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post #721 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Another countdown is on. I have to say, these are big, ANNOYING issues they're getting to first. The FF/REW, and to have the time-code on display; that's HUGE. DTS/DD is like it finally being able to add 1+1. Playback resume...good. And just hopefully make the thing more stable.

If they settle it down, with v1.1 on time...and continue to show quick progress, with the updates they've promised...I might take a bold step, and sell my 2 A-110s and buy another Pop

I know, I know...it's a risk. But if I'm going to commit to this thing, I can't have one foot in and one foot out. Can't structure my files and naming for Pop, at the risk of still trying to satisfy A-110 and YAMJ. It's time to let go of the past. Syabas don't let me down.

CD

I'll admit if the fixes scheduled for 7/20 are released and work correctly I may go ahead and order one of these and play around with it.

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post #722 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 10:46 AM
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This was on a Dune Press release... not sure how accurate but you would thing they would know... No mention of netflix requirements

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1. 864x chip
Our Prime 3.0 solution is based on Sigma Designs 8642 chip, not on the 8643 one. We'd like to remind that every odd version of Sigma chips is a functionally reduced variant of the chip with the _previous_ even number (i.e. 8643-8642. 8635-8634, ...). Odd versions inc. 8643 and 8635 are never meant for playing any copyright-protected materials (like Blu-ray and DVD) and are mostly meant for cheap IPTV/VoD set-top-boxes. For example, Macrovision support is enabled in 8642 chips and disabled in 8643 ones. So only Dune players on 8642 chip have no limitations with output of protected video through analog video interfaces. Also 8643-based players can not be legally sold in any AV-stores as Blu-ray players (for example, with some preinstalled Blu-ray drive), for Dune BD players there is no such limitation and you'll be able to find them not only in Internet.

It is possible netflix doesn't require macrovision, maybe they just require the device contents to be encrypted, which an earlier post said was?

Looks like popbox can only play encryptionless BD? Probably the reason why no bd drive and cheap price (less $ BD licensing?).
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post #723 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by dandirk View Post

This was on a Dune Press release... not sure how accurate but you would thing they would know... No mention of netflix requirements



It is possible netflix doesn't require macrovision, maybe they just require the device contents to be encrypted, which an earlier post said was?

Looks like popbox can only play encryptionless BD? Probably the reason why no bd drive and cheap price (less $ BD licensing?).

What it says to me is that Syabas is not being completely honest with us when they say that the box has all of the hardware requirements to meet Netflix and other premium content requirements.

For all we know Netflix and others have a strict document that specifies which chipsets are supported and the 8643 is not one of them.
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post #724 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

The way I got into mine was a quirk. And only after the box being idle for several hours.

What do you do to it after it's been idle for several hours to invoke the quirk?
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post #725 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

So it is in fact the 8643 Sigma chipset. Thanks for posting up.

I am confused. Syabas have continually said that Macrovision support, etc, is not a problem for the Popbox but I'm also pretty sure that the 8643 chipset does not support the type of security that Netflix requires.

So, it would appear that Syabas is implying that at a later date Netflix will drop this requirement... something that appears hard for me to believe after WD had to come out with an entirely new product with a new chipset to get Netflix approved.

Macrovision only applies to Composite output. As the popbox has no composite output, it would be wasted technology. Component and HDMI use CGMS and HDCP respectively. It'll be interesting how this works out with Netflix's requirements however.

-Chad
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post #726 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by jethroz99 View Post

Macrovision only applies to Composite output. As the popbox has no composite output, it would be wasted technology. Component and HDMI use CGMS and HDCP respectively. It'll be interesting how this works out with Netflix's requirements however.

-Chad

I think that the security features would possibly apply to the component video outputs but I'm not sure.

Also, the 8643 might not support HDCP to the extent Netflix and others would like to see. It could simply be something in the chipset itself, in which it would be possible on the Popbox to directly swipe the digital signal from the mainboard where as on other more secure chipsets this is not possible.

All that we know is that Syabas have said the Popbox "meets all hardware requirements for premium content providers" and yet the WD Live Plus and new Seagate boxes that have Netflix use chipsets that have whatever added security it is that the 8643 does not have.

At the end of the day, there is no Netflix on the Popbox and no expectation for it either other than some hints about "future apps".
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post #727 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

I think that the security features would possibly apply to the component video outputs but I'm not sure.

Also, the 8643 might not support HDCP to the extent Netflix and others would like to see. It could simply be something in the chipset itself, in which it would be possible on the Popbox to directly swipe the digital signal from the mainboard where as on other more secure chipsets this is not possible.

All that we know is that Syabas have said the Popbox "meets all hardware requirements for premium content providers" and yet the WD Live Plus and new Seagate boxes that have Netflix use chipsets that have whatever added security it is that the 8643 does not have.

At the end of the day, there is no Netflix on the Popbox and no expectation for it either other than some hints about "future apps".

Those devices however have composite outputs, and would require macrovision. I really dont think there are any other differences in the chips besides the lack of macrovision support. Like I said, it'll be interesting.

-Chad
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post #728 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:04 AM
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Okay it looks like the 8643 not only lacks macrovision but also lacks on chip SSL type encryption for the data moving on the device bus itself.

Apparently this was exactly what WD ran into with the Live, and therefore had to come out with the WD Live Plus with a chip that supported this SSL encryption on the chipset itself to get Netflix approved.

If WD had to jump through those hoops it is very hard for me to believe that Netflix will bend the rules for the Popbox.

I also believe that the statements Syabas employees have made that the 8643 chipset supporting premium content are patently false. How can they say this when they know the 8643 does not meet this strict SSL requirement that Netflix have?

It seems that they are hoping they can negotiate with Netflix to get this approved, perhaps in exchange for free in-box advertising, etc, but I think the chance of Netflix doing this are low, and the chance of an HD capable Netflix service on the Popbox are exactly zero.
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post #729 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

I think that the security features would possibly apply to the component video outputs but I'm not sure.

Also, the 8643 might not support HDCP to the extent Netflix and others would like to see. It could simply be something in the chipset itself, in which it would be possible on the Popbox to directly swipe the digital signal from the mainboard where as on other more secure chipsets this is not possible.

All that we know is that Syabas have said the Popbox "meets all hardware requirements for premium content providers" and yet the WD Live Plus and new Seagate boxes that have Netflix use chipsets that have whatever added security it is that the 8643 does not have.

At the end of the day, there is no Netflix on the Popbox and no expectation for it either other than some hints about "future apps".

My understanding this was only a Composite issue as mentioned, so no composite it should not be an issue. If it is not an issue then I don't see how Syabas is lying (once again, assuming the fact that no composite negates the issue)

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post #730 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:06 AM
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I have not been able to find confirmation of what sigma chip is in the WD Live +. Everyone says its the chip with macosupport aka an "even" model #.

Everyone assumes the new chip was required for netflix, maybe it was but not for macrovision specifically?

arrrg If it comes out as true that the 8643 is the reason for no netflix then, I just don't know what to say. The results would be crooked, knowing deception of the customer. Hard to see any company being this blatent but you never know.

I know for certain I will only buy a popbox once netflix goes live and has good reports.
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post #731 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:06 AM
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Something is popping at the front door in an Amazon package, should I open the door????

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post #732 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Okay it looks like the 8643 not only lacks macrovision but also lacks on chip SSL type encryption for the data moving on the device bus itself.

Apparently this was exactly what WD ran into with the Live, and therefore had to come out with the WD Live Plus with a chip that supported this SSL encryption on the chipset itself to get Netflix approved.

If WD had to jump through those hoops it is very hard for me to believe that Netflix will bend the rules for the Popbox.

I also believe that the statements Syabas employees have made that the 8643 chipset supporting premium content are patently false. How can they say this when they know the 8643 does not meet this strict SSL requirement that Netflix have?

It seems that they are hoping they can negotiate with Netflix to get this approved, perhaps in exchange for free in-box advertising, etc, but I think the chance of Netflix doing this are low, and the chance of an HD capable Netflix service on the Popbox are exactly zero.

Interesting. I've never heard of on chip SSL. Where did you read this?

-Chad
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post #733 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:13 AM
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What chip is in the WD Live +?

I think the old one was the 8655... Odd = no macrovision and less features...


Found the WD + may have the 8654 chip aka macrovision supported...
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post #734 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by dandirk View Post

I have not been able to find confirmation of what sigma chip is in the WD Live +. Everyone says its the chip with macosupport aka an "even" model #.

Everyone assumes the new chip was required for netflix, maybe it was but not for macrovision specifically?

arrrg If it comes out as true that the 8643 is the reason for no netflix then, I just don't know what to say. The results would be crooked, knowing deception of the customer. Hard to see any company being this blatent but you never know.

I know for certain I will only buy a popbox once netflix goes live and has good reports.

The WD Live+ has the Sigma 8654 which is apparently identical to the 8655 chipset in the regular WD Live with the exception of "security".

Again, this security appears to extend beyond Macrovision and includes some other things such as on-board encryption of the video, etc, which again makes it unlikely that Popteam are being truthful with us saying it can support premium content providers.

If I understand the SSL/encryption on these even numbered Sigma chipsets it would prevent someone from intercepting the HD video on the board itself and would force the output to only be available from an HDCP compliant display.

What this means in layman terms is that with the chipset on the Popbox you could arguably put a patch on the board that would allow you to steal the premium HD content from Hulu, Netflix or any other theoretical premium content provider, where as if they had used the 8642 that is used in the Dune this would not be possible.

It's understandable now why no Netflix support.

What's not understandable are Syabas statements that it has all needed hardware for premium content support.. This appears to be a blatant falsehood.
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post #735 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:15 AM
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Yes Damian, by all means open it! Let's hear your take on it.
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post #736 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by jethroz99 View Post

Interesting. I've never heard of on chip SSL. Where did you read this?

-Chad

Lots of discussion of this in the WD Live enthusiast forums. As indicated in this thread, it's more than "macrovision", it's an entire additional set of security protocols that make the stream more secure. Netflix for example does a handshake with the box and then the encrypted HD stream is decrypted on the box by the chip itself.. directly, with no middleman. Additionally the video would then be sent to the HDCP device with no possibility to intercept it anywhere in the middle.

http://community.wdc.com/t5/General-...Plus/m-p/28543
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post #737 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by dbone1026 View Post

Something is popping at the front door in an Amazon package, should I open the door????

Would love to see what you think about it.. especially in comparison to the Dune player you are supposed to be reviewing for us!
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post #738 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:18 AM
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Don't forget to put in the SD card ;-)
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post #739 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

.......... This appears to be a blatant falsehood.

Everything is conjecture at this point. No one has documented any specific info to prove one way or another.

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post #740 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by dandirk View Post

I have not been able to find confirmation of what sigma chip is in the WD Live +. Everyone says its the chip with macosupport aka an "even" model #.

Everyone assumes the new chip was required for netflix, maybe it was but not for macrovision specifically?

arrrg If it comes out as true that the 8643 is the reason for no netflix then, I just don't know what to say. The results would be crooked, knowing deception of the customer. Hard to see any company being this blatent but you never know.

I know for certain I will only buy a popbox once netflix goes live and has good reports.

8654

and here.
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post #741 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:25 AM
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I've said from the time of the announcement that a statement like "is able to support premium content applications" means nothing to me. "Support", doesn't have to encompass security; it could mean have the capability to stream. And "premium content applications"? That could be ANYTHING!

What people need is a statement that is more concrete, that specifically states where things stand, and why, in relation to Netflix. Syabas seems to be hiding behind the fact that on-going negotiations prevent them from speaking about it...but we don't even know if that's the case.

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post #742 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:26 AM
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and again it's all conjecture.

We don't know what requirements Netflix has, and i doubt anyone who deals with them is legally able to say what the whole process involved deals with.

Netflix certainly has the right to keep certain info about them and their processes proprietary.

Bottom line is at some point in the future PopBox will have to say either they will have Netflix or they will not. The only question is when.

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post #743 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:28 AM
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Everything is conjecture at this point. No one has documented any specific info to prove one way or another.

I'm not sure you can say that when there's clear info about the exact same chipset issues with other vendors.
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post #744 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by dbone1026 View Post

Something is popping at the front door in an Amazon package, should I open the door????

Don't open the door Damian, it's a trap. Remember you don't need the SD Card it's completely useless....
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post #745 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

So it is in fact the 8643 Sigma chipset. Thanks for posting up.

I am confused. Syabas have continually said that Macrovision support, etc, is not a problem for the Popbox but I'm also pretty sure that the 8643 chipset does not support the type of security that Netflix requires.

So, it would appear that Syabas is implying that at a later date Netflix will drop this requirement... something that appears hard for me to believe after WD had to come out with an entirely new product with a new chipset to get Netflix approved.

A couple of notes, Macrovision is a analog copy protection technology which is used on S-Video or Composite Vide. As the PopBox is HD only Macrovision is not used. PopBox does have CGMS-A protection on the component outputs.
So it indeed has all the necessary protection to support mutliple premium content services.
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post #746 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:36 AM
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Given the photo back on page 24 of this thread showing the underside of the board, is it possible that one of the other chips on that side is working in conjuntion with the SMP8643 to do SSL or whatever is required of Netflix streaming? Granted I would think that if you could do it with a 1 chip solution, why not, but maybe it was more cost effective to do it with 2 chips? Just wondering out loud...
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post #747 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:37 AM
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Anyone hoping for netflix with this has 30 days to realize its not going to happen. If Western Digital couldn't pull it off then there is no way Syabas can...
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post #748 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

I'm not sure you can say that when there's clear info about the exact same chipset issues with other vendors.


Those vendors boxes had composite and/or svideo outputs.
Which is what macrovision is for. The PopBox does not have any composite or Svideo outputs, so I have no idea how you can make that statement. The only clear info is that macrovision is for composite and Svideo. If a device does not have those outputs, what is the point of having macrovision protection?

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post #749 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popboxteam View Post

A couple of notes, Macrovision is a analog copy protection technology which is used on S-Video or Composite Vide. As the PopBox is HD only Macrovision is not used. PopBox does have CGMS-A protection on the component outputs.
So it indeed has all the necessary protection to support mutliple premium content services.

Wow; I have to say, this is the kind of transparency we've been crying about for months. Thanks PBT; some specifics (CGMS-A) and everything.

I know it's asking a lot...but are you prevented from even saying the word Netflix? No one's asking you at this point to say "it will have Netflix"; but are you not even allowed to say "it could support Netflix"?

Thanks for the update. Now, keep working on that 1.1 firmware

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post #750 of 3881 Old 07-19-2010, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popboxteam View Post

A couple of notes, Macrovision is a analog copy protection technology which is used on S-Video or Composite Vide. As the PopBox is HD only Macrovision is not used. PopBox does have CGMS-A protection on the component outputs.
So it indeed has all the necessary protection to support mutliple premium content services.

Are you saying that Macrovision is the only difference between 8643 and 8644 chipsets? From the information provided by WD and others it would appear that there are a lot of security differences outside of Macrovision.
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