Apple TV owners' thread. - Page 199 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5941 of 6869 Old 10-01-2017, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by akadennis View Post
Really, which ones? Cause I still see several at $30 such as Transformers the last knight where apple has this for $20. Ghost in a shell is another one for 30 bucks on VUDU.
That's right, they seem to just lower the older titles and the newer ones are still higher than Apple.

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post #5942 of 6869 Old 10-01-2017, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by lujan View Post
That's right, they seem to just lower the older titles and the newer ones are still higher than Apple.
Wow, THE HOUSE is $30 bucks, 15 on ITUNES. Not that I want to buy that movie but this is crazy.
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post #5943 of 6869 Old 10-01-2017, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by akadennis View Post
Really, which ones? Cause I still see several at $30 such as Transformers the last knight where apple has this for $20. Ghost in a shell is another one for 30 bucks on VUDU.
Many of the Universal and WB movies. 62 movies in total.

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post #5944 of 6869 Old 10-01-2017, 11:48 AM
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Ok: first time ATV owner long time shield owner

Siri support is really limited. So I can’t turn on the Apple TV from my phone? I can play pause but volume says “you must use the remote”

I really like a shield but wanted the nice iOS integration and a HomeKit hub. Google assistant is night and day over this so far

The picture looks great

Oh no plex hdr

No native HDHomeRun app either!

I really want to like this as I need HomeKit to work when I leave my house and feel dumb for buying a atv just for that


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post #5945 of 6869 Old 10-01-2017, 11:59 AM
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Some observations using the developer overlay to show video resolution/bitrate, etc.

I have one movie in my library that was upgraded to 4K, Star Trek Beyond. My download bandwidth (as reported by the AppleTV is 85Mbps).

I get a 1002x416 HDR stream at about 1.5Mbps. The HDR is nice, but clearly not 4K and barely HDTV quality.

If I turn Quick Start off in the App settings, I get an 853x352 SDR stream, again at about 1.5Mbps Huh?

Pretty much a case of not knowing what you'll get when you hit play.

I tested Netflix and it easily streamed HDR at 15+Mbps.
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post #5946 of 6869 Old 10-01-2017, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry, I’m saying their 4K streams are adaptive and can drop below 4K.
Well I was hopeless confused. Sorry about that. The good news is now I'm completely confused.
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post #5947 of 6869 Old 10-01-2017, 03:44 PM
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Angry Terrible picture

Last weekend I rented "Going in Style" from iTunes and watched it on my 4th generation Apple TV; the picture was terrible. I assumed it was just that particular movie. This weekend I rented "The Big Sick" from iTunes, and the picture was also terrible. Since I didn't want to rent them again, but did want to see how they looked if I had rented them from Amazon, I watched the trailers from Amazon on both a Tivo Roamio and an Amazon Fire TV (2nd generation); the picture was just fine on both devices.

My Apple TV is set at 1080p, so I wonder what is wrong with iTunes/Apple TV video?
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post #5948 of 6869 Old 10-01-2017, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
Looks like VUDU is taking on Apple. They just lowered the price on several of their UHD movies. Many are now at $14.99
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Originally Posted by cydeweyz View Post
They are not taking on anyone. Vudu succumbing to competition. I suspect they won’t ignore its HDR10 issue any longer.
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Originally Posted by cydeweyz View Post
Vudu sent an email about pricing this morning. Too little too late. Also it didn’t mention free updates hdx titles either.
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That's right, they seem to just lower the older titles and the newer ones are still higher than Apple.
Vudu doesn’t unilaterally set the price of new releases. The studios must agree. Apple was better at negotiation. But even they couldn’t convince every studio.

That is why they don’t offer everything at $20. Such as: Disney didn’t agree.

Hopefully the alleged Vudu contract with Dolby ends soon so that hdr10 shows up.

The competition will be good but Vudu is suddenly very far behind.

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post #5949 of 6869 Old 10-01-2017, 04:04 PM
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Apple TV owners' thread.

My ATV 4k VUDU app is now outputting Spider-Man Homecoming in 4k DolbyVision ... confirmed in my display settings on a Vizio P75

It appears all the DV titles are now working in 4k DV !! Outstanding!

(Retracting .... clearly not the same files on the ATV side now that I’ve done some comparisons).


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post #5950 of 6869 Old 10-01-2017, 04:09 PM
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That’s cool. But:

You realize the ATV5 upscales everything so even an SD movie from Vudu would show up that way on the screen right?
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post #5951 of 6869 Old 10-01-2017, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasfxlt View Post
My ATV 4k VUDU app is now outputting Spider-Man Homecoming in 4k DolbyVision ... confirmed in my display settings on a Vizio P75

It appears all the DV titles are now working in 4k DV !! Outstanding!


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How do you know for sure? if you set the ATV to output DV, it would output everything from VUDU in DV.
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post #5952 of 6869 Old 10-01-2017, 04:29 PM
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Yeah, my error. Comparing files now vs the VUDU app casting to the Viz via chromecast and it’s not the same file on the ATV side. Gamut is off.


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post #5953 of 6869 Old 10-01-2017, 05:15 PM
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@bodosom me too. I?m trying to piece the small pieces from Apple with the much better data from Dolby.

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post #5954 of 6869 Old 10-01-2017, 08:01 PM
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Quick question here...

I'm deciding between the 65" LG OLED and the 75" Sony XBR900e. I've read that Sony's upscaling of content is the best or among the best. I seem to agree as the Sony's I see just seem to look better when watching stuff like football broadcasts. I hear that this is the one disadvantage of the LG OLED when compared to the Sony. Now, I exclusively watch everything on my 4k Apple TV. With the Apple TV 4k outputting the 4k HDR signal at all times, does that mean that the TV is not doing any upscaling of its own, thus rendering that disadvantage irrelevant?
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post #5955 of 6869 Old 10-01-2017, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ASpinella23 View Post
I have a new atv 4K and I am getting horrendous sound quality on my Vudu app. I thought maybe it was the atv cause what I “tested” on Netflix wasn’t much better however it was Narcos 8 used so maybe someth8 go with more action. I watched scenes from Deadpool on VUDU and it was very flat and muffled.
Yes, I’m seeing the audio issue with Vudu app too.
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post #5956 of 6869 Old 10-01-2017, 09:16 PM
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Serious "Show-stopper" issue with AppleTV 4K

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Originally Posted by bigjeep127 View Post
Quick question here...

I'm deciding between the 65" LG OLED and the 75" Sony XBR900e. I've read that Sony's upscaling of content is the best or among the best. I seem to agree as the Sony's I see just seem to look better when watching stuff like football broadcasts. I hear that this is the one disadvantage of the LG OLED when compared to the Sony. Now, I exclusively watch everything on my 4k Apple TV. With the Apple TV 4k outputting the 4k HDR signal at all times, does that mean that the TV is not doing any upscaling of its own, thus rendering that disadvantage irrelevant?
Allow me to use your post to point out to everyone reading this thread a "show-stopper" issue with the AppleTV 4K. You must set the video mode in the ATV Settings. If you wand to play UHD/HDR content, then the video mode must be set to one of the 4K HDR modes (e.g. 4K HDR/60Hz). This will play your UHD/HDR content correctly. However, if the next content you select is NOT HDR, the ATV 4K will output an HDR signal anyway. IOW, it is doing some type of interpolation to "manufacture" a BT2020 HDR signal from a signal which has no HDR content. THIS IS VERY WRONG!

So, what you need to do with the new AppleTV 4K is to manually set the video mode to the correct one before you play any content on the device. If the content is 1080p, then set the ATV to 1080p to prevent it from up-scaling. If the content is 4K SDR, then set the ATV to 4K SDR to avoid the "fake" HDR signal. IMO, having to pre-select the video mode is a bug serious to be called a show-stopper, and will likely mean that I will be returning the device very soon.

Finally, to answer your question, I think you should always let the Sony Bravia up-scaler do the scaling, whether the content is coming from the AppleTV 4K, your cable or satellite box, or your DVD/Blu-ray player. Just be advised that for the AppleTV 4K, this is a manual setting for everything you view.
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post #5957 of 6869 Old 10-01-2017, 09:55 PM
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Oh no plex hdr
Give Infuse a shot. It doesn't support HDR quite yet, but will very shortly. I vastly prefer it to Plex.
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post #5958 of 6869 Old 10-02-2017, 02:19 AM
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Why everybody is complaining about the ATV 4K 1080p upscaling? I own a ks8000 which is known for its very good upscaler and i don't notice any differences between the two. Am I missing something?
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post #5959 of 6869 Old 10-02-2017, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
Why everybody is complaining about the ATV 4K 1080p upscaling? I own a ks8000 which is known for its very good upscaler and i don't notice any differences between the two. Am I missing something?
Have to agree with you, I own a Sony XBR and have tested "scaling" both ways with the Shield TV and the ATV 4K. There is little to no difference in PQ. There is very little content on itunes that is actually HDR. I just set the unit to output 4KSDR 60Hz and get on with life. This whole fiasco (even tho apple is wrong) is way overblown in my estimation.
Note to "Austinjerry"- keep the ATV as I believe it will give you everything you need in the long run (Amazon) plus cheaper movies in itunes that can not be had elsewhere. PS: Been awhile since the 65X900A thread huh .
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post #5960 of 6869 Old 10-02-2017, 05:42 AM
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Why everybody is complaining about the ATV 4K 1080p upscaling? I own a ks8000 which is known for its very good upscaler and i don't notice any differences between the two. Am I missing something?
I think you are missing the most important point of my post. Sure, it is acceptable to let the AppleTV 4K upscale 1080p to 4K SDR, especially if you think it does as good a job as the display. But what is not OK is if the ATV outputs non-HDR content as if it were HDR, using BT.2020. The ATV should detect whether the video stream is HDR or not, and output the correct signal accordingly. If you want to be responsible for manaually changing the video settings in the ATV depending on whether the source is HDR or not, then you are more tolerable of a serious flaw than I am.
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post #5961 of 6869 Old 10-02-2017, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I think you are missing the most important point of my post. Sure, it is acceptable to let the AppleTV 4K upscale 1080p to 4K SDR, especially if you think it does as good a job as the display. But what is not OK is if the ATV outputs non-HDR content as if it were HDR, using BT.2020. The ATV should detect whether the video stream is HDR or not, and output the correct signal accordingly. If you want to be responsible for manaually changing the video settings in the ATV depending on whether the source is HDR or not, then you are more tolerable of a serious flaw than I am.
As I noted- Apple is wrong in their implementation . This may change with the amount of flak they are getting..
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post #5962 of 6869 Old 10-02-2017, 06:34 AM
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I hate to ask this question, but HDMI cable do I need to use for the ATV and a Sony X900e? I have tried 2 different brand "Certified Premium" that I bought from Amazon and neither got past 4:2:0. At 4:2:2, I could see sparkles. I am using the Amazon Basics, and that has me at 4:2:2, but I'd like to achieve 4:4:4.
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post #5963 of 6869 Old 10-02-2017, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
Why everybody is complaining about the ATV 4K 1080p upscaling? I own a ks8000 which is known for its very good upscaler and i don't notice any differences between the two. Am I missing something?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggw2000 View Post
Have to agree with you, I own a Sony XBR and have tested "scaling" both ways with the Shield TV and the ATV 4K. There is little to no difference in PQ. There is very little content on itunes that is actually HDR. I just set the unit to output 4KSDR 60Hz and get on with life. This whole fiasco (even tho apple is wrong) is way overblown in my estimation.
Note to "Austinjerry"- keep the ATV as I believe it will give you everything you need in the long run (Amazon) plus cheaper movies in itunes that can not be had elsewhere. PS: Been awhile since the 65X900A thread huh .
Gerry
Glad you found a setup that works for you. I bought the ATV5 in order to watch HDR and WCG content whenever available, and that means about half the content I watch on it. Leaving HDR off completely defeats the value of the device. I'd get the more stable cheaper performance from the ATV4 (not 4k). In fact, I use one on my non HDR set and it's awesome.

For people who want to watch HDR -- which I would think it most people who buy the ATV5, otherwise why spend the money? -- this upscaling issue is not about upscaling to 2160p. The larger problem is that it is also transforming SDR to HDR and to a different color space.

In theory, this COULD work okay on professional grade equipment:

SDR in -> inverse 1886 EOTF -> 3x3 matrix conversion from Rec. 709 to Rec. 2020 -> relative to absolute luminance scaling -> 2084 EOTF -> HDR out

In practice, there are lot of ways this can fail.

First they may be trying to enhance or goose up the SDR content, like the "feature" on some TV sets, meaning you never get to see what the content creators intended.

But let's assume they are trying to maintain the original content within this larger container.

This relies on assumptions about how SDR content is mastered (which are usually true).

The trouble is, even if all that is true, the way many (or even most) TV's handle HDR these days is not perfect.

These days, even cheap TV's can track 709 and SDR (1886) perfectly, but many fudge on how well they track HDR 2084 and rec 2020. Should our TV's get it right? Sure. And one day they may and then the ATK4K approach of up converting everything could work better.

For now, in the real world, Apple's approach means SDR content (unconverted by Apple for all displays) will look less accurate than simply feeding SDR 1886 and rec709 color to the same display.

And I think this will be the case for several years to come. Flat panels may get good enough to mitigate this in a few years.

In addition to not tracking HDR as well as SDR, they also compromise by doing things like maxing out their backlight and contrast when getting an HDR signal, meaning for this upconverted content, which doesn't need the max lumens, the black floor is raised and the effective contrast of SDR material is also greatly diminished when watching it as upconverted content.

You paid for those great black levels and Apple has taken them away.

So it's a trifecta: color is wrong, gamma is wrong, and black levels are raised & contrast is compromised.

And for projector owners it's even worse, since you are probably burning up your lamp in high lamp mode in HDR mode, unnecessarily with SDR content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I think you are missing the most important point of my post. Sure, it is acceptable to let the AppleTV 4K upscale 1080p to 4K SDR, especially if you think it does as good a job as the display. But what is not OK is if the ATV outputs non-HDR content as if it were HDR, using BT.2020. The ATV should detect whether the video stream is HDR or not, and output the correct signal accordingly. If you want to be responsible for manaually changing the video settings in the ATV depending on whether the source is HDR or not, then you are more tolerable of a serious flaw than I am.
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As I noted- Apple is wrong in their implementation . This may change with the amount of flak they are getting..
Gerry
Yep the workaround is manually adjusting settings each time you watch a different kind of content. That works, but it's getting old. I too hope Apple gives us the option to pass through native content.

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post #5964 of 6869 Old 10-02-2017, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericthemidget View Post
I hate to ask this question, but HDMI cable do I need to use for the ATV and a Sony X900e? I have tried 2 different brand "Certified Premium" that I bought from Amazon and neither got past 4:2:0. At 4:2:2, I could see sparkles. I am using the Amazon Basics, and that has me at 4:2:2, but I'd like to achieve 4:4:4.
There is unlikely an advantage of 4:4:4 and as you can see, some liability.

That said, how long is your run (or both RUNS if you have a receiver in between)? More than 20 to 25' total and you probably need to go optical HDMI Premium Certified.

What are the Premium Certified cables that failed?

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post #5965 of 6869 Old 10-02-2017, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjeep127 View Post
Quick question here...

I'm deciding between the 65" LG OLED and the 75" Sony XBR900e. I've read that Sony's upscaling of content is the best or among the best. I seem to agree as the Sony's I see just seem to look better when watching stuff like football broadcasts. I hear that this is the one disadvantage of the LG OLED when compared to the Sony. Now, I exclusively watch everything on my 4k Apple TV. With the Apple TV 4k outputting the 4k HDR signal at all times, does that mean that the TV is not doing any upscaling of its own, thus rendering that disadvantage irrelevant?
With the current way the ATV5 works, yes, if you don't manually change it, it will simply output HDR 2160p rec2020 all the time and your TV will have little work to do.

Apple MIGHT change this in the future.

So choose the TV that looks best to you, and don't worry about what the ATV is doing. If size matters, the choice is obvious.

If you want an additional objective data point, choose the one that tracks rec2020 (WCG as far as P3) and 2084 EOTF (HDR) the best.

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post #5966 of 6869 Old 10-02-2017, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericthemidget View Post
I hate to ask this question, but HDMI cable do I need to use for the ATV and a Sony X900e? I have tried 2 different brand "Certified Premium" that I bought from Amazon and neither got past 4:2:0. At 4:2:2, I could see sparkles. I am using the Amazon Basics, and that has me at 4:2:2, but I'd like to achieve 4:4:4.
I use these cables for all my UHD/HDR sources:

https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_...seq=1&format=2
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post #5967 of 6869 Old 10-02-2017, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
There is unlikely an advantage of 4:4:4 and as you can see, some liability.

That said, how long is your run (or both RUNS if you have a receiver in between)? More than 20 to 25' total and you probably need to go optical HDMI Premium Certified.

What are the Premium Certified cables that failed?
"Certified Premium" HDMI cables I got from Amazon (Terra Grand) and SecurOMax) both 6'
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post #5968 of 6869 Old 10-02-2017, 07:14 AM
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Yeah, my error. Comparing files now vs the VUDU app casting to the Viz via chromecast and it’s not the same file on the ATV side. Gamut is off.
I tested the Vudu app the other day and while the app indicated I own the "UHD" version of my various titles, using the developer overlay I can confirm the source resolution of those movies are 1080p and the ATV is upscaling to 2160p HDR.
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post #5969 of 6869 Old 10-02-2017, 07:15 AM
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I tested the Vudu app the other day and while the app indicated I own the "UHD" version of my various titles, using the developer overlay I can confirm the source resolution of those movies are 1080p and the ATV is upscaling to 2160p HDR.
If you use the pulldown during playback, you can confirm the same.
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Sony XBR75X940C Samsung UBD K8500
My Recommended Daytime Settings Apps(Video), My Recommended Daytime Settings Apps, My non-HDR and HDR Settings, Setting HDMI to show no overscan
Sony XBR75X940C, Samsung UBD K8500, Roku Ultra, DirecTV RVU and C61K, Chromecast Ultra
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post #5970 of 6869 Old 10-02-2017, 07:16 AM
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I can't find any Terra Grandor SecurOMax which are Premium Certified by the HDMI org.

Can you share a link?
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