Can anything Out-Roku the Roku? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 30 Old 01-09-2011, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Suntan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 7,099
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 31
I've got about $100 to $150 sitting in my pocket.

I've got a plasma in the livingroom that doesn't have HDMI, so I need an internet streamer that supports component.

I've got a Sage extender at the TV already, so I have no need for local network playback. I only need internet based playback. Right now, the main contender is a Roku XDS w/ a component cable for $110.

Is there anything out there that offers better internet content playback features in this price range.

-Suntan
Suntan is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 30 Old 01-09-2011, 09:19 PM
Member
 
eTerNiTyw2o4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 23
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Why not get something that can do both that way you only have 1 box instead of 2 on your tv stand? And personally I would wait. The newer technologies will probably be out soon.
eTerNiTyw2o4 is offline  
post #3 of 30 Old 01-10-2011, 12:30 AM
Advanced Member
 
sgvroadster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 571
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
After what I saw at CES 2011... Internet TV seems like it can out-ROku the Roku... and some new RealTek chipset media players with NetFlix and VOD...

Cheers!

Cameron
sgvroadster is offline  
post #4 of 30 Old 01-10-2011, 06:52 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Suntan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 7,099
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by eTerNiTyw2o4 View Post
Why not get something that can do both that way you only have 1 box instead of 2 on your tv stand? And personally I would wait. The newer technologies will probably be out soon.
Because I don't have a compulsion for just one device, and I'm not going to find anything else that can do in one box, what a Sage extender and a low cost internet player can do.

-Suntan
Suntan is offline  
post #5 of 30 Old 01-10-2011, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Suntan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 7,099
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgvroadster View Post
After what I saw at CES 2011... Internet TV seems like it can out-ROku the Roku... and some new RealTek chipset media players with NetFlix and VOD...
Any particular notables? I haven't really paid attention to CES.

-Suntan
Suntan is offline  
post #6 of 30 Old 01-10-2011, 09:39 AM
Member
 
leech1980's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 109
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suntan View Post
Any particular notables? I haven't really paid attention to CES.

-Suntan
LG SmartTv upgrader ST600

http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/05/l...yes-on-at-ces/

It has premium content (netflix, vudu, Amazon, cinemanow, mlb, nhl), an apps store, dlna with rumored Plex support, and a web browser (no mention of flash support). yeah, that pretty much kills the roku.
leech1980 is offline  
post #7 of 30 Old 01-10-2011, 09:51 AM
Advanced Member
 
APorter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 589
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by leech1980 View Post

LG SmartTv upgrader ST600

http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/05/l...yes-on-at-ces/

It has premium content (netflix, vudu, Amazon, cinemanow, mlb, nhl), an apps store, dlna with rumored Plex support, and a web browser (no mention of flash support). yeah, that pretty much kills the roku.

No component connections.
APorter is offline  
post #8 of 30 Old 01-10-2011, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Suntan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 7,099
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by leech1980 View Post

LG SmartTv upgrader ST600

http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/05/l...yes-on-at-ces/

It has premium content (netflix, vudu, Amazon, cinemanow, mlb, nhl), an apps store, dlna with rumored Plex support, and a web browser (no mention of flash support). yeah, that pretty much kills the roku.

Does it support access to regular hulu (not huluplus)? The rest of that stuff looks rather uninteresting. Although Vudu may be nice (I haven't looked into it too much) but is it more expensive than Amazon VOD? The claimed better PQ doesn't do much for me for this application.

They seem to make a big deal of the remote, does it support traditional IR, or did they make a stupid move and only support RF? If it can't be run by my universal, it's not an option.

Lastly, what's the cost? Under $150?

Thanks.

-Suntan
Suntan is offline  
post #9 of 30 Old 01-10-2011, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Suntan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 7,099
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by APorter View Post

No component connections.

Pffft

I should have finished reading the thread. Nevermind then.

-Suntan
Suntan is offline  
post #10 of 30 Old 01-10-2011, 10:45 AM
Senior Member
 
hps70w's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 208
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by leech1980 View Post

LG SmartTv upgrader ST600

http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/05/l...yes-on-at-ces/

It has premium content (netflix, vudu, Amazon, cinemanow, mlb, nhl), an apps store, dlna with rumored Plex support, and a web browser (no mention of flash support). yeah, that pretty much kills the roku.

That is an impressive line-up of offerings, but I think I'll wait to see the price before I agree on it killing the Roku. For what you get, the price-point of the Roku boxes is pretty tough to beat.
hps70w is offline  
post #11 of 30 Old 01-10-2011, 11:10 AM
Advanced Member
 
Irishdoom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 707
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 13
The short answer to your question - No. Get a Roku, be happy.
Irishdoom is offline  
post #12 of 30 Old 01-10-2011, 07:58 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
blafarm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Does anyone know if the new LG box will do Netflix "search" --or will it only play from a preexisting Netflix queue?

Thanks
blafarm is offline  
post #13 of 30 Old 01-11-2011, 12:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
pmcd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,389
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by hps70w View Post

That is an impressive line-up of offerings, but I think I'll wait to see the price before I agree on it killing the Roku. For what you get, the price-point of the Roku boxes is pretty tough to beat.

Certainly sounds interesting, but won't be available for months. Moreover, prices haven't been determined. Having Plex in it really does add something special.

philip
pmcd is offline  
post #14 of 30 Old 01-11-2011, 01:25 AM
Member
 
eTerNiTyw2o4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 23
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by blafarm View Post

Does anyone know if the new LG box will do Netflix "search" --or will it only play from a preexisting Netflix queue?

Thanks

I'm not sure but if the current apps on LG TVs can search then I'm sure that the box can search as well.

I got to say though. Roku is the best in pure streamer. But the thing I didn't like about it was that the USB doesn't work without some hack (found on the Roku forums) and it's just there are way too many apps. It seems that Roku just tried to put as much as they can in there just so that they can say they're the best.
Yes they do have some good ones that not many does. Like Hulu+ and Crunchyroll (for anime) which I found both of these good additions. But there are some that are just out there.
eTerNiTyw2o4 is offline  
post #15 of 30 Old 01-11-2011, 08:37 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Suntan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 7,099
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmcd View Post

Having Plex in it really does add something special.

philip

What are some of the notables of Plex? I've looked at its website before, but I didn't see much real information.

Is it supposed to be a boxee type deal? Skinning online content? If so, does it offer more than the regular paid internet streamers? (Netflix, hulu+, Vudu, amazonVOD, etc.)

-Suntan
Suntan is offline  
post #16 of 30 Old 01-11-2011, 10:05 AM
Senior Member
 
hps70w's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 208
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by eTerNiTyw2o4 View Post

I got to say though. Roku is the best in pure streamer. But the thing I didn't like about it was that the USB doesn't work without some hack (found on the Roku forums) and it's just there are way too many apps. It seems that Roku just tried to put as much as they can in there just so that they can say they're the best.
Yes they do have some good ones that not many does. Like Hulu+ and Crunchyroll (for anime) which I found both of these good additions. But there are some that are just out there.

By "hack" do you mean private channel? If so, I certainly wouldn't consider private channels to be a hack by any means. They are a valuable and supported part of the Roku SDK. At any rate, Roku will be releasing an official (i.e., available in the Channel Store) USB channel in the very near future.

Too many apps? I think you're about the first person I've ever seen complain that there are too many choices out there! lol! Would you prefer they only had a couple channels? Just because a channel is available doesn't mean you have to install it. If you think Roku has a lot of "apps", then you must absolutely hate Apple's App Store or the Android Market. lol!!!
hps70w is offline  
post #17 of 30 Old 01-11-2011, 10:52 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
blafarm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by eTerNiTyw2o4 View Post

I'm not sure but if the current apps on LG TVs can search then I'm sure that the box can search as well.

I got to say though. Roku is the best in pure streamer. But the thing I didn't like about it was that the USB doesn't work without some hack (found on the Roku forums) and it's just there are way too many apps. It seems that Roku just tried to put as much as they can in there just so that they can say they're the best.
Yes they do have some good ones that not many does. Like Hulu+ and Crunchyroll (for anime) which I found both of these good additions. But there are some that are just out there.

I was under the impression (possibly mistakenly) that LG's Netflix-enabled BD Players did not support search like Roku. Frankly, I'd buy a Roku -- except for the fact that I've been told (again, possibly mistakenly) that the image quality and scaling are not as good as some Netflix-enabled BD Players. I don't know if that is true.

Network streaming is also a big goal of mine -- and I understand that Roku just released firmware that supports MP4 streaming from its USB port, which is not really what I'm looking for -- as I need network streaming. But I suppose I could make it work.
http://forums.roku.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=34817

Lastly, Roku seems to be promoting (on their home page) a new box called the 1080P-ER -- but I'll be damned if I can actually find anything on their site that actually describes the product -- or how its featureset compares to their other existing products.
blafarm is offline  
post #18 of 30 Old 01-11-2011, 11:06 AM
Senior Member
 
hps70w's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 208
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by blafarm View Post

Network streaming is also a big goal of mine -- and I understand that Roku just released firmware that supports MP4 streaming from its USB port, which is not really what I'm looking for -- as I need network streaming. But I suppose I could make it work.
http://forums.roku.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=34817

Actually, I don't think the official USB channel has been released yet. It's supposed to be coming any time now. There is a private USB channel currently available though.

There are also private channels available that enable local network streaming. Of course, you're still limited to the few file containers and codecs that are supported by the box. Also keep in mind that the Roku will require you to run an http server to serve up your local content, as the box doesn't support uPnP/DLNA, SMB, NFS, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blafarm View Post

Lastly, Roku seems to be promoting (on their home page) a new box called the 1080P-ER -- but I'll be damned if I can actually find anything on their site that actually describes the product -- or how its featureset compares to their other existing products.

Uh...I hope you're joking. But in case you aren't, that's not a Roku model. It's their clever way of saying their boxes support 1080p content (smaller, cheaper, 1080P-ER...get it?).
hps70w is offline  
post #19 of 30 Old 01-11-2011, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Suntan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 7,099
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Yes. The rokus that support 1080p are the XD and XDS. In addition to a couple of other unique features amongst them.

http://www.roku.com/roku-products#2

Honestly though, I am not aware of any real content actually available on the roku in 1080p. Amazon VOD maybe?

-Suntan
Suntan is offline  
post #20 of 30 Old 01-11-2011, 01:02 PM
Senior Member
 
hps70w's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 208
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suntan View Post

Yes. The rokus that support 1080p are the XD and XDS. In addition to a couple of other unique features amongst them.

http://www.roku.com/roku-products#2

Honestly though, I am not aware of any real content actually available on the roku in 1080p. Amazon VOD maybe?

-Suntan

The older XR model is capable of 1080p as well.

I believe the only 1080p content that is available for the Roku is from YouTube (private channel) and Vimeo. Not exactly a great selection at the moment.
hps70w is offline  
post #21 of 30 Old 01-11-2011, 02:57 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
blafarm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by hps70w View Post

Uh...I hope you're joking. But in case you aren't, that's not a Roku model. It's their clever way of saying their boxes support 1080p content (smaller, cheaper, 1080P-ER...get it?).

Boy ... do I feel stupid! I had quickly read the words "The All New Roku" -- and was in the mindset of looking for a possibly new model that might have just been released at CES. The rest is history.

Interesting about the private network channel and HTTP. Thanks for that info. The HTTP requirement along with the Roku container limitations may represent just a little more of a kludge than I am looking for.

That's why I was potentially interested in the ST600. It kind of sounded like a LG BD390 -- minus the BD drive -- which I have anecdotally heard is less than stellar in terms of compatibility with certain BD titles.

What I don't know if if the ST600 really offers Netflix "Search" -- and whether of not it truly offers PQ that is noticeably better than a Roku box -- with 20Mb/s download bandwidth .
blafarm is offline  
post #22 of 30 Old 01-20-2011, 12:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
joeydrunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: WA state
Posts: 1,752
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suntan View Post


Does it support access to regular hulu (not huluplus)? The rest of that stuff looks rather uninteresting. Although Vudu may be nice (I haven't looked into it too much) but is it more expensive than Amazon VOD? The claimed better PQ doesn't do much for me for this application.

They seem to make a big deal of the remote, does it support traditional IR, or did they make a stupid move and only support RF? If it can't be run by my universal, it's not an option.

Lastly, what's the cost? Under $150?

Thanks.

-Suntan

No setup boxes can access reg HULU, its only available on pc. Unless you can find a hack you'll be stuck with hulu plus, wich is cool besides the fact you have to pay for it.

Pioneer Kuro...your time is up...mwahahhahhha
joeydrunk is offline  
post #23 of 30 Old 01-21-2011, 10:17 AM
Member
 
frank1492's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 151
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Can I please have a quick summary here? I understand that Netflix is "promised" for the Boxee, but at the present time, is there any box that does the three services that I am most interested in: Netflix, Vudu, and Hulu? Or maybe just Vudu and Netflix (like the Magnavox BD player that Wal-Mart sells.)
Thanks.
frank1492 is offline  
post #24 of 30 Old 01-21-2011, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Suntan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 7,099
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by frank1492 View Post

Can I please have a quick summary here? I understand that Netflix is "promised" for the Boxee, but at the present time, is there any box that does the three services that I am most interested in: Netflix, Vudu, and Hulu? Or maybe just Vudu and Netflix (like the Magnavox BD player that Wal-Mart sells.)
Thanks.

Sony PS3

-Suntan
Suntan is offline  
post #25 of 30 Old 01-21-2011, 03:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
joeydrunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: WA state
Posts: 1,752
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by frank1492 View Post

Can I please have a quick summary here? I understand that Netflix is "promised" for the Boxee, but at the present time, is there any box that does the three services that I am most interested in: Netflix, Vudu, and Hulu? Or maybe just Vudu and Netflix (like the Magnavox BD player that Wal-Mart sells.)
Thanks.

Upper model, like c6900 Samsung BLURAY players do Netflix, VUDU and hulu plus, plus a lot more. They have internet@tv and Samsung apps. No offense to anyone but you should really think twice about getting the cheap magnavox from walmart. I bought one last year and it it was a nightmare. I could barely get any blurays to play on it, even old ones. When I could get one to play ,the picture wasn't good. Also finding a firmware upgrade was pretty much non exsistant. It's not really magnavox anymore, its some Japanese named website they send you to to get the update and then said they weren't upgrading anymore for any models. But I guess it could have changed since then.

Pioneer Kuro...your time is up...mwahahhahhha
joeydrunk is offline  
post #26 of 30 Old 01-27-2011, 09:41 PM
Member
 
renesis27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 117
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Suntan, have you looked at the Western Digital Media players? The WD TV Live Plus has component connections and I am thinking about getting one for my old Mitsubishi DLP that does not have HDMI. Here is the chart for the three WD models. http://www.wdc.com/en/products/homee.../mediaplayers/
renesis27 is offline  
post #27 of 30 Old 01-28-2011, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Suntan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 7,099
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by renesis27 View Post

Suntan, have you looked at the Western Digital Media players?

Yeah, I looked at it briefly. I see it is now under $100 at Amazon, which would make it cheaper than the Roku. At the time I purchased, it was pretty much the same price as the Roku w/ additional component cable.

From looking at it, does the WD have Amazon VOD or Hulu+ access? It doesn't seem like it. Although I don't presently use either, it is nice to know that they are already offered on the Roku. For example, just in case Hulu+ ever becomes something worth getting.

As I said before, I have no need for the local playback capabilities of the WD product. So that didn't interest me at all.

I did end up getting a Roku XDS for the livingroom a little while back (to compliment the Roku HD in the bedroom.) I have been happy with it.

-Suntan
Suntan is offline  
post #28 of 30 Old 01-28-2011, 09:27 PM
Member
 
frank1492's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 151
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It's very frustrating that there is no perfect device for me in the Roku/WD price range.
On Black Friday I bought a Magnavox 5130 BluRay player for $68 at WalMart that has Netflix, Vudu and Blockbuster (no Hulu or Amazon.) The BluRay quality is fine and I wanted the pairing of Vudu and Netflix. Previously I had a WD Live player (not a Plus) that gave me a player for local media, including .avi which my camera takes. All set for the living room. Now in my downstairs theater I had a Panasonic Blu-ray without streaming. As I wanted streaming of Netflix and Vudu down there as well (I prefer separate installations) and the ability to play local media (.avi) as well, I considered both a Roku and a WD Media Live Plus. The former would give me the Netflix but not the Vudu or the ability to play .avi files. The latter would let me play my files and give me Netflix, but not Vudu. I got the WD, but I still can't do Vudu. I could have gotten another Magnavox but that would have not solved the local media issue. I guess I will have to just wait and see if the Plus firmware updates will eventually include Vudu. (Not holding my breath.)
frank1492 is offline  
post #29 of 30 Old 01-29-2011, 05:36 PM
Newbie
 
jack59912's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Can't find how to start a new thread for this forum so perhaps you can help?
Want to access roku site/forums they screwed something up and i can't get sent emails and tech support requests to all the locations i can find and the only thing i got back was they assigned a case number and that was 4 days ago. Do you have any ideas?
If you can tell me how to start a new thread i will start a new thread
jack59912 is offline  
post #30 of 30 Old 09-08-2012, 02:57 PM
Member
 
seti1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 57
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
With the free channels and content available for Roku, the ease of use by anyone in your family and price point, the Roku is hard to beat. When you get bored watching online content, why not develop your own private Roku channel and stream home movies, music and photos to friends and family.
seti1 is offline  
Reply Networking, Media Servers & Content Streaming

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off