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post #3121 of 6253 Old 01-07-2011, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by shin0bi23 View Post

Yes as I say IN the sound but inaudible.
theoretically you could subtract the signal if you know the exact signal. More likely would be to distort the signal so it wont be recognized.
presumably all this needs to much cpu to do on the fly so means reencding

No you can't subtract sound data even in theory. You can only filter certain frequencies when re-encoding the stream. These frequencies overlap the soundtrack so it would not be possible to retain all info even if the watermark is inaudible. This has already been explained by FilmMixer who does this for a living.
BTW here is the signal if you are interested http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...72#post1458772
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post #3122 of 6253 Old 01-07-2011, 03:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DoomBot View Post
So maybe there is still a chance but we need to wait and see.
"Chance" isn't good enough. Either it does or it doesn't. We need to know now, not 6 months down the road.
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post #3123 of 6253 Old 01-07-2011, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Bozzeta View Post
No you can't subtract sound data even in theory. You can only filter certain frequencies when re-encoding the stream. These frequencies overlap the soundtrack so it would not be possible to retain all info even if the watermark is inaudible. This has already been explained by FilmMixer who does this for a living.
BTW here is the signal if you are interested http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...72#post1458772
of course you can subtract sounddata especially in theory

what happens if you put a mono signal in reversed phase ans subtract it?
extract no sound at all.

point is it probably too difficult to determine what the data exactly is like so only other option is too filter which could possibly degrade the audio track

i'll check the link its interesting stuff
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post #3124 of 6253 Old 01-07-2011, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by shin0bi23 View Post
of course you can subtract sounddata especially in theory

what happens if you put a mono signal in reversed phase ans subtract it?
extract no sound at all.

point is it probably too difficult to determine what the data exactly is like so only other option is too filter which could possibly degrade the audio track

i'll check the link its interesting stuff
You beat me to it! If you overlay the exact same signal but in reverse phase it will cancel. One would have to have an exact sample of pattern and then inject it over the flag to cancel it. It would also have to be done digitally because even though the flag is an analog audio pattern, it resides digitally in the encoded audio file.

"In theory" you would have to know the pattern, scan for it in the source material, and then overlay the reverse phase pattern in the reincoded format. It's more of a hypothesis, really because it's not based on too many facts at this point.
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post #3125 of 6253 Old 01-07-2011, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by treefrog100 View Post
You beat me to it! If you overlay the exact same signal but in reverse phase it will cancel. One would have to have an exact sample of pattern and then inject it over the flag to cancel it. It would also have to be done digitally because even though the flag is an analog audio pattern, it resides digitally in the encoded audio file.

"In theory" you would have to know the pattern, scan for it in the source material, and then overlay the reverse phase pattern in the reincoded format. It's more of a hypothesis, really because it's not based on too many facts at this point.
This all sounds like too much work. Surely the "easiest" thing is to stop the streamer being able to recognise that Cinavia protection is present.
I'm guessing the streamer says "Hi there file, do you have Cinavia protection?" and the file responds "yes, I do. Display that horrible message to hack the user off and mute the sound for me please"
So, the correct response when the streamer asks should be "No, there's no Cinavia present here guv. Play me as normal"

Simple
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post #3126 of 6253 Old 01-07-2011, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by OnlyMe View Post
This all sounds like too much work. Surely the "easiest" thing is to stop the streamer being able to recognise that Cinavia protection is present.
I'm guessing the streamer says "Hi there file, do you have Cinavia protection?" and the file responds "yes, I do. Display that horrible message to hack the user off and mute the sound for me please"
So, the correct response when the streamer asks should be "No, there's no Cinavia present here guv. Play me as normal"

Simple
This is not a handshake protocol. The disc/file is not answering back. Its getting decoded by the player and there is information in the audio that the player will detect. Its happens frequently not just once and for example its already been shown that making crappy copies of movies with camcorders and portable audio recorders and dumbing them down to AM radio quality are still flagged when played back from the PS3. read the links posted here. There are currently some work arounds for the PS3 but they are focused on bugs of the PS3 and hacking the PS3.

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post #3127 of 6253 Old 01-07-2011, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by OnlyMe

This all sounds like too much work. Surely the "easiest" thing is to stop the streamer being able to recognise that Cinavia protection is present.
I'm guessing the streamer says "Hi there file, do you have Cinavia protection?" and the file responds "yes, I do. Display that horrible message to hack the user off and mute the sound for me please"
So, the correct response when the streamer asks should be "No, there's no Cinavia present here guv. Play me as normal"

Simple
If you dont want to alter the file it seems you would need to disable or hack the cinavia software so it would not ask the question "Hi there file, do you have Cinavia protection?"
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post #3128 of 6253 Old 01-08-2011, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

"Chance" isn't good enough. Either it does or it doesn't. We need to know now, not 6 months down the road.

This is exactly it!
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post #3129 of 6253 Old 01-08-2011, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by shin0bi23 View Post

If you dont want to alter the file it seems you would need to disable or hack the cinavia software so it would not ask the question "Hi there file, do you have Cinavia protection?"

it doesn't "ask", i think you have cinavia backwards.

The audio is sending out a message. If the player has cinavia it knows what that means and follows the instructions.

If the player doesn't have cinavia, it doesnt even 'hear' the cinavia message.

Example.

It's like only being able to understand english.

Imagine a movie scene. It shows a cafe where two italian people are having a conversation (in italian). There there is no english dialogue, and no subtitles. The two people have a 5 min conversation.

If you only speak english, you have no idea what they said.

However, your italian buddy roars out with laughter, because he understands the dialogue (the secret message!).

replace the italian audio with a cinavia "mute the audio" message, and that's as far as i understand it, the protection. You are a pre-cinavia media player, oblivious to whats going on, but content to do your job. Italian speaking people are effectively cinavia capable players.

P.s. - I am by no means stating that italians are as evil as cinavia.
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post #3130 of 6253 Old 01-08-2011, 02:56 AM
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Hello all

How about if Netgear implement 'Managed Copy'?

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=2894

Kevin
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post #3131 of 6253 Old 01-08-2011, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by lmaolmao View Post

It's like only being able to understand english.

Not entirely. In your example the english guy at least notices there's something going on. I think it is more like a radio broadcast where some information is sent as ultrasonic sound. You will not even notice there is anything but, e.g., a vampire will.

Which may as well be a result as evil as cinavia.
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post #3132 of 6253 Old 01-08-2011, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by treefrog100 View Post

You beat me to it! If you overlay the exact same signal but in reverse phase it will cancel. One would have to have an exact sample of pattern and then inject it over the flag to cancel it. It would also have to be done digitally because even though the flag is an analog audio pattern, it resides digitally in the encoded audio file.

"In theory" you would have to know the pattern, scan for it in the source material, and then overlay the reverse phase pattern in the reincoded format. It's more of a hypothesis, really because it's not based on too many facts at this point.

No that does not help. This is not a traditional watermark "ABCD"->"DCBA".
Its more of a pulse detection and it doesn't help to reverse or do anything but to remove it physically from the stream with reencoding. You can distort it by speeding up or down by certain amounts, but who wants to listen to a track in 2x speed? This thing is more advanced than any other protection out there... and could be used as a sleeper cell until activated. That's why you have to remove the detection in the player.
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post #3133 of 6253 Old 01-08-2011, 03:14 AM
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Hello all

How about if Netgear implement 'Managed Copy'?

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=2894

Kevin

That sounds more likely. Thanks for bringing a sense of calm to this panic stricken conversation
The only people with something to worry about should be the people who've got "illegal" copies of movies.
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post #3134 of 6253 Old 01-08-2011, 03:19 AM
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That sounds more likely. Thanks for bringing a sense of calm to this panic stricken conversation
The only people with something to worry about should be the people who've got "illegal" copies of movies.

Well not all of us lives in the States and the protection is already violating my rights as a consumer in my country. Has nothing to do with illegallity.
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post #3135 of 6253 Old 01-08-2011, 03:22 AM
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Well not all of us lives in the States and the protection is already violating my rights as a consumer in my country. Has nothing to do with illegallity.

Please explain? What does it have to do with living in the states and/or your consumer rights?
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post #3136 of 6253 Old 01-08-2011, 03:27 AM
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Please explain? What does it have to do with living in the states and/or your consumer rights?

The problem is that BDA/AACS protection is not individualized to each country. You have different rights as a consumer in your country, and I have mine. I am entitled to do backups to watch on my computer/extender or whatever. Protections is preventing me from practise my rights and should not be controled by someone else.
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Originally Posted by Bozzeta View Post

The problem is that BDA/AACS protection is not individualized to each country. You have different rights as a consumer in your country, and I have mine. I am entitled to do backups to watch on my computer/extender or whatever. Protections is preventing me from practise my rights and should not be controled by someone else.

But Cinavia is not stopping you from doing that. It is trying to stop "illegal copies" and they've already stated that making backup copies for your own use is not illegal no matter what country you live in.
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post #3138 of 6253 Old 01-08-2011, 04:31 AM
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Hello all

A snippit from the Link I posted above:

Video entertainment site Video Business has contacted the chairperson of the AACS Licensing Authority, Michael Ayers, who confirmed that virtually all Blu-ray discs released after the first quarter of 2010 will offer consumers the ability to make one full-resolution backup copy.

If these 'Backups' are playable on the Neo, or anyother Media Player then I do not honestly see this as being an issue, unless you get your Movies from 'Other' sources.

Kevin
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post #3139 of 6253 Old 01-08-2011, 04:35 AM
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If these 'Backups' are playable on the Neo, or anyother Media Player then I do not honestly see this as being an issue, unless you get your Movies from 'Other' sources.

Of course it is an issue, or do you really think anyone is going to re-rip all his BDs just for the sake of another stupid copy protection system.
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post #3140 of 6253 Old 01-08-2011, 04:45 AM
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Of course it is an issue, or do you really think anyone is going to re-rip all his BDs just for the sake of another stupid copy protection system.

But there are currently only half a dozen BDs that do have Cinavia protection. So, if they are the only BDs in your collection then yes, you will have to re-rip your whole collection.
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post #3141 of 6253 Old 01-08-2011, 04:53 AM
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Originally Posted by lmaolmao View Post

it doesn't "ask", i think you have cinavia backwards.

The audio is sending out a message. If the player has cinavia it knows what that means and follows the instructions.

If the player doesn't have cinavia, it doesnt even 'hear' the cinavia message.

Example.

It's like only being able to understand english.

Imagine a movie scene. It shows a cafe where two italian people are having a conversation (in italian). There there is no english dialogue, and no subtitles. The two people have a 5 min conversation.

Which may as well be a result as evil as cinavia.

you are right. i was responding too the post above so used the same anology. So we replace asks with asks itself "do I hear" principle remains the same

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No that does not help. This is not a traditional watermark "ABCD"->"DCBA".
Its more of a pulse detection and it doesn't help to reverse or do anything but to remove it physically from the stream with reencoding. You can distort it by speeding up or down by certain amounts, but who wants to listen to a track in 2x speed? This thing is more advanced than any other protection out there... and could be used as a sleeper cell until activated. That's why you have to remove the detection in the player.

point remains the same audio can be subtracted. if the exact waveform that is added is reversed in phase. the problem lies in determining what this waveform looks like and being able to reproduce it. And since it appears to be a complex modulation it unlike it will be figured out anytime soon. more easy approaches would be software "fixes" or mod chips.
needles to say netgear would seriously hurt their sales if they would implement this in the wrong way.
Best would be to be able to turn it on/off or only use it on external optical drives.
Or somehow "someone" is able too hack the firmware.

also it would be interesting to find out what file format it would "scan" if its only bdiso ripping to e.g. .mkv would already fix it
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post #3142 of 6253 Old 01-08-2011, 05:13 AM
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But Cinavia is not stopping you from doing that. It is trying to stop "illegal copies" and they've already stated that making backup copies for your own use is not illegal no matter what country you live in.

No its illegal to make personal backup copies in most countries (even if some parts of the law will let you). First you have to bypass the protection which is illegal, than you have copyright laws that does prevent you from doing so. That's is the whole point with DRM copy system so it can be controlled.
Besides even if you make a copy today, cinavia will prevent me from playing it even if the protection is intact. To only way cinavia is not detected is if its played from its original source or its been ported with some sort of DRM system.
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post #3143 of 6253 Old 01-08-2011, 05:24 AM
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No its illegal to make personal backup copies in most contries (even if some parts of the law will let you). First you have to bypass the protection which is illegal, than you have copyright laws that does prevent you from doing so. That's is the whole point with DRM copy system so it can be controlled.
Besides even if you make a copy today, cinavia will prevent me from playing it even if the protection is intact. To only way cinavia is not detected is if its played from its original source or its been ported with some sort of DRM system.

By "illegal copies" I was referring to those via torrents and those naff pirate discs you can buy. Normal "backup copies", whilst technically still illegal, are still permitted by Cinavia.
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I want to rip my discs to hard drives and then use a 2nd set of hard drives to create a backup in case a hard drive fails. I don't want to have to re-rip 50 Blu-Rays when a drive fails. Even though it is my own collection and will only ever be played in my own home, it sounds like I am going to be prevented from doing that.

We shouldn't have to rely on someone cracking the protection in order for us to be able to backup and playback our own movie collection.
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post #3145 of 6253 Old 01-08-2011, 05:38 AM
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By "illegal copies" I was referring to those via torrents and those naff pirate discs you can buy. Normal "backup copies", whilst technically still illegal, are still permitted by Cinavia.

I don't think we have the same definition of what a backup is. Digital data disc by the studio is not the same as a personal backup. Cinavia does not make any difference of what kind of source you are playing unless it's from the original bd-disc. If you want to make a bd-disc copy today with cinavia intact it will be detected. This can only be fixed with a new DRM-system.
Please go to doom9, slysoft or any other page and read up.
"Yes, we know for sure that full 1:1 BD rips with protection intact won't work on ANYTHING without AnyDVD enabled on it. Hence why it's called protection. "
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post #3146 of 6253 Old 01-08-2011, 05:40 AM
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I want to rip my discs to hard drives and then use a 2nd set of hard drives to create a backup in case a hard drive fails. I don't want to have to re-rip 50 Blu-Rays when a drive fails. Even though it is my own collection and will only ever be played in my own home, it sounds like I am going to be prevented from doing that.

We shouldn't have to rely on someone cracking the protection in order for us to be able to backup and playback our own movie collection.

That's an interesting question. I guess we'll have to wait and see how that scenario is handled.
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post #3147 of 6253 Old 01-08-2011, 05:44 AM
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I don't think we have the same definition of what a backup is. Digital data disc by the studio is not the same as a personal backup. Cinavia does not make any difference of what kind of source you are playing unless it's from the original bd-disc. If you want to make a bd-disc copy today with cinavia intact it will be detected. This can only be fixed with a new DRM-system.
Please go to doom9, slysoft or any other page and read up.
"Yes, we know for sure that full 1:1 BD rips with protection intact won't work on ANYTHING without AnyDVD enabled on it. Hence why it's called protection. "

Copied from another forum "Video entertainment site Video Business has contacted the chairperson of the AACS Licensing Authority, Michael Ayers, who confirmed that virtually all Blu-ray discs released after the first quarter of 2010 will offer consumers the ability to make one full-resolution backup copy."

So, someone doesn't know what they're talking about.
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post #3148 of 6253 Old 01-08-2011, 05:50 AM
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Copied from another forum "Video entertainment site Video Business has contacted the chairperson of the AACS Licensing Authority, Michael Ayers, who confirmed that virtually all Blu-ray discs released after the first quarter of 2010 will offer consumers the ability to make one full-resolution backup copy."

So, someone doesn't know what they're talking about.

Do you read what I write?... this is enforced on me and I do not live in the US. It's breaking my countries laws and that's it.
You have to buy a new blurayplayer and all your old blurays can not be made into backups. You will not be able to port this backup to every system in your home because of DRM and Cinavia.
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post #3149 of 6253 Old 01-08-2011, 05:53 AM
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Do you read what I write?... this is enforced on me and I do not live in the US. It's breaking my countries laws and that's it.
You have to buy a new blurayplayer and all your old blurays can not be made into backups. You will not be able to port this backup to every system in your home because of DRM and Cinavia.

What does this have to do with the US? Please tell us what the law allows in your country.
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post #3150 of 6253 Old 01-08-2011, 05:56 AM
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Hello all

From the Link I posted earlier:

Managed copies are possible on to various media: burned to writeable BDs or DVDs, downloaded on a Windows Media DRM-compatible portable player, hard drive or memory card, or as a bound copy, such as a digital copy file on the disc.

Ayers said he expects hardware manufacturers will add Managed Copy because it's something consumers have indicated they want. We think that consumers really do want the ability to use their content flexibly, he said.


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