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post #1 of 37 Old 03-29-2011, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

I'm trying to get wireless 1080p streaming on my WDTV but haven't had any luck yet. My NAS is a Acer Aspire Home H340 WHS NAS. I've got a D-Link DIR-655 Wireless N gigabit router connected to my internet, main PC, and NAS over ethernet. I've got a TrendNet TEW-644UB wireless adapter plugged into my WDTV. I've also got WD LiveWire Powerline reading 130-180Mbps in their utility.

USB --> WDTV = OK
NAS --> Router --> WDTV = OK
NAS --> Router --> Wireless N --> WDTV = Stutter
NAS --> Router --> LiveWire --> WDTV = Stutter
NAS --> LiveWire --> WDTV = Stutter

Wireless N and LiveWire both seem to be too slow for the media I'm playing. The media is encoded at around around 15-20Mbps. When copying a file from my NAS to my laptop over Wireless N I get around 12-15Mbps. When copying from NAS to laptop over LiveWire I get 30Mbps (it should work but doesn't!).

I can't move the router any closer to my home theatre set up and the wife won't let me run cables.

Help me Obiwan, you're my only hope!
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post #2 of 37 Old 03-29-2011, 01:32 PM
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Streaming lossless 1080p wirelessly is pretty impossible, IMO, regardless of what some router manufacturers (e.g. Netgear) or others might have you believe. And wireless-n, in most instances, won't provide stable enough bandwidth for stutter-free experience. Are the files lossless? If so, it really won't work. But I think it might be possible with some lossy files...
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post #3 of 37 Old 03-29-2011, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jcfay View Post

Streaming lossless 1080p wirelessly is pretty impossible, IMO



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Originally Posted by jcfay View Post

Are the files lossless? If so, it really won't work. But I think it might be possible with some lossy files...

No, they're compressed. I "tested" them by looking at the bandwidth consumption when they were playing. It was using around 15-20Mbps which seems about normal for 1080p.
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post #4 of 37 Old 03-29-2011, 01:35 PM
 
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nothing is impossible! I have told my son that before. However, I don't know of ANYONE, on ANY forum who streams 1080p wirelessly consistently without issues...
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post #5 of 37 Old 03-29-2011, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by streamerlover View Post

nothing is impossible! I have told my son that before. However, I don't know of ANYONE, on ANY forum who streams 1080p wirelessly consistently without issues...

So how do I convince my wife to run wires all over the place?

It's a rental so I can't punch holes in the walls...
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post #6 of 37 Old 03-29-2011, 02:31 PM
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Try MoCA adapters which is used over the existing coax. They will work fine.

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post #7 of 37 Old 03-29-2011, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by streamerlover View Post

nothing is impossible! I have told my son that before. However, I don't know of ANYONE, on ANY forum who streams 1080p wirelessly consistently without issues...

Yes it is , try striking a match on a lump of non frozen Jello!! , nows thats impossible!

Ok I know its off topic , but it is indeed not possible because of science..

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post #8 of 37 Old 03-29-2011, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Try MoCA adapters which is used over the existing coax. They will work fine.

Won't they suffer from the same problems as the PowerLine adapter?
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post #9 of 37 Old 03-29-2011, 03:22 PM
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Well, you could also upgrade your powerline adapters. I have a pair of the new "500 Mb/s" Netgear adapters, and they provide me with actual throughput of 80-110 Mb/s on average. First off, never trust any utility that is supposed to gauge the throughput of the adapters. So even though it says you're getting 130-180 you're not (obviously). They're duplex, so the max they'll get anyway is 100 (100 each way, which they market as "200") but always less. But if you upgrade to the 500s, you could get throughput at my levels, or potentially even a bit higher (if you're lucky). And like aaron said, if you've got Coax at both sites you could go with the MoCA adapters too (although I have no experience with those).

But although some folks have had some luck streaming some hi-def video (see some other similar posts in this forum), by and large wireless-n will not stream 1080p, IMO.
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post #10 of 37 Old 03-29-2011, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jcfay View Post

I have a pair of the new "500 Mb/s" Netgear adapters, and they provide me with actual throughput of 80-110 Mb/s on average.

I heard otherwise in reviews, it's good to hear this from first hand experience.

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And like aaron said, if you've got Coax at both sites you could go with the MoCA adapters too (although I have no experience with those).

I've got coax at both sites but the adapters cost around $200 CAD which is double the price of the PowerLine adapters. It's a pretty expensive experiment...
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post #11 of 37 Old 03-29-2011, 04:26 PM
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I am able to stream 1080p up to 56Mbps reliably with my set up. This is over 65 feet through 3 walls. I have to use a specific router with a specific wireless bridge with wmm turned on. This only works on one specific brand of streamer also only over NFS. I have been able to repeat this for 4 clients.
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post #12 of 37 Old 03-29-2011, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mlknez View Post

I am able to stream 1080p up to 56Mbps reliably with my set up. This is over 65 feet through 3 walls. I have to use a specific router with a specific wireless bridge with wmm turned on. This only works on one specific brand of streamer also only over NFS. I have been able to repeat this for 4 clients.

Can you describe your set up? I was planning on trying NFS with WHS...
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post #13 of 37 Old 03-29-2011, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Pie77 View Post

Can you describe your set up? I was planning on trying NFS with WHS...

Dune 3 and Smart Series Streamers - NFS mounts, torrents disabled
Linksys E3000 with 5mhz radio set to n only and wmm enabled
Linksys WET610n Wireless Bridge wmm enabled

Storage can be either:
Windows 7 with Allegro NFS server
Windows 2008 with NFS server services enabled
Netgear ReadyNAS PRO - NFS shares
Netgear ReadyNAS Ultra - NFS shares
Thecus N4100 pro and up - NFS shares
most Synology NAS products - NFS shares
most QNAP products - NFS shares
All NetApp products - NFS shares

I have had many issues with WHS mainly because of the background services. If you can hunt down and disable almost all of the services, then you can get decent throughput. At that point, there are not many differences between it and Windows 7 client anyway.
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post #14 of 37 Old 03-29-2011, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mlknez View Post

Dune 3 and Smart Series Streamers - NFS mounts, torrents disabled

Does the Dune 3 support full HD audio? I thought that it didn't for some reason... Since I don't normally monitor throughput while I'm viewing films, what are the ranges of files sizes? Are you able to stream full blu-rays, lossless?
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post #15 of 37 Old 03-29-2011, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jcfay View Post

Does the Dune 3 support full HD audio? I thought that it didn't for some reason... Since I don't normally monitor throughput while I'm viewing films, what are the ranges of files sizes? Are you able to stream full blu-rays, lossless?

The Dune 3 series was the first to support ALL hi-def audio formats and bitrates. It is still the only one with a full blu-ray player license and does the best job of full menu support. There is no limit on file size playback currently
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post #16 of 37 Old 03-29-2011, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mlknez View Post

The Dune 3 series was the first to support ALL hi-def audio formats and bitrates. It is still the only one with a full blu-ray player license and does the best job of full menu support. There is no limit on file size playback currently

Oops, I think I was thinking of the Boxee. That's what you get from a guy with 2 Popcorn Hours...
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post #17 of 37 Old 03-30-2011, 08:40 AM
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Make sure to stream with a low-overhead protocol. I find UPNP (http) and NFS pretty good, but SMB not so much.

Also make sure your movies are packed in a low-overhead container. MKV is good.

I havent been able to fully confirm it, but from testing it seems that extra audio tracks get streamed even if they are not playing. Maybe someone can confirm this? But anyway, to be on the safe side I always strip away extra tracks so it is just the feature and one audio track.

Also the buffer is very important. Maybe WDTV has crap or very small buffer. I find XBMC on a HTPC very good.

Finally you just have to totally streamline your wifi network. Make sure there is no g devices slowing you down if your network is supposed to be n. Do some tests to see if mixed mode is faster or slower than pure n (sometimes the results are opposite of what you expect). Check what channels your neighbours are on and try and find some empty space. etc

I have a £30 wifi router and can stream 1080p rips perfectly (8-16Mbps video with a single 1500kbps audio) , but full-BD is out of the question for me. Maybe you will fare better.
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post #18 of 37 Old 03-30-2011, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by elario View Post

Make sure to stream with a low-overhead protocol. I find UPNP (http) and NFS pretty good, but SMB not so much.

UPnP doesn't support MKV. When I use it WDTV doesn't list any MKV files.

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Also make sure your movies are packed in a low-overhead container. MKV is good.

Mine are MKV.

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Originally Posted by elario View Post

Also the buffer is very important. Maybe WDTV has crap or very small buffer. I find XBMC on a HTPC very good.

I'm thinking about ditching the WDTV and going for XBMC on AppleTV and abandoning the lofty goal of wireless 1080p.

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Finally you just have to totally streamline your wifi network. Make sure there is no g devices slowing you down if your network is supposed to be n. Do some tests to see if mixed mode is faster or slower than pure n (sometimes the results are opposite of what you expect). Check what channels your neighbours are on and try and find some empty space. etc

There are a TON of other signals floating around. Going 5Ghz might be the best bet but that means a new router..

I can't disable g because I want to use my iPhone on the router as well.

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Originally Posted by elario View Post

I have a £30 wifi router and can stream 1080p rips perfectly (8-16Mbps video with a single 1500kbps audio) , but full-BD is out of the question for me. Maybe you will fare better.

What router do you have?
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post #19 of 37 Old 03-30-2011, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elario View Post

Make sure to stream with a low-overhead protocol. I find UPNP (http) and NFS pretty good, but SMB not so much.

Also make sure your movies are packed in a low-overhead container. MKV is good.

I havent been able to fully confirm it, but from testing it seems that extra audio tracks get streamed even if they are not playing. Maybe someone can confirm this? But anyway, to be on the safe side I always strip away extra tracks so it is just the feature and one audio track.

Also the buffer is very important. Maybe WDTV has crap or very small buffer. I find XBMC on a HTPC very good.

Finally you just have to totally streamline your wifi network. Make sure there is no g devices slowing you down if your network is supposed to be n. Do some tests to see if mixed mode is faster or slower than pure n (sometimes the results are opposite of what you expect). Check what channels your neighbours are on and try and find some empty space. etc

I have a £30 wifi router and can stream 1080p rips perfectly (8-16Mbps video with a single 1500kbps audio) , but full-BD is out of the question for me. Maybe you will fare better.

SMB should be fine. I've never had any issues with it with my media players,

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post #20 of 37 Old 03-30-2011, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pie77 View Post

UPnP doesn't support MKV. When I use it WDTV doesn't list any MKV files.


Mine are MKV.

Unfortunate you are using MKV. I am streaming full bitrate BD.m2ts over a pair of Netgear AV200s to a WD Live+ using DLNA/UPnP protocol. SMB protocol for the same files stutters badly enough to be unwatchable and I don't believe the WD Live+ supports NFS.

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post #21 of 37 Old 03-30-2011, 10:40 AM
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There should really be a sticky at the top of this forum titled:

"You can't reliably stream 1080p over wireless"

Then people could put in other options like moca or the dedicated netgear device. People apparently don't like doing searches for the answer to this question as it comes up a lot.

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post #22 of 37 Old 03-30-2011, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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There should really be a sticky at the top of this forum titled:

"You can't reliably stream wireless over 1080P"

Then people could put in other options like moca or the dedicated netgear device. People apparently don't like doing searches for the answer to this question as it comes up a lot.

I consider MoCA and PowerLine to be "wireless" since they don't require running new cables. My question is essentially "How do I stream 1080p locally without running new cables?".
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post #23 of 37 Old 03-30-2011, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
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I consider MoCA and PowerLine to be "wireless" since they don't require running new cables. My question is essentially "How do I stream 1080p locally without running new cables?".

I gave you the tested answers but you need to have specific equipment and settings. If you are unwilling to invest a small* amount to get it done, then there is nothing further to be done.

WDTV is not good for high-bitrate files
The Cisco router that I mentioned has 2 radios and you could still have your other devices use the alternate radio
The container is not really an issue
WMM is required to insure a steady stream over wireless with no stutter
NFS has lower overhead than SMB although SMB can still be used by the Dune with positive results (SMB implementations vary by streamer)
A quality, low-latency storage device is mandatory

*small being relative of course considering the cost of retrofit wiring, repair and hair dye to color the grey
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post #24 of 37 Old 03-30-2011, 12:16 PM
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Won't they suffer from the same problems as the PowerLine adapter?

Generally speaking (I'm no expert by any means), I don't believe MoCA adapters have the same common issues that powerline adapters do because there are less variables involved. It's pretty much just coax from point a to point b, with maybe a few splitters here and there. You don't have the other sources of potential interference that can come into play with powerline adapters (all the other "stuff" plugged into your outlets, cross-phase issues, etc.).

That being said, satellite TV can cause interference issues with MoCA. But if there's no satellite involved, I think overall MoCA is more universally reliable compared to powerline adapters which are more dependent on how your house is wired, what other appliances are connected and where, etc. I know I didn't have any luck whatsoever with powerline adapters, but MoCA streams full BD rips from my WHS to my Dune using SMB without any issues. Yes, it's more expensive than powerline, but if you can't run Cat5e/6 cabling, it's a very solid solution.
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post #25 of 37 Old 03-30-2011, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I gave you the tested answers but you need to have specific equipment and settings.

And I greatly appreciate your answer, it's very useful!
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post #26 of 37 Old 03-30-2011, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pie77 View Post

UPnP doesn't support MKV. When I use it WDTV doesn't list any MKV files.

I can stream MKVs using UPNP just fine.

Windows Media Player (acting as the UPNP server) will do it just fine once you make a small registry tweak.

Also XBMC (again acting as the UPNP server) will do it natively.

Quote:


What router do you have?

It is just a cheap TP-Link 300mbps n modem/router, I can get sustained one-way throughput of about 40-50Mbps on the 2.4GHz band, and using only 20Mhz channel width. I find that enough to stream a 1080p rip even if there are other people on the network browsing etc. Like I said before, I am only talking about rips (8-16Mbps abr) and not full BDs.

I am just using my example of a router because it is cheap and most enthusiasts would call it junk. So if I can do it on a cheap router, it should be possible on a good one like yours.
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post #27 of 37 Old 03-30-2011, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I can stream MKVs using UPNP just fine.

Windows Media Player (acting as the UPNP server) will do it just fine once you make a small registry tweak.

Also XBMC (again acting as the UPNP server) will do it natively.

I guess Windows Home Server can't do MKV over UPnP? For whatever reason, I only see MKV when I browse the folders directly.
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post #28 of 37 Old 03-30-2011, 04:20 PM
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I guess Windows Home Server can't do MKV over UPnP? For whatever reason, I only see MKV when I browse the folders directly.
I don't know about WHS im afraid. I have MKVs streaming from Vista and Win7 though, both just using the built-in Windows Media streaming.

In both of those, it does not add MKVs to your library by default but it is just a registry edit to make it work. Some codec packs do the registry tweak themselves I think.

I prefer to use XBMC as a UPNP server because it uses the movie posters as thumbnails and lets you navigate by the library folders (genre, year etc)
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post #29 of 37 Old 03-30-2011, 05:27 PM - Thread Starter
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In both of those, it does not add MKVs to your library by default but it is just a registry edit to make it work. Some codec packs do the registry tweak themselves I think.
Hmm, I'll have to see if I can find out what to add.

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I prefer to use XBMC as a UPNP server because it uses the movie posters as thumbnails and lets you navigate by the library folders (genre, year etc)
Can you run XBMC on WHS? If so, maybe that will solve a lot of my problems...
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post #30 of 37 Old 03-30-2011, 06:35 PM
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Hi,

I have been able to stream 1080p ISO videos flawlessly from NAS to WD TV Live Plus through the Wireless N with 5Ghz band and dual channel. I have the same Trendnet TEW-644UB Wireless USB adapter and Linksys E2000 router. Too bad your D-link DIR-655 router does not support 5Ghz band. If you want, you could try out the D-link DIR-825 which supports 5Ghz band.
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