Which is best wireless router choice? Netgear N450 WNDR4000 or N300 WNDR3800 - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 416 Old 05-25-2011, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dr Goodvibes View Post

Doh! I was all set to buy a DGND3700. This is the one with an ADSL modem, 2xUSB, 128MB flash and 128MB RAM.

Now I'm considering the WNDR3800. (1xUSB, 16 MB flash and 64 MB RAM)

The reason for this is the idea of separating the access point (ADSL) and the core router.

I wasn't considering the constructs of a robust network with fail-over...at home. But it does have its merits.

More to think about.

This becomes a matter of comfort. I like things separate. But according to the Netgear techs the combined modem/router has some throughput benefits in performance. Also you can use the DGND3700 with a separate modem so if you need to change modems you could.

Key benefits of the 3800 will be the Clear Channel technology. So if you want the best wireless performance get that. Eventually the will be a DGND3800 but it wont be for quite a while. So for now you will need to choose wireless performance versus modem/router integration. Also the 3800 has some other features the 3700 does not like usb printer sharing if that is important for you.

Bob Silver
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post #122 of 416 Old 05-28-2011, 07:18 AM
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Hi Bob, is Netgear still on track to release the wndr3800 in the next few weeks?

Also, if two 3800s were set up on the same network is it safe to assume the clear channel selection algorithm will not cause the two routers to conflict with each other over the remaining clear channels? My neighborhood bandwidth is really congested and I'm wondering if the two routers might continuously fight each other resulting in them constantly switching channels. Will the two routers play nice? Anything you can share on the channel selection logic?

I'm assuming Clear Channel Selection works on both 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz bands?

Thanks!
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post #123 of 416 Old 05-28-2011, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by braddehaan View Post

Hi Bob, is Netgear still on track to release the wndr3800 in the next few weeks?

Also, if two 3800s were set up on the same network is it safe to assume the clear channel selection algorithm will not cause the two routers to conflict with each other over the remaining clear channels? My neighborhood bandwidth is really congested and I'm wondering if the two routers might continuously fight each other resulting in them constantly switching channels. Will the two routers play nice? Anything you can share on the channel selection logic?

I'm assuming Clear Channel Selection works on both 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz bands?

Thanks!

I am going to need to answer this in two parts. Unfortunately the 3800 ship will slip. Netgear has decided to increase the memory in the 3800 for improvements in performance. Most notably with respect to Time Machine support. That said the word now is unit will not hit stores (BTW it will be only Frys and Amazon) in July. Most likely toward the end of the month.

Regarding the tech question you asked I will need to get back to you after conferring with the product manager. So that wont be till next week sometime.

Bob Silver
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post #124 of 416 Old 05-29-2011, 10:50 PM
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Bob, do you have any idea on optimal settings to stream my Blu-Ray movies from my NAS to my Dune media player. I ask, because I get stuttering or audio dropout unless I go wired.

I have a WNDR3700 and a Linksys WET610N. I read in several places that enabling the "Video Network" made things worse and I can attest to that. However, I still get the occasional audio loss. When I connect a 50' CAT5e to my switch in my entertainment center to my WNDR3700, I get no loss whatsoever. My Synolgy DSM status shows anywhere from 3-5 MBps, so this should not be a problem. There are a bunch of settings such as QoS and/or WMM (WiFi Multimedia) that I'm not sure what to set to.
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post #125 of 416 Old 05-30-2011, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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In my experience you really need a wired connection to stream BD without stutter. The only wireless devices capable are the Netgear 3DHD products which include the 500mbs powerline or the WNHD3004 Bridge. Best bet and least costly is to run the cat 5 cable.

Current wireless (wifi) spec (of any) are not really fast enough.

Oh a BD requires about 30-40mbs to stream without issues.

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post #126 of 416 Old 05-30-2011, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by bobsilver View Post
In my experience you really need a wired connection to stream BD without stutter. The only wireless devices capable are the Netgear 3DHD products which include the 500mbs powerline or the WNHD3004 Bridge. Best bet and least costly is to run the cat 5 cable.

Current wireless (wifi) spec (of any) are not really fast enough.

Oh a BD requires about 30-40mbs to stream without issues.

Bob Silver
Ok, thanks Bob. If I could run a line, I would. Don't have a real choice. Saw the WNHD3004 at Frys today and got it to try it out. Never really considered the powerline option as I haven't read good things about that either.

It just kills me that at N600 this can't be done. If you factor in over 50% overhead you should still have plenty of bandwidth.
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post #127 of 416 Old 05-30-2011, 11:47 PM
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Cool Bananas.

I was considering the DGND3700 Dual Core (400 MHz each) processor with 128 MB Flash and 128 MB RAM.

Now looking at two separate routers, one for each task(ADSL and core routing)

When one compared the DGND3700 to the WNDR3800 with 680 MHz MIPS 32-bit processor, 16 MB flash and 64 MB RAM, it doesn't look so attractive in the processing stakes.

The news of the memory increase reported by Bob Silver, means that the WNDR3800 will look that much better on paper.

At least home routers are not maintaining large dynamic routing tables, so I guess they can get away with less memory, whereas Internet routers will probably need that much more to maintain external links/routing.

Now if we could get two USB ports on a WNDR3800...
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post #128 of 416 Old 05-31-2011, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amro View Post

Ok, thanks Bob. If I could run a line, I would. Don't have a real choice. Saw the WNHD3004 at Frys today and got it to try it out. Never really considered the powerline option as I haven't read good things about that either.

It just kills me that at N600 this can't be done. If you factor in over 50% overhead you should still have plenty of bandwidth.

As I think I mentioned earlier in the thread I can personally vouch for the netgear 500mb powerline stuff working just fine for this application... I consistently see 70-80 mb/sec using it to stream to my Dune.

(which obviously is tons less than 500 mb, but plenty fast for perfect stutter free bluray)

The WNHD3004 might work fine too, but costs about double what the powerline solution does.
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post #129 of 416 Old 05-31-2011, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kurtz9 View Post

As I think I mentioned earlier in the thread I can personally vouch for the netgear 500mb powerline stuff working just fine for this application... I consistently see 70-80 mb/sec using it to stream to my Dune.

(which obviously is tons less than 500 mb, but plenty fast for perfect stutter free bluray)

The WNHD3004 might work fine too, but costs about double what the powerline solution does.

Powerline is a great option when it works. The issue has to do with the wiring and noise on your ac lines. So you might want to give it a try as well. It is less expensive. And again when it works it works great.

Bob Silver
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post #130 of 416 Old 05-31-2011, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by amro View Post

Ok, thanks Bob. If I could run a line, I would. Don't have a real choice. Saw the WNHD3004 at Frys today and got it to try it out. Never really considered the powerline option as I haven't read good things about that either.

It just kills me that at N600 this can't be done. If you factor in over 50% overhead you should still have plenty of bandwidth.

Unfortunately the specs are really theoretical limits. And then the performance will vary widely based on other factors like noise and interference. Wifi is great for everything EXCEPT high bandwidth video like BD rips.

Bob
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post #131 of 416 Old 05-31-2011, 09:38 PM
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New here, would the 3700 be a good choice ($79 refurbed) for someone who will have 2-3 devices most likely wired and then 2 devices over wifi?

The wired devices will be an HTPC, PS3 and Xbox360.

The wifi devices will be another HTPC(needs wifi adapter) and a laptop(g wifi not n).
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post #132 of 416 Old 06-01-2011, 05:03 AM
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Let me throw this at you. Someone recommended that I try my Vaio laptop on the same switch the Dune is on. My Vaio has Total Home Theater and lo and behold it has no trouble with the same movie, same chapter. It hummed right along from the same source the Dune was playing from. I find this to be very strange.
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post #133 of 416 Old 06-01-2011, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stealth1 View Post

New here, would the 3700 be a good choice ($79 refurbed) for someone who will have 2-3 devices most likely wired and then 2 devices over wifi?

The wired devices will be an HTPC, PS3 and Xbox360.

The wifi devices will be another HTPC(needs wifi adapter) and a laptop(g wifi not n).

The 3700 is a great router and at $79 I would grab it. You will be very happy. It will serve your needs perfectly.

Bob Silver
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post #134 of 416 Old 06-01-2011, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by braddehaan View Post

Hi Bob, is Netgear still on track to release the wndr3800 in the next few weeks?

Also, if two 3800s were set up on the same network is it safe to assume the clear channel selection algorithm will not cause the two routers to conflict with each other over the remaining clear channels? My neighborhood bandwidth is really congested and I'm wondering if the two routers might continuously fight each other resulting in them constantly switching channels. Will the two routers play nice? Anything you can share on the channel selection logic?

I'm assuming Clear Channel Selection works on both 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz bands?

Thanks!

OK here is the answer for using multiple WNDR 3800 routers and the impact Clear Channel will have on interference. The answer is they have been designed and tested in multiple configurations so they will in fact play nice together. This is directly from the design engineer so here you are.

"Since ACS/DCS algorithm uses board noise (very unique to each UUT) as one of the main parameter to select boot up channel, turning on 2 WNDA3800 will not have perpetual looping.

We tested this case by turning 2/3 APs at the same time and the found that each AP selected different channels."

Regarding working on both 2.4 and 5ghz here is the response from engineering

Clear channel selection works on both 2.4 & 5GHz bands but due to 5GHz DFS (Dynamic Frequency Selection) requirements (to avoid Military Radar) it is limited to only Boot up clear channel selection.




Bob Silver
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post #135 of 416 Old 06-02-2011, 06:48 AM
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Thanks for this great, active thread. I'm also thinking of the 3800. Someone above mentioned wanting two USB ports. But is it possible to use a USB hub? I hope to connect 1) a multi-function printer and 2) my Time Machine drive, freeing my Macbook from two more wires. Can this be done? I didn't find a clear answer in the specs. Thanks!
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post #136 of 416 Old 06-02-2011, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes the 3800 can support multiple USB devices through the use of a USB hub. I plan to do that myself with a printer and hard drive.

Bob Silver
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post #137 of 416 Old 06-02-2011, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by bobsilver View Post
Yes the 3800 can support multiple USB devices through the use of a USB hub. I plan to do that myself with a printer and hard drive.

Bob Silver
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So, comparison, does the N450 do that? Any hub you have experience with?
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post #138 of 416 Old 06-02-2011, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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No the wndr4000 only supports 1 USB hard drive. It does not support printer sharing.
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post #139 of 416 Old 06-02-2011, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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So, comparison, does the N450 do that? Any hub you have experience with?
You will be able to use any usb hub. I would be sure it is a USB 2.0 though.
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post #140 of 416 Old 06-02-2011, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bobsilver View Post
No the wndr4000 only supports 1 USB hard drive. It does not support printer sharing.
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Originally Posted by bobsilver View Post
You will be able to use any usb hub. I would be sure it is a USB 2.0 though.
Color me confused. No printer involved. Will the WNDR4000 allow a USB 2.0 hub with multiple USB RAM drives? I have a 16Gb drive connected now that functions great as a DLNA server device. A 1Tb WD drive didn't work though.
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post #141 of 416 Old 06-02-2011, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Color me confused. No printer involved. Will the WNDR4000 allow a USB 2.0 hub with multiple USB RAM drives? I have a 16Gb drive connected now that functions great as a DLNA server device. A 1Tb WD drive didn't work though.

I dont believe (but I could be wrong) you can use more then 1 drive on the wndr4000. Did you try using the 1tb WD by itself? And if so why would you want to use the 16gb flash with the 1 TB anyway?
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post #142 of 416 Old 06-03-2011, 05:15 AM
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I dont believe (but I could be wrong) you can use more then 1 drive on the wndr4000. Did you try using the 1tb WD by itself? And if so why would you want to use the 16gb flash with the 1 TB anyway?

First thing I did was take the WD out of the box and plug it into the router. This was my error. Looks like it's shipped unformatted and not considered valid by the wndr4000. I decided to backup my computer's drives using the supplied software which worked fine.

Before posting this, I plugged it back in and the router now sees the drive and everything on it. Happy ending. I like the router a lot. I still might try to use a USB hub since they are cheap and I like playing with my toys.
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post #143 of 416 Old 06-03-2011, 06:32 AM
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Just noticed the WNDRMAC is now part of the lineup on the Netgear website, however, the specs aren't as detailed as those of the WNDR3800. Can you compare/contrast the two in terms of processor, memory, QoS, WMM, and anything else notable? It's not explicitly stated, but I have to assume the WNDRMAC can also host a printer + HDD with Time Machine using a hub. Thanks!
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post #144 of 416 Old 06-03-2011, 09:47 AM
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I currently have the Netgear WNR3500L which has been reliable so far.
Interested in the WNDR3800 because of USB filesharing features for my media players.

I'm running dd-wrt on the current WNR3500L cause the stock oem GUI was so dummed down it just got in the way. Only useful feature it had was the USB sharing- which kind of got lost (without doing way too much extra work to get it going) with the dd-wrt firmware.

So I guess my question(s) about the WNDR3800 running stock FW are:
1) Is WOL for hosts supported? Couldn't even find this feature in the oem FW for the WNR3500L- but is supported and working perfectly in the dd-wrt FW.
2) Port forwarding with proper "from" and "to" port support and "click to enable" feature for occasional use?
3) Static Leases for DHCP clients?
4) MAC filtering for wireless clients?
5) Radio TX power adjust (ex: 1 - 251mW) via GUI?
6) Remote router management access restricted to user defined/trusted outside IP address range?
7) Using the WNDR3800 as my main router- should I expect any issues using my existing WNR3500L as a simple wireless AP at the far end of the house?

Sorry for all the questions- but these are all features I currently use on the WNR3500L and really can't afford to lose if I go with the WNDR3800 on stock FW.

Thanks!!

"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure...."

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post #145 of 416 Old 06-03-2011, 02:04 PM
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I bought the 4000. I thought mistakenly the nic in my new Dell was the intel 6300 which a 450mbs nic. It turns out the Dell's nic is a 6250 AGN. It has the kitchen sink full of features including WIDI, and WiMax but is a 300mbs nic.

I was coming from a D-Link DIR 825.

The Pro on the 4000 is that the range is greater. the downside is that unlike the D-Link it will not stream HD Cable TV content without constant breakup. The D-Link would pretty much stream HD Cable without any breakup but would drop the link when it was at the end of its rangel. I can go all the way to the end of my yard and the 4000 works fine for the internet.. the connection with the D-Link would drop just outside the doorl.

But inside the house the D-Link streams HD Cable pretty much without any burps. I can stream OTA HD through either router perfectly.

Since I don't have the 450mbs nic in my notebook like I assumed, I wonder if I have the wrong product. Bob, you seem to be very high on the 3800 a product that can't be purcahsed versus the 4000 which can be. I would really like the range of the 4000 but not at the expense of good bandwith.

Any idea when Netgear will offer a triple stream nic adapter I can use in the notebook? The D-Link has external antennas which offers the positibility of improving the range. Why is there no provision for external antennas on these new routers? Are we sacrificing performance for appearance's sake?

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post #146 of 416 Old 06-03-2011, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I bought the 4000. I thought mistakenly the nic in my new Dell was the intel 6300 which a 450mbs nic. It turns out the Dell's nic is a 6250 AGN. It has the kitchen sink full of features including WIDI, and WiMax but is a 300mbs nic.

I was coming from a D-Link DIR 825.

The Pro on the 4000 is that the range is greater. the downside is that unlike the D-Link it will not stream HD Cable TV content without constant breakup. The D-Link would pretty much stream HD Cable without any breakup but would drop the link when it was at the end of its rangel. I can go all the way to the end of my yard and the 4000 works fine for the internet.. the connection with the D-Link would drop just outside the doorl.

But inside the house the D-Link streams HD Cable pretty much without any burps. I can stream OTA HD through either router perfectly.

Since I don't have the 450mbs nic in my notebook like I assumed, I wonder if I have the wrong product. Bob, you seem to be very high on the 3800 a product that can't be purcahsed versus the 4000 which can be. I would really like the range of the 4000 but not at the expense of good bandwith.

Any idea when Netgear will offer a triple stream nic adapter I can use in the notebook? The D-Link has external antennas which offers the positibility of improving the range. Why is there no provision for external antennas on these new routers? Are we sacrificing performance for appearance's sake?

First off the antenna design and the rf amplifiers in the current generation of Netgear routers are all optimized for one an another. Changing the antenna in any way would negatively impact the overall performance. So that is why there are no external antenna options. That said the built in antenna can limit optimum router placement so it is clearly not a perfect solution.

Regarding the playback of your hd content I am a bit perturbed by your results. You state that you can stream OTA fine but not content from the cable box. Generally the OTA will be the highest bandwidth so to me if anything you should see the reverse. Also how are you streaming? What is doing the ip conversion and what client are you receiving it on? Need more info here.

Since you dont have a 450nic in your laptop you obviously dont get the benefit of the newer tech in the 4000. The reason I like the 3800 is that it is actually has more advanced technology through use of Clear Channel and other features. Clear Channel is designed for the 2.4 and 5g bands so all of our current wifi products will see the benefit. It also will have printer sharing and Apple Time Machine support if those things are important to you.

Keep in mind too that all of the newer n450 products (Netgear/linksys) are using the same chipset. This is the 1st generation of these higher performance chips. So like everything else in technology V1 will not be as good as V2 and on. But we are looking at at least 12 months before we see a V2 of that type of product.

My suggestion is this. I would look at either the 3800 which will be available end of July or a 3700 now. The 3700 can save you some money and is what the 3800 is based on. You will get the video mode capability in the 3700 (as well as in the 3800) which can detect video signals and prioritize bandwidth for it. If you purchased where you can try and return it I would give that a whirl. Otherwise I would wait for the 3800 if you can.

Bob Silver
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post #147 of 416 Old 06-03-2011, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Just noticed the WNDRMAC is now part of the lineup on the Netgear website, however, the specs aren't as detailed as those of the WNDR3800. Can you compare/contrast the two in terms of processor, memory, QoS, WMM, and anything else notable? It's not explicitly stated, but I have to assume the WNDRMAC can also host a printer + HDD with Time Machine using a hub. Thanks!

The WNDRMAC is going to very close to a WNDR3700 with TimeMachine support. It is being codeveloped with the 3800. But will not have the other features the 3800 will have. It will be at $129 price point versus $169 for the 3800. It is really designed to offer a lower entry point then what Apple offers or the 3800.

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post #148 of 416 Old 06-03-2011, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by replayrob View Post

I currently have the Netgear WNR3500L which has been reliable so far.
Interested in the WNDR3800 because of USB filesharing features for my media players.

I'm running dd-wrt on the current WNR3500L cause the stock oem GUI was so dummed down it just got in the way. Only useful feature it had was the USB sharing- which kind of got lost (without doing way too much extra work to get it going) with the dd-wrt firmware.

So I guess my question(s) about the WNDR3800 running stock FW are:
1) Is WOL for hosts supported? Couldn't even find this feature in the oem FW for the WNR3500L- but is supported and working perfectly in the dd-wrt FW.
2) Port forwarding with proper "from" and "to" port support and "click to enable" feature for occasional use?
3) Static Leases for DHCP clients?
4) MAC filtering for wireless clients?
5) Radio TX power adjust (ex: 1 - 251mW) via GUI?
6) Remote router management access restricted to user defined/trusted outside IP address range?
7) Using the WNDR3800 as my main router- should I expect any issues using my existing WNR3500L as a simple wireless AP at the far end of the house?

Sorry for all the questions- but these are all features I currently use on the WNR3500L and really can't afford to lose if I go with the WNDR3800 on stock FW.

Thanks!!

The WNDR3800 will also have the opensource versions of FW – DD-WRT, OpenWRT and Tomato very soon after launch. All will be posted on www.myopenrouter.com


Bob Silver
Netgear
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post #149 of 416 Old 06-04-2011, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsilver View Post

The WNDR3800 will also have the opensource versions of FW - DD-WRT, OpenWRT and Tomato very soon after launch. All will be posted on www.myopenrouter.com


Bob Silver
Netgear

Thanks Bob,
But... I was hoping to avoid using 2nd party FW on the WNDR3800 because the 2nd party FW makes it very difficult to use native USB sharing.

If you don't mind- could you apply my questions to only the stock FW for the WNDR3800?

Thanks again... Rob

"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure...."

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post #150 of 416 Old 06-05-2011, 01:16 AM
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I need a new router -- my old Belkin is not cutting it. The WNDR3800 looks ideal, esp. with the printer sharing feature. But it isnt for sale; netgear doesn't say when available. Anybody know the release date?

I also am thinking of the new netgear range extender, the WN3000RP - mostly to get a decent signal in a third floor open loft. Anyone have experience using that device?
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