Netgear NeoTV 550 - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 6246 Old 10-25-2010, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by OnlyMe View Post

What's the logic behind that?

First, a brief operational guide to the Neo. When browsing music, using the OK button will perform one of two possible operations depending on the mode the Neo is in. In Mode A, it will immediatly start playing the song. In Mode B it will add it to an "on the fly" playlist. This "on the fly" playlist creation is what first brought me to the EVA8000.

Also, when browsing music, the Play button can be used to innitiate music play. If you are highlighted on an album, it will start playing the full album, if in Mode A, or add to the playlist if in Mode B. If you highlight a Genre and hit play, it will play all the songs in that Genre.

If you are browsing by song titles, pressing Play will add everthing in the list from that point down (again, depending on Mode). So you might be in a song list based on Year, and pressing play would add all songs from the point in the list you were at.

Now, when doing gapless playback, apparently the Neo needs to know the length of the entire album for some unknown reason. This is why you can only get gapless playback by selecting the entire album to play. So basically for gapless playback, find the album you want, highlight it and hit PLAY on the remote.

Did that make sense? Sometimes the remote features aren't exactly consistant, but the OSD help to let you know what buttons do what.

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post #542 of 6246 Old 10-25-2010, 08:10 AM
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Thank you robkwil61. The behaviour seems entitrely consistent with my eva9150 (bar the gapless obviously) so at least I won't have to re-learn it all over again.
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post #543 of 6246 Old 10-25-2010, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Exactly.

Source Direct or equivalent is important since I have the iScan Duo to do the heavy lifting.
If you ever find a media player with that option, post or send me a PM.

At this time I use a PBO (Patriot Box Office), often on sale for ~$60 and there is a nice forum here and frequent updates.

http://www.patriotmemory.net/forums/...splay.php?f=14

BTW I purchased your Calibration disc several years ago and still use that.
Mostly with the Panasonic S97.

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post #544 of 6246 Old 10-25-2010, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catmother View Post

Source Direct or equivalent is important since I have the iScan Duo to do the heavy lifting.
If you ever find a media player with that option, post or send me a PM.

At this time I use a PBO (Patriot Box Office), often on sale for ~$60 and there is a nice forum here and frequent updates.

http://www.patriotmemory.net/forums/...splay.php?f=14

BTW I purchased you Calibration disc several years ago and still use that.
Mostly with the Panasonic S97.

Thanks. So far nothing does it. We thought the Sage HD300 did but now it's looking like it screws with the colorspace. Gets resolution and framerate passthrough anyway.

Obviously I have experience in video since I made probably the most popular calibration DVD (for SD material). But netgear developers don't know me and I don't know how much value they will assign to the request, if any.

One of the mods on Netgear's heavily moderated forum said he passed it along to the beta developers (or similar), and they basically said "thanks". No way to know if it will go anywhere from there.

So close, but not there yet boys.
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post #545 of 6246 Old 10-25-2010, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robkwil61 View Post

I don't think June Mizoguchi meant to be rude. I just think he has a poor command of the English language. And with that many posts, I'd say he has no life outside of forums.

Here's my favorite post:

There is no rudness at all.

Telling exactly someone someone who has not own who wants to raise a feature likely hood it willbe hard fulfill it via forum


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post #546 of 6246 Old 10-25-2010, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Thanks. So far nothing does it. We thought the Sage HD300 did but now it's looking like it screws with the colorspace. Gets resolution and framerate passthrough anyway.

Obviously I have experience in video since I made probably the most popular calibration DVD (for SD material). But netgear developers don't know me and I don't know how much value they will assign to the request, if any.

One of the mods on Netgear's heavily moderated forum said he passed it along to the beta developers (or similar), and they basically said "thanks". No way to know if it will go anywhere from there.

So close, but not there yet boys.

Hmmm, that's part way there, does anyone know if the Dune's built in BD drive would have the same problem?
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post #547 of 6246 Old 10-25-2010, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Stew4msu View Post

Here's my favorite post:

There is no rudness at all.

Telling exactly someone someone who has not own who wants to raise a feature likely hood it willbe hard fulfill it via forum


LOL this guy does not even have the slightest clue what he is talking about.
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post #548 of 6246 Old 10-25-2010, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ThomasG. View Post

LOL this guy does not even have the slightest clue what he is talking about.

Perhaps he's dyslexic as well as English not being his first language. Or perhaps he uses an on-line translator to translate his posts from his native tongue to English and we all know just how poor they are at translating.

Anyway, back to the point of this thread..............can one of the beta testers (or indeed anyone out there) tell me the rough power consumption of this device, in "on mode" as well as in "standby mode"? How does it compare to, say, the Boxee Box?
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post #549 of 6246 Old 10-25-2010, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnlyMe View Post

. . . tell me the rough power consumption of this device, in "on mode" as well as in "standby mode"?

If not, just the specs off of the wall-wart would tell us what the maximum might be.
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post #550 of 6246 Old 10-25-2010, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by MarkHotchkiss View Post

If not, just the specs off of the wall-wart would tell us what the maximum might be.

Good point although the wall-wart can also power the connected USB drives (a maximum of two?) so that would have to be factored in too.

Not sure how much the drives would need, 30+ watts, taking into account spin-up?

No idea really, just thinking out loud
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post #551 of 6246 Old 10-25-2010, 04:04 PM
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What does everyone use to tag their MKVs? Do you have a url for the tool? I think I've just decided on this unit as opposed to the boxee box, and want to prepare for it by tagging all my movies.

Thanks!

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post #552 of 6246 Old 10-25-2010, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by lmaolmao View Post

so you want a player with no OSD.......sounds great?

Gee, I guess you've never seen the Oppo BDP-83?
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post #553 of 6246 Old 10-25-2010, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterjcat View Post

It's naturally not possible for the player to just output the source directly, as the next stage in the chain won't understand it.

Of couse it will! The next stage is a video processor (much more powerful than the source). That's what it does!

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterjcat View Post

The player has to decode the source into a format that it can pass on.

The source already has a native format, e.g., 480i60.

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Originally Posted by peterjcat View Post

But this idea of the player as a pure transport is only a metaphor. . . .

Guess you've never seen the Oppo BDP-83, either?

For that matter, the two-year-old TViX M-6500A has a half-a$$ed native output.

Guess this has gone OT.
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post #554 of 6246 Old 10-26-2010, 12:24 AM
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I have indeed seen the Oppo. I am certainly not saying that source direct is impossible, or even less that it's undesirable. But some people seem to be assuming that it's possible for a player to merely read bits off a disc (or hard drive) and pass them on to the next stage. It is assuredly not. The source has a native format but that's not the storage format: the storage format is the VIDEO_TS with MPEG2, BDMV with MPEG2/AVC/VC1, and now all of the computer formats, MP4/AVI/MKV with every video codec under the sun, disregarding all of the audio. The player has to do a fair amount of work to decode these formats back into the 480i60 (or whatever) we know and love; and then it has to deal with its own output format, which isn't just 480i60 but these days generally also involves packing it all up for HDMI, which involves its own negotiation between the player and the next stage.

So you have to get from the disc or image (spatially and temporally compressed MPEG2) to the output (uncompressed 480i60 over HDMI) and that takes a decidedly non-trivial amount of effort -- of processing, in fact, though it's the kind of processing you want, not the kind you don't. Ideally this is all transparent to the source, so in the case of the Oppo we can call it "source direct" or "transport mode" but, as I say, that's a metaphor: it describes the result but not the process. There is a lot of processing and logic involved to ensure that the output is transparent to the source, and the Oppo is not a cheap or entry-level player by any means.

Which is all kind of OT, but might be useful to explain why adding a source direct mode is actually more complicated than NOT adding a source direct mode, though it might not seem that way if you treat the metaphor as reality (ie, you assume that all you need to do is read bits and pass them on). Again, it becomes even more complicated when you introduce the near-infinite variety of computer-based storage formats in every imaginable resolution which have no direct output format; and even harder to convince the streamer manufacturers when they're clearly going for the download market.

Personally I'm all for it, but we have to understand that it's a niche demand and not necessarily simple to implement.
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post #555 of 6246 Old 10-26-2010, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterjcat View Post

I have indeed seen the Oppo. I am certainly not saying that source direct is impossible, or even less that it's undesirable. But some people seem to be assuming that it's possible for a player to merely read bits off a disc (or hard drive) and pass them on to the next stage. It is assuredly not. The source has a native format but that's not the storage format: the storage format is the VIDEO_TS with MPEG2, BDMV with MPEG2/AVC/VC1, and now all of the computer formats, MP4/AVI/MKV with every video codec under the sun, disregarding all of the audio. The player has to do a fair amount of work to decode these formats back into the 480i60 (or whatever) we know and love; and then it has to deal with its own output format, which isn't just 480i60 but these days generally also involves packing it all up for HDMI, which involves its own negotiation between the player and the next stage.

So you have to get from the disc or image (spatially and temporally compressed MPEG2) to the output (uncompressed 480i60 over HDMI) and that takes a decidedly non-trivial amount of effort -- of processing, in fact, though it's the kind of processing you want, not the kind you don't. Ideally this is all transparent to the source, so in the case of the Oppo we can call it "source direct" or "transport mode" but, as I say, that's a metaphor: it describes the result but not the process. There is a lot of processing and logic involved to ensure that the output is transparent to the source, and the Oppo is not a cheap or entry-level player by any means.

Which is all kind of OT, but might be useful to explain why adding a source direct mode is actually more complicated than NOT adding a source direct mode, though it might not seem that way if you treat the metaphor as reality (ie, you assume that all you need to do is read bits and pass them on). Again, it becomes even more complicated when you introduce the near-infinite variety of computer-based storage formats in every imaginable resolution which have no direct output format; and even harder to convince the streamer manufacturers when they're clearly going for the download market.

Personally I'm all for it, but we have to understand that it's a niche demand and not necessarily simple to implement.

So windy! Uninformitive and pedantic, to boot. (If I weren't so polite, I'd reply "Duh!" or even "Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs.") You're merely repeating the obvious (presumably for the sake of argument, which has become tedious). Post-decode, the original container and codec are irrelevant. We're talking about routing the already decoded data stream--Did you miss that?--to output. None of the subsequent handling requires video processing. The HDMI tranceiver, for example, has nothing to do with deinterlacing, scaling, noise reduction, color-space conversion or any other aspect of what is commonly included under the rubric of "video processing." These processes must be performed somewhere; I want them done by my dedicated VP box. Do you even know what a video processor is?

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post #556 of 6246 Old 10-26-2010, 01:22 AM
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Hey, I'm just trying to explain what I mean, since your objections to my previous posts can only have come from some miscommunication along the way. I do understand what you're looking for, and I hope you find it!
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post #557 of 6246 Old 10-26-2010, 06:24 AM
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lsarver, hopefully it's not just us 2 Nashville boys who want it. . I'm not holding my breath on Netgear though. So far Sage HD300 *might* do what we want from the SD aspect. Looking into other options in a different thread. It's #3 on the Dune's feature wish list, but no commitment on whether they will do it or not. They did tell me verbally at CEDIA they were very aware of the need and were looking at it. Sage HD300 might have to be the least of evils workaround, if not the short term solution. Also brought Lumagen into the issue this morning. Still checking...

Cheers, Scott
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post #558 of 6246 Old 10-26-2010, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

lsarver, hopefully it's not just us 2 Nashville boys who want it. . I'm not holding my breath on Netgear though. So far Sage HD300 *might* do what we want from the SD aspect. Looking into other options in a different thread. It's #3 on the Dune's feature wish list, but no commitment on whether they will do it or not. They did tell me verbally at CEDIA they were very aware of the need and were looking at it. Sage HD300 might have to be the least of evils workaround, if not the short term solution. Also brought Lumagen into the issue this morning. Still checking...

Cheers, Scott

No, you're not alone. I think it'll be wanted by most HT people, not just because they have outboard processors but really because the VP's in 1080P displays have come such a long way that IMO, for most, it makes a heck of a lot of sense to have one VP do the work from a native digital feed.
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post #559 of 6246 Old 10-26-2010, 08:26 AM
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Can you guys please take your arguing about "source direct" and the discussion about "a rude poster" (occurring on another freakin' web site, no less) elsewhere? This thread has really become derailed over the last couple of days.
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post #560 of 6246 Old 10-26-2010, 11:21 AM
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This thread has really become derailed over the last couple of days.

Can't argue with you about that. But since we are still in a position of not having something real and in peoples hands to talk about, I would rather read their discussion on native output rather than have this turn into the Dune Smart thread where someone asks every day, "are they here yet? when are they going to ship? wah, I want mine now."

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post #561 of 6246 Old 10-26-2010, 11:28 AM
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So does today's official information release of the WDTV Live HUB and jakmal's review of it change anyone's mind about wanting the NTV 550? If so, in what way?
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post #562 of 6246 Old 10-26-2010, 11:38 AM
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So does today's official information release of the WDTV Live HUB and jakmal's review of it change anyone's mind about wanting the NTV 550? If so, in what way?

Ask yourself this question...what does the WDTV Live Hub bring to the table other than 1tb of internal storage? to me the NTV 550 seems like a much more mature and feature rich product. The real battle amongst enthusiasts will be between the NeoTV and the Boxee Box...
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post #563 of 6246 Old 10-26-2010, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Bryson777 View Post

Ask yourself this question...what does the WDTV Live Hub bring to the table other than 1tb of internal storage? to me the NTV 550 seems like a much more mature and feature rich product. The real battle amongst enthusiasts will be between the NeoTV and the Boxee Box...

i agree! I have my external TB with me, don't need external. This is amateurish, where their are selling us $100 TB internal drive that we might not need or buy some where else cheaper..loo
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post #564 of 6246 Old 10-26-2010, 11:48 AM
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yeah, this is my take on the competition

Boxee: Slickest UI (personal opinion), good codec support, best web experience
NTV550: Nice UI, excellent codec support (gapless audio, BD ISO full menu support), hopefully decent web experience (at least Netflix)
Dune players: worst UI out of the box, worst web experience, but codec support on par with the NTV550 and since it is more of an enthusiast product it may get more niche codec support in the future (just a guess).

I see the NTV550 standing alone for my needs (BD ISO and netflix in one box), with a nice UI.

I don't see anything the the new WDTV does that is better than these (except for price and of course, local storage)
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post #565 of 6246 Old 10-26-2010, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by robkwil61 View Post

It just means you have to select the whole album to play first...

Thanks for the answer. As I understand, you describe browsing music by some media library. But what in the case, if I don't want any indexing of media (and parsing for tags with creating media library), and just play folder (or play first file and next ones files in the folder)? In that mode playing will also be gapless or not? TIA.

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post #566 of 6246 Old 10-26-2010, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by treefrog100 View Post

So does today's official information release of the WDTV Live HUB and jakmal's review of it change anyone's mind about wanting the NTV 550? If so, in what way?

I read the Anandtech review and unless I interpreted it wrong, the WD Live Hub does not bitstream DTS HD from .m2ts or MKV. This is a bug in the current WD live that is supposed to be fixed in a firmware release that never seems to get out of beta. I think that tells me all I need to know about the Live Hub.

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post #567 of 6246 Old 10-26-2010, 01:58 PM
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I read the Anandtech review and unless I interpreted it wrong, the WD Live Hub does not bitstream DTS HD from .m2ts or MKV. This is a bug in the current WD live that is supposed to be fixed in a firmware release that never seems to get out of beta. I think that tells me all I need to know about the Live Hub.

No DTS-HD bitstreaming from any container because they don't have the license (this is official WD statement). I find it hard to believe, though. I am seeing many streamers which do passthrough and need licensing only for downmix ( It would be great if anyone in the know about DTS licensing clarifies this for me )

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post #568 of 6246 Old 10-26-2010, 02:03 PM
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Thanks for the answer. As I understand, you describe browsing music by some media library. But what in the case, if I don't want any indexing of media (and parsing for tags with creating media library), and just play folder (or play first file and next ones files in the folder)? In that mode playing will also be gapless or not? TIA.

If you are browsing in Live Folder mode, similar to Windows Explorer where you select the share, then the folders and subfolders, gapless will still be possible. The key is to highlight the folder that contains all the music files for that album, and hit PLAY on the highlighted album folder.

But honestly, other than being lazy or uneducated in the process, I can't see why anyone would not properly tag their music media. It makes the browsing process so much more fluent and gives you a much richer "digital jukebox" experience.

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post #569 of 6246 Old 10-26-2010, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by jakmal View Post

No DTS-HD bitstreaming from any container because they don't have the license (this is official WD statement). I find it hard to believe, though. I am seeing many streamers which do passthrough and need licensing only for downmix ( It would be great if anyone in the know about DTS licensing clarifies this for me )

Correct. To passthough a DTS audio track, no license is required. But if they are to downmix it to stereo, then a license is required. The 9150 never had a DTS license and all DTS audio was automatically passed through. It was the one audio setting you could not change in the setup menus.

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post #570 of 6246 Old 10-26-2010, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robkwil61 View Post

Correct. To passthough a DTS audio track, no license is required. But if they are to downmix it to stereo, then a license is required. The 9150 never had a DTS license and all DTS audio was automatically passed through. It was the one audio setting you could not change in the setup menus.

robkwil61, I can understand part of your statement, but do you have any information on whether the same is applicable to DTS-HD too?

WD has license for DTS downmix, but they say they have no license for DTS-HD passthrough. Shouldn't passthrough be enabled without licensing requirements? In the end, I find it hard to understand DTS licensing requirements:

1. If there is a downmix, then the DTS decoder must be coded in the firmware, and I understand if DTS wants money for it.

2. If the streamer is an AACS licensee, it automatically gets a DTS-HD license through Blu-Ray licensing, I guess.

3. In case of passthrough, it is clear that the end user is having some equipment which already has DTS-HD licensing for decode (the AV receiver). So, it looks like the consumer is getting burdened with 2 licensing costs if DTS were to require a license for passthrough also.

Ganesh T S
Sr. Editor, AnandTech Inc.
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