logitech or Google since. I'm not surprised, but curious.

Some sites state Oct 17. If you go to the Revue on bestbuy.com and click on "Estimate Arrival Time" it pops up with 10/20-10/27/2010.
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post #292 of 1827 Old 10-12-2010, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by qoncept View Post

Does anyone know what the latest word is? The original release date was supposedly September 29, pushed a week to October 6. It's come and gone without a release and I haven't found any spin from Logitech or Google since. I'm not surprised, but curious.

People that pre-ordered are receiving emails giving a ship date of Oct 21.

Simplygoogletv.com and androidcentral.com both have posts on it.
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post #293 of 1827 Old 10-12-2010, 11:59 AM
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"The funny thing about this is I don't think Google is too keen on Logitech including the keyboard. It doesn't make much sense. The interface is designed to use with a remote"

OK, so you're mistaken. It's 100% clear that Google is not only keen on the keyboard, it's currently a design feature of GoogleTV. The system expects a hardware keyboard, as evidenced by the fact that Logitech and Sony both include them. In fact, it's not clear that a soft keyboard is currently available onscreen (has anyone seen one, maybe I missed it).

This product is stillborn. Consider my enthusiasm gone.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #294 of 1827 Old 10-12-2010, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Evan78 View Post

People that pre-ordered are receiving emails giving a ship date of Oct 21.

Simplygoogletv.com and androidcentral.com both have posts on it.

I can confirm that I received that email. My Revue will be shipping on 10/21. Can't wait!

------------------------------
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post #295 of 1827 Old 10-12-2010, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

It's 100% clear that Google is not only keen on the keyboard, it's currently a design feature of GoogleTV. The system expects a hardware keyboard, as evidenced by the fact that Logitech and Sony both include them. In fact, it's not clear that a soft keyboard is currently available onscreen (has anyone seen one, maybe I missed it).

This product is stillborn. Consider my enthusiasm gone.

What killed your enthusiasm?

Is the fact that the keyboard won't be a full featured harmony replacement or something else?
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post #296 of 1827 Old 10-12-2010, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Slates View Post

It's funny, I normally have a huge positive expectation whenever Google releases something, and this time, I am considerably disappointed. It seems like the GTV is all about potential down the road, and little about what it can do today.

To be fair, Google historically are the kings of beta ... so I'm a bit confused by your expectation. I suspect you've historically hopped onto Google products once they've actually matured?

It might be that they are a victim of their own success at this point? They're so huge that their products are getting massive press before they're truly ready for primetime?


Either way, I do agree with your stance of taking a wait-and-see though. I think there is A TON of potential here - it just needs to gestate a bit longer.
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post #297 of 1827 Old 10-12-2010, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Mickunas View Post

Well it looks to be official now, this in no way can replace a Harmony remote. One activity, watch TV, and that's it, even when using your phone.

From here:




That's hardly "all" devices for most people.

WTF wow ... that blows.

IMO the lack of devices is the least of its problems. Harmony's claim to fame has always been its activities handling. That's what differentiated it from competing (pricewise) remotes.

Even if this thing could individually control every CE device ever created, the lack of activities makes it a shadow of 'real' Harmony remotes.
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post #298 of 1827 Old 10-12-2010, 01:10 PM
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To be fair, Google historically are the kings of beta ... so I'm a bit confused by your expectation. I suspect you've historically hopped onto Google products once they've actually matured?

It might be that they are a victim of their own success at this point? They're so huge that their products are getting massive press before they're truly ready for primetime?


Either way, I do agree with your stance of taking a wait-and-see though. I think there is A TON of potential here - it just needs to gestate a bit longer.

Actually I have jumped on fairly early with their products and have been impressed with their functionality day one. I know they were "beta", but they offered things that no one else did. Take google voice for example.. I have been using it for awhile and love it for the most part. It has issues, but no one else offers a similar quality service yet (that I know of anyway).

I do agree that it could be victims of their own success. Apple is dangerously close to that, each product they release has to shock and awe, and that can only continue for so long.

Definitely a lot of potential here, and as a google fan, I am optimistic. I just am not as excited as I would have expected to be.
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post #299 of 1827 Old 10-12-2010, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

OK, so you're mistaken. It's 100% clear that Google is not only keen on the keyboard, it's currently a design feature of GoogleTV. The system expects a hardware keyboard, as evidenced by the fact that Logitech and Sony both include them. In fact, it's not clear that a soft keyboard is currently available onscreen (has anyone seen one, maybe I missed it).

I completely disagree that what vendors are including with their implementations of GTV have ANY implications on what Google's intentions are. The first Android phones had physical keyboards. Was that evidence that Google expected physical keyboards on Android phones?

And I did read in a hands-on review that there is a soft keyboard.

Quote:


This product is stillborn. Consider my enthusiasm gone.

First of all, it's not even Google's product. It's Logitech's. Second, it's been a couple weeks. What revolutionary new piece of hardware ever came out when it was scheduled?
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post #300 of 1827 Old 10-12-2010, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by palehorse View Post

A 3D bluray player with a GTV front end, at a reasonable cost, would go a really long way in convincing me to give this a try...

Heh, the advertising system her inserted a link on your "bluray" player words, and linked to a Sony blueray on amazon. 225 i think it cost. Wonder if GTV hardware won't increase the price.

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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Anyway, back to your GoogleTV vs. Apple discussion. For what it's worth, I believe Revue and the Sony sets will register barely a blip this Q4. On the other hand, there will be several million AppleTVs installed by Jan 1. For what it's worth.

I think there will be a lot fewer appletvs, sure there are a lot of religious freaks who pray at the altar of Steve Jobs - but still. As for GTV, its still only being sold in the US (or will be), and the ball hasn't picked up momentum - but in a year I think a lot of people will be using it.


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Originally Posted by qoncept View Post

(Airplay)
That's something that has me interested. I personally don't see it as being that big of a deal, but since everyone else does, I must just not "get it." I can see streaming music to your receiver, but who has high quality movies on their 8gb phone and wants to stream them to their TV? Like I said, I may just be missing the point. We'll see.

Regardless, Google TV users should be able to do the same thing with DLNA. My Droid X supports it.

Well, you can run a ********** client on your Droid X and download something 1080p and stream it to your GTV ;-)


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Originally Posted by Slates View Post

It's funny, I normally have a huge positive expectation whenever Google releases something, and this time, I am considerably disappointed. It seems like the GTV is all about potential down the road, and little about what it can do today.

Well, we sorta knew that in advance: It would allow you to see the full internet - and run Android apps (come January)

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Originally Posted by Slates View Post

I just wasn't impressed by the feature set. I am not a huge Apple fan, but I watch their product release presentations and am normally wowed by at least one or two things. Call it marketing hype, whatever, but they just know how to sell a product.

Not to me, they send me running for the hills.

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Originally Posted by Slates View Post

The only excitement I would have for GTV is if Boxee were to integrate it into their product, as someone alluded to previously. It's wishful thinking for sure, but then you would have a product that seems to provide a lot day 1 combined with the promise of GTV in the future.

Well the only thing stopping them would be the hardware. Don't know what's going to be in that box when its released - but someone said they use the same chip - so perhaps it could.
But the Boxee people might not be interested - or have the money to develop another model.


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Originally Posted by sushinut View Post

Sounds right to me. It would be too expensive to have a complete Harmony remote replacement with keyboard/d-pad + the Revue box. Use the Harmony remote for all 'traditional' viewing. Use the Revue keyboard when you need to search for content or go online. Works for me.


I don't see why it should cost anything. They look up the device and download it from the site - if they don't do that for other devices that seems just be an artificial limit. Perhaps because they can then sell a more expensive thing later.

But if the device is capable of doing it on a technical level, someone is bound to hack it with an android app later.

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Originally Posted by Keith Mickunas View Post

As I've been arguing, their claims have been too good to be true. But people in this thread have been insisting that since their marketing fluff repeatedly claims it can control all your devices then I've been worrying about nothing. My point is that if you buy this thinking that because it has Harmony support it'll replace all your remotes you will be disappointed. Unless "all" for you means TV, receiver, and STB.

In some countries you could sue them for false advertisement.


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Originally Posted by qoncept View Post

No one wants to use a keyboard in the living room, and I think including it is sending the wrong message about what the goal for Google TV is. Not to mention the additional cost.

You mean YOU don't want to use a keyboard.
I don't already have a keyboard in the living room, I don't know anybody who doesn't. What I might object to is having TWO - but I'm sure Google will make it possible to remote control it from Chrome (or someone else will) on the PC.


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Originally Posted by sushinut View Post

The $300 price tag is one of the biggest downsides of the Revue even though it fulfills different requirements vs ATV, Boxee Box, etc. Bundling a fully capable remote with the Revue would surely kill it, pushing the price way out of reach for many.
Maybe down the road if the Revue really takes off they'll release a fully capable Harmony keyboard remote.


Well if you don't get a full remote at that price it does seem a bit on the large side.


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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

"The funny thing about this is I don't think Google is too keen on Logitech including the keyboard. It doesn't make much sense. The interface is designed to use with a remote"

OK, so you're mistaken. It's 100% clear that Google is not only keen on the keyboard, it's currently a design feature of GoogleTV.

Its only clear if you provide a link to a google site where they tell us this. Your guessing doesn't really count.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

The system expects a hardware keyboard, as evidenced by the fact that Logitech and Sony both include them.

I think its more likely think assume people are too stupid to figure out how to use a mobile phone (or they assume most don't have one)

If a carpenter makes a door he should get money every time someone uses it - he's also an "artist".
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