Apple TV owners' thread. - Page 178 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5311 of 7003 Old 09-21-2017, 09:23 AM
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Found another review calling out the forcing to HDR on everything.

They also have a suggestion to fix it: "There's an easy fix for the issue. Apple could enable a "native" mode that disables the 4K HDR conversion, and only serves up HDR for actual HDR videos. I suggested just such a measure and Apple's representatives said they'd consider it."

CNet Apple TV Review
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post #5312 of 7003 Old 09-21-2017, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benji888578 View Post
I came here after reading the verge review thinking no one saw it yet, ha, thanks tjcinnamon, you actually quoted more than I planned to.



One thing some people missed because he emphasized the automatic functions, yes, you can manually set it to 4K/30Hz for DV compatibility. I didn't see that 24Hz was possible, he stated that was not an option, not sure if apple is working on this or not.

I think most issues will be solved with future app updates, as I am sure the apps can take advantage of 4K/HDR, but, the HBO GO app he used as an example probably hasn't been updated yet, same app that is used on the ATV 1080p.

Some of his presumption is how it works right now, but, the app developers are continuously working on their apps, (channels are apps), and apple is always working on the software, pushing out updates fairly often. ...When the last ATV first came out, it had some limitations that were later improved upon via tvOS updates.

He indicated Apple is working on an Atmos solution, (again, DD & DD+ are the main audio options for any and all VOD/Streaming services, Atmos being delivered via lossy DD+), so, perhaps if we give them feedback, this will speed the process: https://www.apple.com/feedback/appletv.html

For those that didn't read the whole article, Apple is working on improving the experience: "The good news is Apple told me it’s continuing to refine the processing it’s doing with the goal of making HD SDR content look normal, and the Apple TV gets regular software updates, so it’s not an empty promise. But right now, if you just want to pass along an unmolested HD video feed, you’ll have to change the output settings of the entire system."

If you go back to the article, just below an ad is a screenshot likely missed, it shows a list of formats he can choose for his TV, (he's in europe, so he has 50/25Hz options instead of 60/30Hz).
Someone on Macrumors forums got their ATV and it does show a 4K HDR 24Hz option (he doesn't have DV so can't test if that's available with DV).

But why force HDR at all? There is zero need. This isn't new tech.
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post #5313 of 7003 Old 09-21-2017, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic4tKnight View Post
Found another review calling out the forcing to HDR on everything.

They also have a suggestion to fix it: "There's an easy fix for the issue. Apple could enable a "native" mode that disables the 4K HDR conversion, and only serves up HDR for actual HDR videos. I suggested just such a measure and Apple's representatives said they'd consider it."

CNet Apple TV Review
Hopefully this is what they intend to do. Sounds to me like Apple is nitpicking over the HDR flicker some TVs have when swtiching from SDR to HDR.
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post #5314 of 7003 Old 09-21-2017, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by kbmb View Post
Wow super disappointing. Looks like my new ATV will be used mainly for iTunes content only and the Roku will be used for everything else.
That's where I'm at, and why I'm considering cancelling my pre-order. Not sure it's worth it just for iTunes content (don't have much currently compared to VUDU).

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post #5315 of 7003 Old 09-21-2017, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benji888578 View Post
For those that didn't read the whole article, Apple is working on improving the experience: "The good news is Apple told me it’s continuing to refine the processing it’s doing with the goal of making HD SDR content look normal, and the Apple TV gets regular software updates, so it’s not an empty promise. But right now, if you just want to pass along an unmolested HD video feed, you’ll have to change the output settings of the entire system."

If you go back to the article, just below an ad is a screenshot likely missed, it shows a list of formats he can choose for his TV, (he's in europe, so he has 50/25Hz options instead of 60/30Hz).
Quote:
The good news is Apple told me it’s continuing to refine the processing it’s doing with the goal of making HD SDR content look normal
If their goal is to make SDR look normal then perhaps they should wait until it does look "normal" before forcing HDR on everything.
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post #5316 of 7003 Old 09-21-2017, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by kbmb View Post
Someone on Macrumors forums got their ATV and it does show a 4K HDR 24Hz option (he doesn't have DV so can't test if that's available with DV).



But why force HDR at all? There is zero need. This isn't new tech.


Then I can set it to 24Hz and forget it :-) If that's really possible and it's 23.976 not actually 24Hz, they can't be that clueless can they? Then they will sell a lot to JVC projector owners.
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post #5317 of 7003 Old 09-21-2017, 10:46 AM
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Here is what I want to know... If I am on an HDR10 only capable TV and the iTunes movie is DV, how do I know that the AppleTV is playing back the studio graded HDR10 metadata and not taking the SDR version and upscaling it? Upscaling everything to HDR suddenly makes everything questionable as to whether I am getting what was intended from the HDR titles.
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post #5318 of 7003 Old 09-21-2017, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Balthazar2k4 View Post
Here is what I want to know... If I am on an HDR10 only capable TV and the iTunes movie is DV, how do I know that the AppleTV is playing back the studio graded HDR10 metadata and not taking the SDR version and upscaling it? Upscaling everything to HDR suddenly makes everything questionable as to whether I am getting what was intended from the HDR titles.
I think that's a question no one knows yet. We don't know if DV titles in the iTunes store play with HDR10 if you don't have a DV set, or if they are like Vudu today via a Roku where you simply don't get any HDR data.

As for the box itself adding it's own HDR - that's a very good question. Although someone in the other thread just posted that there is a setting to turn off the HDR all the time - no link yet.
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post #5319 of 7003 Old 09-21-2017, 10:56 AM
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Any one know if you can ask siri to do something like "Open Video Settings" on the existing apple TV? That would make switching to a different mode that much quicker, no matter where you happen to be in the OS.
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post #5320 of 7003 Old 09-21-2017, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by jwort93 View Post
Any one know if you can ask siri to do something like "Open Video Settings" on the existing apple TV? That would make switching to a different mode that much quicker, no matter where you happen to be in the OS.
You can ask it to open settings and it will take you to the main settings page. Don't think you can specify a particular settings section though.
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post #5321 of 7003 Old 09-21-2017, 11:11 AM
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You can ask it to open settings and it will take you to the main settings page. Don't think you can specify a particular settings section though.
Darn, that's better than nothing though, thanks!
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post #5322 of 7003 Old 09-21-2017, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by LDBetaGuy View Post
Nope. I do not want everything converted to HDR. Mine will be returned.
Looks like that poorly written Verge article didn't not clarify that it can be turned off. It just needs to be done manually. Albeit stupid, I'm still going to get the device in hopes that they make auto-switching refresh rates (and HDR/SDR) available.

It also left the impression that LG OLEDs would not be able to use Dolby Vision which is false. They can but they need to set it to 30Hz.

That article was irresponsibly written and if I were an Apple engineer, I'd be pissed.

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post #5323 of 7003 Old 09-21-2017, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
Looks like that poorly written Verge article didn't not clarify that it can be turned off. It just needs to be done manually. Albeit stupid, I'm still going to get the device in hopes that they make auto-switching refresh rates (and HDR/SDR) available.

It also left the impression that LG OLEDs would not be able to use Dolby Vision which is false. They can but they need to set it to 30Hz.

That article was irresponsibly written and if I were an Apple engineer, I'd be pissed.
Could you elaborate? Is it easily turned off in the menu? Does it need to be turned off each time or does the setting hold once it is made?

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post #5324 of 7003 Old 09-21-2017, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by LDBetaGuy View Post
Could you elaborate? Is it easily turned off in the menu? Does it need to be turned off each time or does the setting hold once it is made?
I can't elaborate. But apparently it can be changed in the menu:



I have no idea if it keeps the setting.

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post #5325 of 7003 Old 09-21-2017, 03:23 PM
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Could you elaborate? Is it easily turned off in the menu? Does it need to be turned off each time or does the setting hold once it is made?
The settings "stick" but apparently that means you need to change it each time you go from HDR content to SDR content and then back, etc. The intended use, according to the article, is to "set and forget" and not go into the settings menu each time you play something different and change the default output for all content.

Needless to say, having a "native" output setting would negate the need to either manually go into the settings menu each time you watch a different kind of content or to accept that everything is getting scaled to one standard.
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post #5326 of 7003 Old 09-21-2017, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
I can't elaborate. But apparently it can be changed in the menu:



I have no idea if it keeps the setting.
Thanks for reposting that photo. Seeing 24hz mentioned there for 4k content gives me hope.

I think it's dumb to need to manually change that setting to get the best quality from different content types, but I'm a geek and will put up with that, if it works.
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post #5327 of 7003 Old 09-21-2017, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Thanks for reposting that photo. Seeing 24hz mentioned there for 4k content gives me hope.

I think it's dumb to need to manually change that setting to get the best quality from different content types, but I'm a geek and will put up with that, if it works.
Me too! I'm actually going to buy the damn thing

Maybe the will allow auto-switching. I just hope netflix will tell me what's available in HDR when I have it in SDR mode. Also, I hope netflix will tell me when something is 30Hz or 24Hz so I know what to set it at (perhaps another reason why auto-switching is important).

I think sports upconverted to HDR may look cool.

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Guy’s,
The pic with the formats is cut off? It does 4k HDR and Dolby Vision at 60HZ. Sorry if I am misunderstanding the prob. I only mentioned this because of the post about Dolby Vision on the LG Oled can only be viewed as DV 30hz.

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post #5329 of 7003 Old 09-21-2017, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
Looks like that poorly written Verge article didn't not clarify that it can be turned off. It just needs to be done manually. Albeit stupid, I'm still going to get the device in hopes that they make auto-switching refresh rates (and HDR/SDR) available.

It also left the impression that LG OLEDs would not be able to use Dolby Vision which is false. They can but they need to set it to 30Hz.

That article was irresponsibly written and if I were an Apple engineer, I'd be pissed.

How so? It clearly states you have to "change the system wide setting" if you want to "play an unmolested fee". It even has a big picture of all the different refresh rates/color space modes. I fail to see how this is confusing.
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post #5330 of 7003 Old 09-21-2017, 05:01 PM
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Guy’s,

The pic with the formats is cut off? It does 4k HDR and Dolby Vision at 60HZ. Sorry if I am misunderstanding the prob. I only mentioned this because of the post about Dolby Vision on the LG Oled can only be viewed as DV 30hz.



Regards,

Jeff


I’m sure what it was showing was the available formats for the TV it was connect to. Newer LGs do 60hz hdr but older models may not.


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post #5331 of 7003 Old 09-22-2017, 12:04 AM
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Reposting in this thread also

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post #5332 of 7003 Old 09-22-2017, 04:32 AM
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Just finished reading some of the reviews and am excited to get mine today. I think the manual switching between resolutions is a good compromise between avoiding flicker while navigating the UI and having the ability to choose the best output for your TV, for the content your watching.

I do wish Atmos was there day one and hope they add it sooner than later. In fact I’ll probably hold off buying or renting any HDR content until they fix that.


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Just finished reading some of the reviews and am excited to get mine today. I think the manual switching between resolutions is a good compromise between avoiding flicker while navigating the UI and having the ability to choose the best output for your TV, for the content your watching.

I do wish Atmos was there day one and hope they add it sooner than later. In fact I’ll probably hold off buying or renting any HDR content until they fix that.


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Once you have it could let me know if:

Is there a way to see what the frame rate is of the content you are watching? For example, if I’m turning on a Netflix movie how can I tell if it’s 30p or 24p? That will help me set the resolution.
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post #5334 of 7003 Old 09-22-2017, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
Once you have it could let me know if:



Is there a way to see what the frame rate is of the content you are watching? For example, if I’m turning on a Netflix movie how can I tell if it’s 30p or 24p? That will help me set the resolution.


If you can't see the difference then it doesn't matter.

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Quick question. Until my AVR gets its Dolby Vision updates in 2018 I’m stuck making a choice that either compromises audio or video. I can use Dolby Vision if I go straight to my TV and use ARC audio. Or loose Dolby Vision and use the PCM audio the Apple TV puts out. From what I’ve read I’ll lose Dolby Digital Plus. I don’t have 7.1 so loosing that part doesn’t matter. Will loosing DD+ on the Apple TV and a 5.1 system degrade audio over letting it output the PCM stream it does when hooked straight to my AVR. I’m just not sure if the DD+ comes in at a better bitrate and the ATV has to down sample it for regular DD, or if in the ATV case it’s mostly to just add 7.1. I hate having to make these compromises. Wish Denon would just get that update out.
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Apple TV owners' thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick98761 View Post
Quick question. Until my AVR gets its Dolby Vision updates in 2018 I’m stuck making a choice that either compromises audio or video. I can use Dolby Vision if I go straight to my TV and use ARC audio. Or loose Dolby Vision and use the PCM audio the Apple TV puts out. From what I’ve read I’ll lose Dolby Digital Plus. I don’t have 7.1 so loosing that part doesn’t matter. Will loosing DD+ on the Apple TV and a 5.1 system degrade audio over letting it output the PCM stream it does when hooked straight to my AVR. I’m just not sure if the DD+ comes in at a better bitrate and the ATV has to down sample it for regular DD, or if in the ATV case it’s mostly to just add 7.1. I hate having to make these compromises. Wish Denon would just get that update out.


The audio difference would be noticeable to me. You would still get hdr but lose Dolby vision. DV is better. I think ultimately you'll just have to try both ways and see what you're happier with.

Which year denon do you have? The 2016 models were just updated.

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post #5337 of 7003 Old 09-22-2017, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by rick98761 View Post
Quick question. Until my AVR gets its Dolby Vision updates in 2018 I’m stuck making a choice that either compromises audio or video. I can use Dolby Vision if I go straight to my TV and use ARC audio. Or loose Dolby Vision and use the PCM audio the Apple TV puts out. From what I’ve read I’ll lose Dolby Digital Plus. I don’t have 7.1 so loosing that part doesn’t matter. Will loosing DD+ on the Apple TV and a 5.1 system degrade audio over letting it output the PCM stream it does when hooked straight to my AVR. I’m just not sure if the DD+ comes in at a better bitrate and the ATV has to down sample it for regular DD, or if in the ATV case it’s mostly to just add 7.1. I hate having to make these compromises. Wish Denon would just get that update out.
hdfury would help your situation (will be in the same boat with the xbox x)
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post #5338 of 7003 Old 09-22-2017, 06:26 AM
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The audio difference would be noticeable to me. You would still get hdr but lose Dolby vision. DV is better. I think ultimately you'll just have to try both ways and see what you're happier with.

Which year denon do you have? The 2016 models were just updated.
2015 model
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post #5339 of 7003 Old 09-22-2017, 06:59 AM
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Just picked up an Apple TV 4K and will plug it in this afternoon - excited to have an gigabit Ethernet port instead of what was on the previous generation.

Also looking forward to seeing how the upscaling compares to my current setup: Apple TV to Denon 6400 to Sony A1E which is pretty great.

Still waiting for Android TV to update to DV

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post #5340 of 7003 Old 09-22-2017, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archer75 View Post
If you can't see the difference then it doesn't matter.
I can see the difference. anything not at native has a subtle judder to it.

Marantz 7010 for 7.2.4
2 x Paradigm Prestige 75F's
1 x Paradigm Prestige 55C
8 x Paradigm CI Pro P65-R's
Sub 2 x Rythmik LVX12's
TV: LG 65B6
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